Goblin Charbelcher

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Ulka
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Post by Ulka » 3 years ago

With the Introduction of the Double faced Cards in this new Zendikar Set Im starting to look back at Goblin Charbelcher as a Deck possibility as now as we can get the mass amount of lands to use but they arent land when flipping through our deck.

So far the Deck is a bit of a mess but so far this Is what I have:
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I'd Love Feedback and Ideas if anyone has them.
Modern: Goryo's Gifts | Heartless Architect | Soul Sisters | MonoGreen Devotion
Pauper: Blackened Eggs | Zombies | Domain Zoo | Sultai Teachings | Jund Gardens

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Ulka
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Post by Ulka » 3 years ago

Okay So I spent some time thinking on this today and am realizing I should have a main deck backup plan in case belcher doesn't work. I'm liking the Idea of cutting down on land searching due to use having more lands to play from the spells and adding in some either Wurmcoil Engines to provide a solid beatstick plan


So currently as it stands Im looking at dropping:
- 4 Renegade Map
- 4 Caravan Vigil
- 4 Khalni Ambush
- 3 Wall of Roots
- 2 Forest

Adding
+ 2 Irencrag Feat
+ 4 Goblin Engineer
+ 4 Spikefield Hazard
+ 4 Mishra's Bauble
+ 2 Wurmcoil Engine
+ 1 Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge


Sideboard will need:
3 Veil of Summer
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Force of Vigor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Leyline of Sanctity





The other Big thing I was thinking about was if I was to add Blue to this chaos. I could drop 1 forest and the stomping ground and run 2 Ketria Triome. this would allow for some fixing but also allows me to run Emry, Lurker of the Loch Which becomes a very solid way to dig through our deck with Mishra's Bauble. Also Running blue would allow for a Trinket Mage to be played which lets me tutor up Amulet of Vigor which makes our DoubleFaced Lands enter untapped allowing us to play at a decent speed. In doing this I would maybe need to drop 2-3 of the various DF Lands to add in Blue DF lands. Currently only Umara Wizard // Umara Skyfalls has been spoiled but I mean 2 of the Wizard wouldn't be the end of the world. also to be added in if I did this: Manamorphose due to the need to fix from time to time.
Modern: Goryo's Gifts | Heartless Architect | Soul Sisters | MonoGreen Devotion
Pauper: Blackened Eggs | Zombies | Domain Zoo | Sultai Teachings | Jund Gardens

izzetmage
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Post by izzetmage » 3 years ago

I saw a reddit post and built my list off it: So, for the uninitiated, there is actually a Doomsday-like combo in this deck. Before that though, the basic plan is to get to 4 mana, then cast Irencrag Feat + Goblin Charbelcher to win. There are no lands, so Belcher does damage equal to your library size. With a single ritual, this can happen on turn 3. I view it as an A+B combo, like Ad Nauseam or our boi on the banned list, so I have 4 copies of both, even though Irencrag Feat is clearly useless in multiples. Also notice both pieces are immune to Inquisition of Kozilek.

Without Feat, you can cast and activate Belcher (4+3 mana) over 2 turns. With a single ritual and untapped land drop on turn 3, Belcher lands T3 and activates T4. Or, you can ritual all the way up to 7 mana and do it in 1 turn. This is less common because the rituals only give a net +1 mana, unless it's a spliced Desperate Ritual, and Wild Cantor only lets you store 1 mana at a time (compared to my previous Belcher deck's Vessel of Volatility).

Now, the Doomsday combo. This deck's Doomsday equivalent is Recross the Paths. Get to 2G, then cast Recross the Paths, reveal your land-less library, and rearrange it this way: set aside one Turntimber, one Reforge the Soul, at least 2 SSGs or SSG+untapped land, any 2 rituals, Feat, Belcher, and any other card you think will help. Pact won't, because Feat restricts you to just the Belcher after it. Then put those on top of your library, making sure Turntimber is on top and Reforge is below it. Clash and probably win, returning Recross to hand and bottoming Turntimber. On your next turn, draw and miracle the Reforge, drawing into your rituals and Belcher, cast everything and win.

Remember that you need 2 mana the turn after you Recross to cast Reforge. If you only have 1 land, no Cantors in play and manage to generate 3 mana for Recross, you're not clear yet: you still need an extra SSG in hand to Reforge next turn. Given that you probably also used an SSG for Recross, and the Reforge pile needs 2 SSGs in it, that's all 4 SSGs right there. If, on the other hand, you have 3 or more lands, then you can cut rituals from the Reforge pile.

Instead of Feat in the pile, you can have two more Desperate Rituals instead, providing the same net +3, but over two cards instead of one. If you have 3 lands, this lets you put Pact in the Reforge pile for protection.

Pact and Reforge are at 2 to reduce the risk of getting shafted from drawing them naturally before Recrossing. Note that Reforge makes you discard, so you can't save those if you draw them naturally. For the same reason, don't use Chromatic Star while making mana for Reforge. If you only have 2 green lands then that can't be helped, but this just means you have to put one junk card below Reforge, above its pile, that will be discarded to it.

The 7 cards below Reforge can be further arranged in a way that maximizes your chances for recovery if Reforge is countered. While deciding on the Reforge pile, look at your hand and field and figure out what you're missing from either the Feat+Belcher combo or another Recross cast, and put that directly below Reforge. Since you almost always win the clash and need 2 lands to cast Reforge, the easiest option is to just put SSG right below Reforge, so if it's countered, next turn you'll draw SSG and can Recross again. However, if you're only 1 card away from Feat+Belcher, e.g. 3 lands and ritual+Belcher in hand, you can save a turn over Recross by putting the missing card (in this case Feat) below Reforge.

Alternatively, if you're only 1 card away from Feat+Belcher, you can put Turntimber on top, the missing card below that, then Reforge and the pile (so you go for Feat+Belcher first, then Reforge if that fails, instead of the other way around). If you have Manamorphoses in hand or Stars on the field, you can put that many other missing pieces below Turntimber.

Against slow decks with counterspells, if you aren't in danger of dying within 2 turns, you don't need to set up a Reforge pile that wins next turn. Reforge gives them a new 7 too, and if they have Force + blue card + another counterspell, they can beat your 1 Pact/Veil. Suppose it's a postboard game, you have 3 lands in play, and resolve Recross. If you set up the Reforge pile as SSG, rit, rit, Desp, Desp, Belcher, Pact, attempting to win next turn, you have 1 piece of protection for them to try to beat. If instead you go land, Veil, Pact, Pact, Feat, Belcher, Turntimber/Shatterskull (depending on whether you need R for Feat or G for Veil), you kill 1 turn later, but have 3 pieces of protection. (Once Feat resolves you can't Pact, but you just need to protect Veil. If they have Aether Gust and try to use it on Feat you can still Pact those.) This is made possible by waiting for your lands to untap after spending 2 of them on Reforge, allowing you to cut rits for protection.

If you're out of Reforges in your library but have 4 lands, you can stack Feat, Belcher, Feat, Belcher... repeatedly, attempting to combo off every other turn. This works against decks that have removal to stop a slow 2-turn Belch. Against decks with discard or counterspells, you can stack all your Belchers, then all your Bala Ged Recoveries. If you have fewer than 4 lands in hand and field combined, just stack as many as you need on top of the wincons.

The Chromatic Stars in the main are there for fixing Pyretic/Desperate Ritual mana for Recross usage. I like those better than Mishra's Bauble or Street Wraith because they actually do something while cantripping. DS uses those cards to feed Gurmag Angler or Death's Shadow. This deck has no such excuse, but instead has cards that generate RRR and another card that costs 2G. Postboard they come out and whichever 4 cards you need most against your opponent come in. Leyline for discard, Claim for Stony Silence, Veil for counterspells, Anger/Slash for creatures. Pacts come out instead if your opponent has no counterspells. The A+B combo angle is weak against decks with discard or counterspells, so 2 Feats can be cut in that case.

Mana wise, the on-color ETB untapped bolt lands are obviously at 4 each, then I have 8 more red sources and 4 green. These are mainly chosen by how much utility their nonland sides provide: Spikefield Hazard can ping a hatebear, Valakut Awakening lets you mulligan, Bala Ged Recovery gets back a combo piece. They could be Tangled Florahedrons instead if you think they'll help in hitting 7 mana for one-turn Belches, but the Recollect is probably better. Don't drop to 16 red/4 green thinking only 1 card uses green anyway and you should be fine with all your fixing, you need green sources postboard since you bring out Stars and bring in green spells.

This deck can win on turn 1 if you draw the Reforge pile as your opener. You can win turn 2 with a T1 Recross, but the hand is very specific: untapped land (/8), 2 SSGs (/4), ritual (/8), Cantor (/4), Recross (/4), any non-SSG wildcard OR another ritual+Star instead of Cantor+wildcard, and you mustn't draw SSG off it.

Recross is amazingly weak to Field of Ruin, since the (failed) search and subsequent shuffle (messing up library order) are forced, and the deck has 0 basics. Assassin's Trophy is optional, so choose not to search. If you have Manamorphose or Star with floating mana, you can save the top card at least.

Final tip is that you can use Irencrag Feat to cast Shatterskull Smashing for X=5, or for 1 more mana, basically kill 2 things. This answers Karn, the Great Creator. I wish there was something we could do with Turntimber Symbiosis, but there isn't.
Last edited by izzetmage 3 years ago, edited 11 times in total.

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Ulka
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Post by Ulka » 3 years ago

I love the idea of it being a turn 3 combo. This would make use as fast as Ad Nausum which is super cool. However I do think going all in on the combo does bring up some risks that are not ideal given that its kinda easy to stop our combo with with a Leyline of Sanctity or a well timed Force of Negation. I do think as we cant compete completely in speed with Burn and some of the aggro decks in the format, that the uniqueness of being able to go sideways will turn out to be an advantage in the long run for us. This means I do think I'm still sold on the Amulet Plan but I do really like the idea of messing with Recross the Paths piles to set up better in a similar vein to Doomsday. The other big thing that I haven't done yet is update the list with the new DF lands spoiled since the last update. So I will be doing that after this. But yea its exicting to see we can run this as a turn 3 kill deck.
Modern: Goryo's Gifts | Heartless Architect | Soul Sisters | MonoGreen Devotion
Pauper: Blackened Eggs | Zombies | Domain Zoo | Sultai Teachings | Jund Gardens

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Ulka
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Post by Ulka » 3 years ago

Okay some cards have been spoiled since my last update so its time to add them to the list:
Kazandu Mammoth - a Solid beater for backup but I'm not sure if it makes our list.
Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood - Oh boy Lands that come in Untapped. I like it!\
Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass - In the Words of Nigel Thornberry; "Smashing!" I love this and I think it will add to the deck some needed speed.

So that said lets take a Look at what they could replace:

Turntimber can easily replace the 4 forests in my list.
Shatterskull will replace Traverse


Further Adjustments need to be made as now we have a functional land base just on Double Faced land cards so Stomping Ground can leave along with the 3 Dismembers to make room for Recross the Paths.
To make room for more of the comb aspect Izzetmage was talking about I could easily move Chancellor of the Tangle out for 2 Reforge the Soul and 2 more Irencrag Feat.
Along with that I do want 4 Desperate Ritual so that will replace Goblin Engineer. I will be dropping 2 Tangled Florahedron // Tangled Vale for 2 Pyretic Ritual to help push out combo up.


That will leave us with a deck that looks like this:
Modern: Goryo's Gifts | Heartless Architect | Soul Sisters | MonoGreen Devotion
Pauper: Blackened Eggs | Zombies | Domain Zoo | Sultai Teachings | Jund Gardens

izzetmage
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Post by izzetmage » 3 years ago

Chancellor is no longer needed. The reason it was in old lists is that Belcher demands low land count, so they had to substitute lands with Chancellor + 1-mana land searchers. This was inefficient since Chancellor + searcher is equivalent to 1 land, but takes 2 cards, so you're basically starting lots of games on a mulligan. Now you can simply play lands in all but name. If you don't have any land searchers, you don't need any Chancellors.

Another tech card I decided to add is Dissenter's Deliverance. This deals with Sorcerous Spyglass (the Karn that grabbed it also needs to be dealt with, using Feat+Shatterskull Smashing) or Chalice of the Void on 4, and the opportunity cost is low since it cycles against other decks with no targets. Only 1 is needed, not 2 like other bullets, since if you happen to draw it before Reforge, you can blow up the offending artifact there and then.

izzetmage
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Post by izzetmage » 3 years ago

I've drafted a SB plan against the commonly-played decks in the format. In doing so I've had more thought over some of the maindeck and SB choices.

First is Star in the flex slots. I like having both Star and Cantor as fixers, cutting one or the other depending on the matchup. Cantor is better for speed since it can store 1 mana, acting as a ritual, while Star is better for stability since it cantrips.

Cantor is worse against Bolt since they can freely keep Bolts, interacting with your Cantor if you leave it exposed. Prowess in particular can Lava Dart your Cantor and still have a card to use later. If you play around this by never leaving it exposed, then it loses the mana storage functionality and between it and Star, the question is "do you want to pay 1 more mana to draw a card?". I'll go with "yes" on that, since postboard games are slower and you will have opportunities to spend that 1 extra mana. A related analogy is when people play Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt (in fact their card draw costs a total of 2 more mana). So board out your Cantors against Bolt, Star does the same thing anyway, but better.

Star is worse against Karn, the Great Creator. Karn decks tend to be those that you race, so cutting Star and keeping Cantor makes sense. TBH Karn is a very troublesome card since he himself shuts off Belcher, and he can grab an artifact like Sorcerous Spyglass which will also screw with you in some way. You can deal with him by stacking a Feat+Shatterskull pile (making sure X is high enough to kill him), then Reforge+the actual Belcher win+removal for the artifact below that.

Next are the creature removal slots. I had Flame Slash for Eidolon of Rhetoric and Shalai, Voice of Plenty, but after checking decklists, those cards aren't commonly played anymore, so I think it's safe to stick to Bolt for single target removal. They can be beaten without Flame Slash anyway: for Eidolon you can do a slow 2-turn Belch, while for Shalai, you Belch her first then your opponent next turn.

The second question when it comes to creature removal is how many sweepers and how many spot removals. I have 4 spots for both, and Prowess/Dredge/RG Midrange seem popular so I went with 3 Anger, 1 Bolt. Prowess relies on its creatures more than Burn, so Anger is more potent against it. You can ritual into Anger, so don't worry about it being too slow on the draw. Anger is also obviously great against Dredge since it exiles. Since they play fewer Bloodghasts nowadays, it's harder for them to play around it. Against RG Midrange it deals with their fastest clocks (Bonecrusher Giant and Seasoned Pyromancer), Collector Ouphe, possibly also nabbing a mana dork alongside them.

Against Humans there is some merit to splitting Anger with another sweeper like Sweltering Suns to dodge Meddling Mage, but that deck is less popular than Dredge, so I retained the preferable setup against the more common deck.

Lastly, for spot removal, there is the question of Bolt vs Abrade. Abrade kills the same creatures as Bolt, but gives you another card to SB in against artifact decks. The downside is that it costs more, so you may not be able to remove some of those stuff in time (1-drop attackers, mana dorks). Due to that factor I stuck with Bolt; if artifact decks become more popular, you can start with more Dissenter's Deliverance main (though the main roadblock coming from those decks tends to be Karn).

General SBing strategy:
Pact out vs decks without counterspells. It's important to keep it in for Aether Gust, since Gust bypasses Veil.
Deliverance out vs decks without no targets
Cantor out vs Bolt
Star out vs Karn TGC, in vs Blood Moon
If you have to choose, Cantor in vs faster decks, Star in vs slower decks
2 Feat out vs slower decks with lots of removal/counters
Leyline in vs discard
Veil in vs discard/counters
Remaining removal in vs whatever they hit
SPOILER
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Burn:
-2 Pact
-1 Deliverance
-4 Cantor
-1 Pyretic
+4 Leyline
+1 Bolt
+3 Claim
Claim is for Eidolon (hence the Pyretic cut), but if it doesn't show up you can use it on your Stars.

R/BR Prowess:
-2 Pact
-1 Deliverance
-4 Cantor
-1 Star
+4 Leyline
+3 Anger
+1 Bolt

UR Prowess:
-1 Deliverance
-4 Cantor
-2 Star
+3 Veil
+3 Anger
+1 Bolt

Jund:
-2 Pact
-2 Feat
-3 Cantor
+4 Leyline
+3 Veil

Eldrazi Tron:
-2 Pact
-3 Star
+4 Claim
+1 Veil
Veil is a bit better than Pact because it also answers Chalice, in addition to Warping Wail.

Grixis DS:
-2 Feat
-1 Deliverance
-4 Cantor
+4 Leyline
+3 Veil

Humans:
-2 Pact
-2 Star
+3 Anger
+1 Bolt
Cantor is better than Star since it isn't affected by Thalia or Ouphe.

RG Midrange:
-2 Pact
-1 Deliverance
-4 Cantor
+3 Claim
+3 Anger
+1 Bolt
Pillage will destroy your exposed Belchers (if it hasn't already destroyed your lands).

G Tron:
-2 Pact
-2 Star
+4 Claim

Bant/UW/Sultai:
-2 Feat
-1 Cantor
+3 Veil
Stony Silence is no longer common in their SBs.

Dredge:
-2 Pact
-1 Deliverance
+3 Anger

Company/Chord/Evo decks:
-2 Pact
-2 Star
+3 Anger
+1 Bolt

Ad Nauseam:
-1 Deliverance
-3 Star
+4 Claim
They can survive one Belch with Angel's Grace or Phyrexian Unlife. If they used Angel's Grace, you can deal the last point of damage with Spikefield Hazard once the turn passes.

Amulet:
-1 Pact
+1 Bolt

Storm:
-1 Deliverance
-2 Star
+3 Veil

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