[Deck] Pitch Blue / Narset Control

User avatar
Kalladdin
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by Kalladdin » 4 years ago

banner

Welcome to the Pitch Blue / Narset Combo Primer!
"Image"
A Brief History
Show
Hide
Ever since Narset, Parter of Veils was spoiled, people have been talking about her. Denying your opponents the ability to draw extra cards is already really good, but when you factor in her ability to make previously symmetrical drawing effects asymmetrical her power level sky-rockets. Combos have been talked about all over the internet, but so far the most complete deck list I have seen came from [REDACTED]
The Goal of the deck and how it plays:
Show
Hide
The deck is looking to abuse symmetrical card draw effects and the passive ability of Narset, Parter of Veils to break the symmetry of said effects in our favor. Cards like Day's Undoing become 1 sided 3 mana draw 7, while our opponent has to shuffle their hand into their library, which is obviously incredibly powerful.

Another powerful option for abusing Narset's draw only 1 clause is looting effects: activate Lore Broker during the opponent's turn during their upkeep, (i.e. before their draw step), both of you loot, and then when the opponent's draw step comes they don't get to draw because they already drew 1 during the loot. This means that we can lock our opponent out of ever drawing cards, and doing it during their upkeep means that they cannot cast the card at instant speed, (because the draw and discard effect from the loot happens at the same time they never have a chance to react to having a card in their hand). Geier Reach Sanitarium is an additional looting effect on a land, and mikokoro, center of the sea is a one sided howling mine.

We are only allowed to play 4 copies of Narset, Parter of Veils, fortunately, Notion Thief is a creature with a very similar effect that we can also abuse with our symmetrical draw/looting effects, I will go more into depth the difference between the two in the "Guide to Playing the Deck" section.

Aside from our symmetrical draw/looting effects to combo with Narset or Notion Thief, we are also playing a ton of interaction to both slow our opponent down till we get the combo online, and also to keep our combo pieces safe. These interaction cards are fairly interesting, however, because of all of the extra cards we have in hand from Day's Undoing we get to play cards like Disrupting Shoal because the card disadvantage of exiling cards from our hand isn't as big when you have 1 sided draw 7s etc.

Image
A Sample Decklist
Show
Hide
Narset Parter of Veils Combo Control/Pitch Blue
Approximate Total Cost:

Image
A general note on card selection
Show
Hide
The deck relies on having Disrupting Shoal to slow our opponent down and keep our combo pieces alive, so having a good spread of converted mana costs in our spells, especially in game 1, is very important. Because of this, it is worthwhile playing spells that may not be as good on their own vs another option in order to keep our cmc spread out enough. If we go up against something like Death's Shadow, we want to have Vapor Snags, Spell Snares and Spell Pierces to pitch in order to counter all of their 1 cmc stuff; even if it seems like there's better options to replace those cards; the cmc is also a key factor.
Combo Pieces
Show
Hide
Narset, Parter of Veils The core of the deck: she digs for extra cards and combos with our stuff by breaking the symmetry of "each player draws x cards" effects, also is just naturally good against some decks with lots of cantrips.

Notion Thief servers as backup copies of Narset, and can also beat in for 3 to close out the game. It doesn't draw us cards immediately like Narset does, but also breaks the symmetry even better with Day's Undoing, Lore Broker etc. by letting us draw the cards our opponent would have drawn! A few key differences between the two passive effects, however:
1) Notion Thief's ability stops every draw other than the opponent's normal draw during their draw step, this means that if you make the opponent loot on your turn, or draw on your turn, they don't draw any cards, whereas Narset, Parter of Veils sets a cap for 1 card each turn, so if you loot on your turn the opponent draws a card as normal.
2) In order to lock the opponent out of drawing cards with lore broker and Notion Thief's ability, you must activate the looting effect during their draw step, (i.e. right after they draw their draw step card) so they immediately loot, not drawing the card for the loot, and discarding the card they just drew, with you also drawing an extra card due to Notion Thief's ability. This has the drawback of the opponent being able to cast instants in response to the loot trigger, unlike Narset, Parter of Veils where you can make them loot during their upkeep, so they draw 1 and discard 1, and then they don't get the draw for the draw step, meaning if they had 0 cards in hand when you activated the looting ability there's no time for them to cast the card that they draw before they have to discard it, (obviously madness cards get around this).

Lore Broker our combo piece used with either Narset or Notion Thief to lock our opponent out of drawing cards, while also making them discard any cards they have in hand if we can activate more than one. While being vulnerable to almost every creature removal spell ever is an obvious downside, we have a lot of cards that can protect it, and it can also beat in for damage or block, keeping either us or Narset alive, so it's not too bad a trade off. It doesn't have a very large impact on the game unless a) our opponent is already very low/empty handed and b) we have a resolved Narset/Thief. Cards like Jace's Archivist, and Teferi's Puzzle Box are harder to get going but have a larger impact on the game, both before we are comboing and after.

Teferi's Puzzle Box Combos with both Narset and Thief to lock our opponent out of drawing cards. Teferi's Puzzle Box has a number of upsides and downsides when compared as a combo piece to Lore Broker. First and foremost, it's not blue :\. It is, however, a way to instantly get our opponent empty handed when combined with Narset/Thief, as opposed to Lore Broker where it only stops our opponents from drawing more cards, it doesn't deal with anything already in their hand. The Puzzle Box is also better at drawing you into your combo pieces, though it does it in a weird and random way that you have no control over, you do get to see a lot more cards with a resolved Puzzle Box than with a Broker. Not being a creature means that it can't chump block, but it also means that our opponent has to have artifact hate to remove it, meaning we have planeswalkers, creatures, lands, and artifacts as options for our combo pieces so it means our opponent has to have a larger variety of answers to stop us from locking them out.

Jace's Archivist A weird combination of Teferi's Puzzle Box, Day's Undoing and Lore Broker all on a 2/2 body. Like Broker, it dies to pretty much everything, (though 3 cmc means it doesn't get hit with non-revolted Fatal Push. The one mana activation usually doesn't matter much, and it has the ability to get your opponent locked out of having cards in their hand instantly with Thief/Narset, whereas Broker and Sanitarium both need a Day's to get the opponent empty handed. Archivist is also nice because it allows us to very quickly see a bunch of cards in our deck to find a Thief or Narset if we don't already have one. Also we can somewhat break they symmetry by dumping our hand via free pitch spells while our opponent is casting things at a slower rate. Note that unlike Day's and Puzzle Box, Archivist actually discards the card(s) to the graveyard, meaning it works better with flashback, (see: Echo of Eons).

Day's Undoing while it is very rarely a good idea to cast Day's Undoing in other decks, we love it! Not only are we able to break the symmetry of the card draw, making it so only we draw cards but our opponent still has to shuffle their hand and graveyard away already makes this amazing, we can abuse Day's Undoing even more by also playing "pitch blue" cards such asDisrupting Shoal that let us exile blue cards from our hand instead of paying their mana cost. Day's Undoing effectively gives us more ammo for our free interaction so we don't care that we may be spending 2-3 cards to do with one of our oppoenent's cards, (2-3-for-1-ing ourselves if you will). Also a combo piece working as incidental graveyard hate is more relevant now than ever, so that's nice. Also if mill ever becomes a viable deck (lol) it helps there too. Note: If you are planning on casting a Day's Undoing and you have Narset out you can tick down before you Days to try and find an answer to a resolved threat, but usually it's the right idea to save your Narset tick downs for the next turn.)

Geier Reach Sanitarium works in the same way as Lore Broker except that you have to pay for each activation. Being a land and not a spell also has some upsides and downsides. The upsides: it doesn't take up a slot in our nonland cards, it doesn't die to creature removal like Lore Broker and it doesn't require and mana to play it. The Downsides: it takes 2 mana to activate, and similar to how Storm Crow is the best card in magic because you can pitch it to Force of Will, Geier Reach Sanitarium is not a blue card and therefore cannot be pitched to any of our free spells, (or found with Narset's -2 for that matter), it also cannot block to save us/Narset from damage and cannot attack to close out the game. Also not tapping for blue mana or being a basic land, (more on that can be found in the "Wait a second, that's not a land" section of "Card Selection" down below) is a significant downside, so currently we're only running 1-2. That being said, the opportunity cost for playing those 1-2 copies is pretty low, and not many decks have the ability to play additional copies of their combo pieces in the land slot.

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea has all of the same downsides as Geier Reach Sanitarium, and also doesn't serve as a lock piece with Narset or Notion Thief. It does, however, serve as card advantage with both, where the looting effect of Geier Reach Sanitarium is only card advantage with [Notion Thief], (as far as drawing extra cards, obviously denying our opponent's draw each turn is still technically card advantage). It's possible that this should just be another Geier Reach Sanitarium, or some other land.
Fair Interaction
Show
Hide
(Fair interaction are cards that interact with our opponents that don't have alternate casting costs, meaning we have to use mana to cast them; spells with alternate casting costs will be referred to as "pitch spells".)

Spell Pierce Spell pierce is one of those cards that is amazing against some decks and completely dead against others. 1 mana to counter a noncreature spell is useful against a lot of decks in the early game, especially because they won't be expecting it game 1, however it does nothing against creature decks, very little against ramp decks and becomes fairly useless in the late game, though you can pitch it to any of our pitch spells at least. Stopping path and bolt to keep our combo pieces is relevant so some amount of them can be played in the 75.

Spell Snare Another narrow interaction card, it hits different things that spell pierce may not hit, again it's less dead in our deck than it would be in others because we can pitch it to our free spells at the very least. Still not an amazing answer as it is far from a "catch-all", but hopefully it'll do.

Vapor Snag Useful to help stall if your opponent is play creatures, though it is worse against things like Goblin Guide that have haste and can attack again next turn, instead of having to wait for summoning sickness to wear off, and even worse against Goblin Electromancer in storm if they can combo off while the vapor snag is on the stack; obviously it is better not to let creatures resolve but that's not usually possible to catch them all. This would be better if it was a more permanent answer like fatal push, but it is important that we have a high density of blue cards for our pitch spells to function, so we work with what we have.

Void Snare A potential replacement for Vapor Snag. The life loss from Snag is irrelevant, but losing instant speed is a big downside. The upside, however, is having maindeck answers for resolved non-creature permanents which our deck is pretty bad at dealing with. Staying in the 1 cmc slot is also important when looking for alternatives to Vapor Snag.

Flusterstorm The most "gotcha" counterspell of all of our conditional countermagic, sometimes Flusterstorm is a massive blowout for 1 mana, othertimes it is unbelievably dead in hand. Good versus storm and control decks etc, could be a sideboard card if your meta is heavy with those, though I wouldn't recommend putting it in the main no matter how funny it is when it works.

Remand Very good in some matchups, and at least OK in that it cantrips in others, Remand can slow our opponent down by a lot if utilized correctly. Also has a cool synergy where you can remand your own card in response to a counterspell targetting your card so that it remains in your hand and the counterspell fizzles. It can't do anything about resolved cards, however, which brings us to our next card:

Unsubstantiate Sometimes it's a worse Remand, but being able to hit resolved creatures is a big deal because the rest of the deck isn't great at dealing with those, especially in game one.

Commit / Memory A catch-all answer to resolved permanents, and has the bonus of also functioning as a Day's Undoing in a pinch, note: we can discard it to looting or to hand size in order to cast the Memory side if need be.

Vendilion Clique A win con, a chump blocker and a piece of interaction all in one, the only thing holding Vendilion Clique back is its 3 cmc mana cost and the fact that it's legendary, though that doesn't come up too often. It does combo nicely with Narset or Thief to function as a pure Thoughtseize so the opponent doesn't get to draw a card. Honestly it would be way better in this deck if it was a 1/3 to help block and stabilize against creature decks in the early game, but I guess trading with something isn't the worst thing in the world.

Tyrant's Scorn Our deck's version of Fatal Push. Though it costs one extra mana, we get to count it as a blue spell, (meaning it can be pitched), as well as a little bounce utility for things that Push would usually miss. Or sometimes bouncing creatures is more effective than actually killing them. cough bloodghast cough cough

Thing in the Ice ]A blocker to save both us and Narset some damage, TITI also functions as a board wipe and a win con! If put in the deck you probably want to run some amount of cheap cantrips, (swapping out some amount of our 1 mana interaction spells for Serum Visions/Opt usually does the trick). TITI is one of the best answers to fast creature decks in blue, fortunately there's not very many creatures with the horror type that are played in modern, so the bounce effect is almost always "bounce all other creatures", a big step up from other blue board wipe effects. Can also be comboed with Day's Undoing, if the Day's is the 4th instant/sorcery spell cast after playing TITI, the TITI bounce trigger will go on the stack before the Day's Undoing resolves. Meaning the creatures will get bounced and then suffled into the opponent's library as soon as the Day's resolves. Pretty nice trick that costs a lot less mana to do than trying to combo Day's Undoing with Engulf the Shore, Aetherize etc.

Dead of Winter ] Not a blue card, but it is one of the better wrath options available to us. Replacing our islands with Snow-Covered Island is easy, and we already play a good amount of basics to make the Borderposts work. It's a turn faster than both Engulf the Shore and Damnation, while also hitting the same amount of creatures as Engulf and being easier to cast than Damnation, (one black versus 2 black in the casting cost is a big deal for us, especially in the early game where we really need a board wipe to stabilize). Killing things is also, (usually) better than bouncing them to hand.
Pitch Spells AKA Unfair Interaction
Show
Hide
Disrupting Shoal Force of Will's lazy cousin: it requires a little more work to get it running, but it does the job usually. We have a good spread of cmc cards in the deck to utilize its effect, and we can even cast it for x=4, 7 or 10 if we have to, (Commit / Memory counts as a 10cmc card, and though Commandeer may feel like it has a cmc of 0 most of the time, it does technically cost 7. Also with the amount of card draw we have we can sometimes hard cast it for cheaper cards in the late game.
An in depth explanation on the intricacies of Disrupting Shoal
Show
Hide
  • Any cards with an X in their mana cost have X=0 when you exile them to Disrupting Shoal.
  • When paying the alternate cost for Disrupting Shoal, the value of X in its mana cost still changes, and therefore the total cmc of Disrupting Shoal changes accordingly. (Even when it's cast for 0 mana it still has a cmc of 2+X, which is relevant vs things like Eidolon of the Great Revel
  • Any cards with an X in their mana cost cast by an opponent have X= to whatever it was cast for when figuring out the spell's cmc.
Commandeer My personal favorite of our free pitch spells, it is extremely good at shutting down our opponent's gameplan out of nowhere, and sometimes just winning us the game on the spot, (no, actually that's my Karn Liberated), though it can also take less flashy things like Lightning Helix against Burn to gain life, function as a sort of counterspell etc. Not good against creature decks for obvious reasons, but there's extras in the sideboard for when they are particularly good. Also worth noting that Commandeer is less narrow than Disrupting Shoal, so even if you really want to take something for yourself, keep in mind that you may want to use your more narrow answers when they work and keep the catch-all ones for things that the more narrow cards can't hit.
An in depth explanation on the intricacies of Commandeer
Show
Hide
Commandeer is a bit of an interesting card with some complicated rules interactions, we'll start with the simple ones and work our way up.
  • Instants and sorceries go into their owner's, (the opponent's) graveyard when they resolve, unless a buyback or flashback cost ways payed, in which case the card goes into their owner's hand or exile respectively.
  • Any permanents that you Commandeer go into your opponent's graveyard/hand should they leave the battlefield: not your own.
  • You cannot change modes or pay additional costs of the spell you Commandeer, you can only change targets, (you also cannot pay any values for X in the spells mana cost; the X value remains the same as what the opponent originally cast it for.
  • You must chose a valid target as the spell resolves. Meaning if you Commandeer a Fatal Push and the only available creature is your Lore Broker you must end up targeting the Lore Broker. If the target that you select is illegal as the spell resolves then it has no effect as usual.
  • If the target spell has any copies you only gain control of the spell that you target, the other copies will be controlled by the opponent who cast the original spell. (Don't bank on taking a Grapeshot because you'll still take the damage from all of the copies)
  • Any instances of "you" in the spell now refer to you and not the opponent, (this can be important with things such as landfall effects, or the 2 damage from Thoughtseize etc. Any instances of "your opponents"/"each opponent" etc. now refer to your opponent and not you.
Snapback doesn't do anything to hexproof creatures and isn't great against hastey ones or ones with abilities that can be abused at instant speed like Baral, Chief of Compliance or evenGriselbrand, but at least it's a potentially free answer to most resolved creatures, which the deck can really struggle with. Also it can bounce your own creatures to save them from removal or even get another Thoughtseize effect out of Vendilion Clique.

Force of Negation "The madlads did it! They printed Force of Will in modern!" Well, not quite. Though new Force is incredibly powerful, it is more limited, (which is probably a good thing, I don't think a functional reprint of Force of Will would be good for the modern format). Another free counter spell is good for the deck, however it is far worse than Disrupting Shoal in practice: Shoal, (and commandeer to a lesser extent]] serves 2 key functions in our deck. Yes, it disrupts our opponents without us having to commit mana, but it also lets us tap out/low for our sorcery speed combo pieces while still holding up protection for them. Force of Negation does not do this. As it is only free if it is not our turn, so if the opponent has something like a Dreadbore, Force is effectively useless if the opponent casts Dreadbore right after Narset/Thief etc. resolves. Similarly, it doesn't help us resolve a Narset/Broker/Puzzle Box/Archivist/Day's in a counter war, because we have to cast those during our turn. We can flash in Thief and have Force be online for counterspells, but that's only one of our 6 combo pieces.
Wait a second, that's not a land!
Show
Hide
Mistvein Borderpost These may seem like a strange decision to play, but hear me out, they are actually way better than they seem. First and foremost, lands are normally colorless, so having something that functions as a land but can be exiled to our pitch spells is a big deal, especially with 3 being a decently relevant cmc, and a lot of our other 3 cmc cards are combo pieces that we may want to keep in hand. Also being able to find them with Narset, Parter of Veils is a pretty big deal; there's a lot of times when we would -2 and get nothing if we didn't play 4 of these. Also having some small amount of ramp and some color fixing is never a bad thing.
Image
Executing the Combo
Show
Hide
They key win condition of the deck is to lock the opponent out of ever drawing cards with a combination of Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief and a looting effect like Lore Broker by making the opponent draw a card and immediately discard it.
A few key differences between the two passive effects on Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief, however:
1) Notion Thief's ability stops every draw other than the opponent's normal draw during their draw step, this means that if you make the opponent loot on your turn, or draw on your turn, they don't draw any cards, whereas Narset, Parter of Veils sets a cap for 1 card each turn, so if you loot on your turn the opponent draws a card as normal.
2) In order to lock the opponent out of drawing cards with lore broker and Notion Thief's ability, you must activate the looting effect in response to them drawing a card on their draw step, so they immediately loot, not drawing the card for the loot, and discarding the card they just drew, with you also drawing an extra card due to Notion Thief's ability. This has the drawback of the opponent being able to cast instants in response to the loot trigger, unlike Narset, Parter of Veils where you can make them loot during their upkeep, so they draw 1 and discard 1, and then they don't get the draw for the draw step, meaning if they had 0 cards in hand when you activated the looting ability there's no time for them to cast the card that they draw before they have to discard it, (obviously madness cards get around this).
What about when you have both Thief and Narset on the board?
Show
Hide
It's an interesting interaction. The rules text for Narset, Parter of Veils from Gatherer states:
Replacement effects (such as that of Underrealm Lich or the first ability of Jace, Wielder of Mysteries) can't be used to replace draws that Narset disallows. However, if an opponent's first draw is replaced (by Underrealm Lich's ability, for example), that draw didn't happen and Narset won't stop the next draw (which may also be replaced by Underrealm Lich's ability).
This means that if you activate a looting ability during the opponent's upkeep, (meaning they haven't drawn a card yet this turn), Narset allows the draw to happen, and then Thief's ability cancels the draw and gives you a card. When the opponent's draw phase comes, Narset's ability doesn't prevent the draw, because the opponent hasn't actually drawn a card yet and Thief doesn't care about the draw step draw, so the opponent ends up getting that card.

If you activate the looting ability after the opponent has drawn their card in the draw step, Narset's ability kicks in and stops them from drawing another card, so they discard the one they just drew, (assuming 0 cards in hand at the begging of the turn), and because they never drew a card that wasn't the initial draw step one, Notion Thief's ability never triggers.

Let's say you cast a Day's Undoing with both out during your turn, and the opponent hasn't drawn any cards this turn. The first card the opponent attempts to draw is allowed by Narset, but then gets cancelled by Thief, so you get an extra. The 2nd card isn't canceled by Narset, because the opponent never drew the first card, so Thief kicks in, cancels that draw also, and then gives you another. This means that by the end of casting the Day's Undoing, your opponent will have 0 cards and you will have 14, (7 from your draws from Days, and 7 from the Thief's ability.) Also let it be noted: if something is preventing the opponent's draw in their draw step from happening, (ex. Colfenor's Plans) then each time they would go to draw a card Thief's ability would cancel it, so Narset never triggers, and you end up with the extra cards.

To recap: If you want to draw an extra card and you have both Notion Thief and Narset, Parter of Veils out, trigger the loot before the first draw of the turn; if you want to lock the opponent out of keeping cards in their hand activate the loot after the initial draw of the draw step.
Resolving and Protecting our Combo
Show
Hide
In order to get the combo online, you need to do 2 things: 1) resolve your pieces and protect them and 2) get your opponent empty handed.

Resolving the combo pieces and protecting them is actually easier in this deck than in other combo decks, because of all of our free interaction spells: we don't have to wait until we can hold up mana for interaction during/after casting our combo pieces if we have a Disrupting Shoal in hand to hopefully protect it until we can untap next turn. Because our draw spells like Day's Undoing become a lot worse if we don't have a combo piece out, it is very important to get either Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief on the board and keep it there as earlier as possible and as long as possible, (though obviously make sure it is safe to cast them; it sucks when you have a Remand in hand that could've countered that Ugin The Spirit Dragon but instead you tapped out hoping that Disrupting Shoal on 2 would be enough).

Getting our opponent empty handed can be done one of two ways: either they cast everything in their hand and you survive it and manage to stabilize despite this, or you cast Day's Undoing with Narset or Thief out to make them shuffle their hand away without drawing new cards, it is also possible to activate multiple looting effects, (Lore Broker etc.) during 1 turn to make the opponent start discarding extra cards.
Win Conditions
Show
Hide
Once the opponent is locked out of drawing cards we can close out the game by beating in with our utility creatures.
Image
The Good
Show
Hide
Anything that likes to cast a lot of noncreature spells is a pretty good matchup, especially decks that have a lot of card draw effects, like Control, or Storm simply because our combo pieces are already naturally good against them, and our free pitch spells let us interact with their combo in unexpected times. We also have a pretty good matchup vs things like the new Neoform decks or the Goryo's Vengeance decks that are looking to abuse the new London mulligan rule, again because our free pitch spells let us interact with them when they go for that early turn 1 or 2 kill, far earlier than most decks in the format, and also fairly consistently especially in games 2 & 3 when we can bring in additional Commandeers.
The Bad
Show
Hide
Decks like Burn, Elves and Humans are much harder to beat but not impossible; cheap and efficient creatures dodge a lot of interaction and Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial can make them even harder to interact with. Burn especially is also pretty good at killing our combo pieces, (if you can help it never tick down Narset, Parter of Veils because it puts her in bolt etc. range).
The Funky
Show
Hide
There are also some interesting matchups, where our deck functions really well vs part of their deck, but does very little vs other parts. Scapeshift/Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle/Primeval Titan decks. Scapeshift is pretty easily shut down with the likes of Commandeer, but Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle dodges all of our interaction, while Primeval Titan dodges some of it but not all. Dredge is another one of the matchups: our combo pieces are pretty sweet against their Faithless Lootings and Burning Inquirys, but their ability to dump creatures on the battlefield very quickly can lead to problems, and also sometimes our looting effects will just give them a discard outlet to discard whatever they wanted in their graveyard in the first place.
Image
Sideboarding and Alternate Card Choices
Show
Hide
General Sideboarding
Show
Hide

Creature/Aggro Sideboarding

Blast Zone, Snapback, Dead of Winter, Tyrant's Scorn, Damnation and Engulf the Shore are all in there to help with creature matchups. Blast zone should replace Mikokoro, Center of the Sea/Geier Reach Sanitarium to not mess up the land color/count ratios. Snapback, Tyrant's Scorn and Engulf the Shore are the best answers to creatures in mono blue for the deck. It is possible that swapping these out for a few Fatal Push and Dead of Winter/Damnation is correct, though this does hurt our pitch blue cards, but at least in those matchups you're probably wanting to sideboard out Commandeer anyways. The bounce effects are nice with our mass shuffle-hand combos, and are also better vs graveyard decks because the cards go back into hand and not directly into the graveyard to be reanimated again, (re-reanimated if you will). Note: Blast Zone can also be sided in in place of border posts against decks with a lot of artifact hate so that your mana base isn't as fragile, or in place of the border posts if you want to keep in the Sanitariums for combo redundancy.

Combo & Control Sideboarding

Spell Pierce, Force of Negation, Flusterstorm and Commandeer are mostly just to have extra answers for the noncreature deck matchups when we are wanting to sideboard out our creature hate cards, because these matchups are already fairly good it may be that the sideboard should be more oriented towards beating our bad matchups vs making our good matchups better, this is mainly a meta call.

Graveyard Sideboarding

Relic of Progenitus, and Ashiok, Dream Render nowadays every deck needs some sideboard graveyard hate it seems. Fortunately we already have some in the maindeck in Day's Undoing, but a little more never hurts, also Relic is considerably faster than Day's. Ashiok's "cannot search library' passive is also good against a lot of decks that do a lot of tutoring, like Scapeshift so it does double duty in helping against two different types of matchups. Other graveyard hate options include Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical extraction.
Alternate Card Choices
Show
Hide
Notion Thief an extra copy of our combo piece just in case the opponent keeps killing it, though we have, (in theory) so much relevant interaction maybe this should just be another hate card, or even be fit somewhere in the mainboard. It's also hard to decide when to stick this extra card in because it doesn't really help vs the decks that are better at dealing with our combo, whereas siding in things like Spell Pierce or Commandeer might seem like a better idea.

Chalice of the Void A lot of our 1 mana interaction spells aren't super important, so maybe Chalice could help slow our opponent down siding out some of our own 1 cmc cards, though not being blue is a big deal. Mostly it's just not really necessary so why play a "meh" non-blue card?

Surgical Extraction We already have a lot of free interaction, and relic is a better overall answer most likely. This could end up in the sideboard if the meta is incredibly graveyard-combo-centric, (though not being blue is a big annoying as always.)

Fatal Push A more permanent answer to resolved creatures that the deck struggles with, it doesn't help with bigger creatures and isn't blue, but maybe that's ok if it really helps our bad matchups that much. Being black and not blue gives me the big sad.

Damnation Same as Fatal Push but slower and hits multiple creatures at once and doesn't care about cmc. Not a blue card :(

Narset's Reversal A weird and even more narrow Remand, it's probably too weird to work, but it's flavorful and blue so maybe there is hope! Getting to stop your Day's Undoing from exiling is a cute, if somewhat unhelpful synergy.

Exhaustion Could help vs a lot of different decks, notably the creature matchup. We are already ok with cards that just delay the inevitable because once we get our combo online we should win fairly easily as long as the board is stabilized and we can cast a Day's Undoing. In some cases it's just a faster but overall worse Engulf the Shore, but in some cases also tapping lands/keeping the creatures tapped so they can't immediately tap again to activate abilities/attack, (looking at you Goblin Guide) is relevant. Definitely should be tested as an additional help card against aggro, though it cannot flatout replace the mass bounce "wrath" effect.

Gigadrowse Another mono blue control staple, it works very similarly to exhaustion, our deck is skimping on lands a little but also we have a lot of draw power and a little bit of ramp with the border posts so maybe these could work.

Augur of Bolas is a good early game blocker than digs to more interaction. Having 3 toughness vs the 1-2 of our other creatures is very relevant vs a lot of creature decks.

Spreading Seas having an answer to problematic lands somewhere in the 75 could be a good idea. Seas also cycles if it isn't useful, but can shutdown any of the lands we may run into, a least temporarily. Valakut is the most important example, as we have no other way to interact with it if it hits the battlefield.

Ghost QuarterSame as the above but in a land slot. We already have a little bit of room in the mana base that can be swapped around, maybe another viable option for land hate.

Dismember More noneblue creature soloutions. Kills different things than Fatal Push, and can cheat on the mana a little to cast it in a pinch. But it's not blue. Did I mention I don't like nonblue cards?

Unmoored Ego A blue spell that can help in a lot of matchups, most importantly giving us answers to lands like Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle without specifically having to play land hate. Very good against pretty much every combo deck, and can also be decent in the more fair matchups in dealing with problem cards, (for example taking out Spell Queller can be a big deal etc.)

Yahenni's Expertise Another option for mass creature hate. -3/-3 is enough to take care of a lot of creatures in the format, (notable exclusions include Death's Shadow, Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, [Primeval Titan] and Hollow One). Getting to potentially cast one of our combo pieces sounds sweet, but the BB mana cost can be hard to achieve with the current mana base.

Leyline of Sanctity A card that we cannot cast, (at least without major changes to the mana base) it becomes a little better with the London mulligan. Helps a ton vs Burn which is a pretty bad matchup. It's also good vs any deck running targeted discard which is somewhat annoying for our deck to play into.

Misthollow Griffin I'm going to be honest, I really want this one to work somehow. Combos exceptionally with our pitch spells, because we can exile it to one of them and then cast it as a good beater later in the game. 4 cmc is semi relevant too so that's nice, as is being resilient to Path to Exile or any other exile based removal. (During some of my test games with it I managed to pitch it to Commandeer to steal a Jace, the Mind Sculptor, then later cast it from exile. Then I Vapor Snagged it into my hand and exiled it again to counter a second Jace. It was pretty funny.) Note: in matchups with lots of removal you can combo Misthollow Griffin with Relic of Progenitus to keep getting back your Griffin. This is particularly relevant vs decks like Jund or even Death's Shadow that have a lot of ways to kill our stuff, and also a lot of creatures for the Griffin to block.
Changelog/Updates
Last edited by Kalladdin 4 years ago, edited 9 times in total.

Tags:

amiolas
Posts: 2
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by amiolas » 4 years ago

Good write up, thanks for posting this! I've built a similar version of Conley's list and have been testing it over the past weeks. Humans is definitely my worst matchup, haha.

I'm curious on your opinion on a few cards that I've been running or considering:
Dead of winter - From Modern Horizons it's actually been a pretty solid removal card for me, I replaced my basics with Snow lands and is generally a pretty strong wipe against a slew of creature decks, obviously it's problematic against meddling mage and the like but if I survive till turn 3 against humans it can generally be a strong wrath. Only downside obviously is it's not blue! I've currently got two main and two side in case I run into real heavy aggro.

Teferi's puzzle box - A side board card for sure, but being able to gurantee a lock without Lore Broker or mana investment ala Sanitarium, and get a new hand every turn, seems pretty strong. If you've got notion thief out, they'll still draw normally for their draw step and then shuffle away through the box, letting you draw 14 cards total, every turn. Seems like a pretty crazy way to put them on lockdown for the same notion thief mana.

Tyrant's scorn - I figured I'd throw in my two cents as I've tested it as 2 of in my deck. I'm honestly considering upping it to 4, as the removal is incredibly relevant early game, and the bounce even allows me to protect some of my combo pieces or to repeat effects, I've bounced my Vendillion Clique before to replay it or Notion thief during removal. It's been a pretty solid card for 2, only downside obviously it's not as free as snapback.

Echo of Eons - Also has been a interesting card to test, I've put it in as a 1 of in the main board; I never bother casting it for full cost, I usually discard it with lore broker, to set up for a day's undoing effect without my turn ending, can be pretty handy, and having a emergency extra draw outside of the 4 Day's has been pretty handy.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 4 years ago


Here's my take on it. I like this archetype and I think there's more here than most Blue mages have considered yet.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Kalladdin
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by Kalladdin » 4 years ago

amiolas wrote:
4 years ago
Good write up, thanks for posting this! I've built a similar version of Conley's list and have been testing it over the past weeks. Humans is definitely my worst matchup, haha.
Yeah Humans is definitely rough, Spirits can be very hard too, both play Cavern and Aethervial while also having interaction for our stuff and a fast clock.
amiolas wrote:
4 years ago
Dead of winter - From Modern Horizons it's actually been a pretty solid removal card for me, I replaced my basics with Snow lands and is generally a pretty strong wipe against a slew of creature decks, obviously it's problematic against meddling mage and the like but if I survive till turn 3 against humans it can generally be a strong wrath. Only downside obviously is it's not blue! I've currently got two main and two side in case I run into real heavy aggro.
Dead of Winter is probably our best wrath, because at least we can usually cast it. It's one of the new cards that I will be adding to the primer in the next few days, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Definitely a downside that it can't kill bigger stuff, but it's definitely better than nothing, and also more consistent than our other wrath options, Engulf the Shore and Damnation, both 4 cmc, Engulf is easier to cast but far less effective, Damnation is good against everything but dredge basically, but is way harder to cast needing double black, I think Dead of Winter is a good middle ground, still kills stuff, is a turn faster and can be cast off of 1 black source which is usually all that we have earlier in the game. Not being blue is a downside, but I think it's worthwhile as a 1/2-of in the main with a few more in the side just to have a chance against some of the more annoying creature decks. Also it works wonders against decks with lots of mana dorks so that's always helpful, plus it is funny against the new GW infect decks in that it dodges all of their protection spells, they usually loose their Giver of Runes and some Noble Hierarchs while also having to use some pump spells to save their infect creature.
amiolas wrote:
4 years ago
Teferi's puzzle box - A side board card for sure, but being able to gurantee a lock without Lore Broker or mana investment ala Sanitarium, and get a new hand every turn, seems pretty strong. If you've got notion thief out, they'll still draw normally for their draw step and then shuffle away through the box, letting you draw 14 cards total, every turn. Seems like a pretty crazy way to put them on lockdown for the same notion thief mana.
Puzzlebox is definitely a good card. I have been unimpressed with Lore Broker recently, it seems like it has almost no effect on the game before we have the combo set up, and then also isn't a very good lock unless the opponent is already low on cards or we combine it with a Day's Undoing. Lore Broker has also been dying to creature removal a lot, and I'm tempted to try playing a creatureless/creature-light build, (the only creature being Notion Thief) at least for the main board to see if we can get opponents to side out some removal, also splitting our combo pieces between planeswalker, artifact and creature means that opponents have to have a wider array of answers so there's something to be said there, even if the mana cost and non-blue aspects of the card make it a little awkward. I've also been messing around with Jace's Archivist in this slot. It still dies to creature removal, yes, but it has the upside of being a far better lock than Lore Broker when we have a Narset or Thief, while still allowing us to dig a little more for answers/combo pieces before we are set up.
amiolas wrote:
4 years ago
Tyrant's scorn - I figured I'd throw in my two cents as I've tested it as 2 of in my deck. I'm honestly considering upping it to 4, as the removal is incredibly relevant early game, and the bounce even allows me to protect some of my combo pieces or to repeat effects, I've bounced my Vendillion Clique before to replay it or Notion thief during removal. It's been a pretty solid card for 2, only downside obviously it's not as free as snapback.
Tyrant's Scorn has gotten considerably better since the Bridge ban, in that it will be able to actually destroy almost all of the commonly played threats in modern, (and destroying them will be a more permanent answer than with silly graveyard creatures that can just come back the next turn anyways). The 1 extra mana over Fatal Push is a fine price to pay for the card being blue, though some amount of pushes in the sideboard may be necessary if aggro creature decks prove to be too fast in the upcoming meta. Definitely an underrated card by Conley in my opinion. I think you can easily get away with 2 in the 75, and 4 is perfectly believable to shore up our worse matchups.
amiolas wrote:
4 years ago
Echo of Eons - Also has been a interesting card to test, I've put it in as a 1 of in the main board; I never bother casting it for full cost, I usually discard it with lore broker, to set up for a day's undoing effect without my turn ending, can be pretty handy, and having a emergency extra draw outside of the 4 Day's has been pretty handy.
This is a card that I actually haven't tested out at all, I just assumed it wasn't really playable to be honest. Then again I've been trimming down on Lore Brokers recently, so Echo of Eons definitely looks a lot better if you have the Brokers to help discard it. Not ending your turn when it resolves is pretty nice, and the 6 cmc for Disrupting Shoal is also cute. Just as a 1-of I could see it being fine to not be dead in hand as often, and Jace's Archivist can also serve as a discard outlet for it, even if Teferi's Puzzlbox does not.

I'd be interested to see the exact list that you've been running recently, (just to get an idea of what number of what spells you are playing as interaction etc.)

User avatar
Kalladdin
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by Kalladdin » 4 years ago

I also wanted to bounce an idea off of you all,

Disrupting Shoal has an interesting limitation on our deckbuilding: we need to have a good curve of converted mana costs among our spells to be able to pitch to Shoal. Though its not really a limitation for the 2cmc-4 cmc spells, as we wanted some amount of those for interaction/comboing anyways, the 1 cmc blue interaction spells are all a little lackluster. Void Snare, Vapor Snag, Spell Snare and Spell Pierce are great when they work but are extremely variable in performance. While I'm not saying we should cut these completely, we do have other options that I don't think many people have thought about so far. Blue x-spells can have a far better performance as the game goes on, (where Pierce and Snare are usually dead or far less effective after the first few turns). We have some good options here: Condescend and Repeal are probably the best, though there's some other options, Spell Burst, Gridlock, Selective Snare and Venarian Glimmer could also be (maybe?) playable depending on the list/meta. The x spells make hitting land drops more important, but I wanted to go up a few borderposts/lands anyways so that's not the end of the world.

Definitely something to think about, I will be testing out Condescend and Repeal as 1/2-ofs and seeing how that feels.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 4 years ago

Gonna be honest Condescend often replaces Mana Leak in unrelated lists, I see no reason why it can't be played here as the 1cc pitch slot.

+1 good call.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Kalladdin
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by Kalladdin » 4 years ago

This is the list I've been fooling around with on MTGO, so far I haven't really missed the Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, the Condescend and Repeal have felt great in that slot. Testing out one Echo of Eons to see if it's even worthwhile, so far I'm not too sure. Having the extra draw 7 is definitely nice though, really adds some consistency when trying to get the opponent empty handed. Jace's Archivist has been putting in work, similar to Echo, Archivist just gives the deck that little more draw power to up the consistency, plus Lore Broker doesn't really even compare in terms of comboing. Being able to make the opponent discard their whole hand as soon as you have the combo online is very powerful, really speeds up the inevitability of our combo.

I'm doing some experimenting with the sideboard, added in 4x TITI and a few opts to help in creature matchups, while not taking away slots from the combo/interaction in the mainboard. Not sure about it yet, but people certainly didn't seem to expect them g2. Nihil Spellbomb has also felt pretty good over Relic of Progenitus, similar costs but Spellbomb doesn't need the extra mana up to activate in a pinch.


amiolas
Posts: 2
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by amiolas » 4 years ago

Kalladdin wrote:
4 years ago
stuff

I'd be interested to see the exact list that you've been running recently, (just to get an idea of what number of what spells you are playing as interaction etc.)
Awesome, thanks for the reply! I've actually changed my deck list up a bit since I posted a-little bit ago; anyways, here's the decklist, and I'll explain my changes.
SPOILER
Show
Hide

So I've been piloting this deck against a fairly decent portion of the meta, namely humans, tron, a little bit of storm and affinity. Haven't fought any phoenix/hogaak decks, but I feel grave hate is going to give us our best chance against fighting them.

Commandeer: Yep, they're only in the sideboard. None mainboard. Is it a super good blow-out card game 1 against decks that cast big spells like scapeshift or through the breach, or ugin? Yes, no doubt! Is it completely dead against most aggro decks? Yes. After seeing the recent postings of the Metagame from the mythic championship, we're up against a lot of creatures. Comandeer just isn't going to cut stealing their bolt or assassin's trophy when most of their stuff goes into the grave.

I feel Commandeer is, (outside of the fringe interaction of pitching it to disrupting shoal to counter a 7 drop hogaak which is not impossible) a win more card. Most aggro decks this does nothing against, outside of stealing their sideboard hate (which is why I have it in the sideboard!). Now, it is good against combo, or tron decks that like to cast big-non-creatures.

Here's the thing: We eat combo decks for breakfast! We should (ideally) never lose to a spell combo deck! We have so many counterspell effects in the deck to stop their stuff, and that's not even counting how much day's undoing can mess up gifts/past in flames decks. Commandeer should be a last ditch effort, where those 2 other cards in our hand aren't doing anything. And realistically, if you play smart with your counters against a combo deck, you should never be put in that position.

Creeping Tar Pit: a 1 of land, gives us a un-blockable finisher that also taps for our colors. It does hurt my dead of winter a little bit, but generally dead of winter will still wipe most boards aside from giant threats. Biggest downside, it enters tapped, ugh.

Leyline Of The Void: I decided to put in 1. I'm a firm believer of running 1 of or 4 of leylines; And in this deck, the last thing you want to draw from a day's undoing is 2 leylines you wanted at the start of the game. 1 of does make it harder to draw at the start, but with the london mull that does make it a bit more forgiving for us. Ideally we don't want to be casting this on turn 4 and we can't pitch it to anything, which earns it a 1 of slot.

Damnation: Was originally engulf the shores b/c instant and pitchable, but man, I kept coming back to damnation. Engulf the shores is just a more expensive bouncy dead of winter, and sometimes, you just can't hit those big threats. We need some way to get rid of troublesome creatures, big or small, and this does it.

Surgical Extraction: This was originally 2 unmoored ego but I bumped up a damping sphere and put in 1 of these. Surgical is just...too good. We need fast gravehate against two of the most prominent deck types, izzet phoenix and hogaak.

Mistvein Borderpost Yep, it gone. Zip. Zilch. Cannot be found. Don't get me wrong. I like how the card interacts with our pitchable cards, force, shoal, comandeer, snapback, etc. What I DON'T like, is drawing 2-3 of them in my opening hand and having no lands to play, or being dead in my hand because I drew those and lands from a day's undoing! I took them out in place of more lands, and more flexibility in the main deck in the instants/creatures/sorceries department. Taking Comandeer out of main deck also upped how many cards generally stay in my deck since Comandeer takes out 2 per free casting.
I put all of that in spoiler since I got a bit wordy on talking about my additions. I am super curious about a few cards in your deck, namely: Condescend, Archmage's Charm, and Jace, the mind sculptor.

I always saw Archmage's charm as strong, but it always felt...slow in my hand? I can see it being good as a just hard-counterspell, but I just can't get over the 3 blue.

Condescend: This is the card I'm considering lowering my spell snares and 1 lorebroker (Lorebroker's will become jace's archivist, so 3 of them) to include in the deck; It seems like a pretty flexible counter, and at worst, U for Scry 2 in response to a spell, which is not the worst and could set up for some fun stuff. Only problem I see is with Notion Thief we are usually trying to cast him on opponent's end, which could make the X mana a bit...iffy.

Jace, the mind sculptor: I have really wanted to try him, brainstorm is so strong and the bounce effect is pretty good too, fateseal is neat but I hardly ever use it. How has he played? My worry is he's just too darn high cost at 4 mana.

I Was also curious on your 2 of Unsubstantiate. I used to run that, but snapback and tyrant's scorn generally deals with the bounce with their own upsides, and remand just seems to be better for countering because of the draw?

I'm super curious on your reasonings behind your choices too, I'd like to know!

BloodyRabbit
Posts: 143
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

IMHO the problem with this lists is... the list itself.

The deck should play a Blue Control game that enables blowout, not being a bad deck that sometimes do cool things.

Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:



This is what I call a 'Control shell'. Nassif played several times his mono blue version on his twitch channel (you find it also on YT) with great success. I'll suggest you guys to take a look at it,

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Developing”