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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Doing some evaluating on my own decklists brought me to realize both just how powerful a ten fetch base is, and how tightly we're squeezing our mana base to get the requisite effects we want in a given list. I came up with a synopsis last night that I liked, and I felt it merited some discussion with more than just some folks that end up in my decklist threads, since good mana seems to be a hot issue. Now, my list ofc is Mardu, but the discussion here can be extrapolated to any other combination I'm sure.
3drinks wrote:I'm evaluating the need for such a dearth of nonbasic fixing in the wake of a ten-fetch base. A higher basic count may enable stronger utilization of Skred, and other snow effects, while also becoming more resistant to non-basic hosery - a goal which any 3c deck could benefit greatly from. Ideally, the only colourless lands necessary should be Ancient Tomb, Strip Mine, & Wasteland.


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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

For organisational purposes, it'd probably be easier to lump 'em up into cycles for a quick overview. That said, I remember you did something similar on MTGS not too long ago, back then you were advocating filters, which have now vanished. Obsoleted by the canopies? Also, is Cavern of Souls an auto shoe-in regardless of deck on account of the uncounterability of the commander? Also also, I seem to remember a spirited debate about Reflecting Pool :P
 
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Just for convenience's sake I tend to run slightly fewer than the max # of fetches, closer to 5-ish in 2-color decks and 6 in 3. But this is definitely the right way to go from a technical perspective.

In 2-color decks you're required to play more of the crappy 2-color lands because you can run fewer fetches and especially in enemy color decks there are fewer fetchable duals.

I don't know that you need to run wasteland *and* strip mine. I'd probably rather have a homeward path or high market or something most of the time. In 75% metas theft effects tend to be pretty common.



All that said though I don't find myself willing to start with a 'skeleton' from a manabase perspective for a variety of reasons. For me the mana needs of every deck are different, and I usually build the manabase last other than having a pile of utility lands I want to play.

I recently build a Tymna and SIlas affinity deck and its manabase ended up unlike anything I have ever built -- playing all the creature lands to help enable Tymna, having a higher quotient of utility lands by virtue of being almost mono-brown. The manabase focused on basically hitting one of each color by turn 5 or so and then relying on mana dorks/rocks and drawing cards off Tymna to fix it further for higher pip density cards.

in Gitrog, I am running a ton of utility lands that make good packages with Realms, lots of sac effects to enable Gitrog, and tons of colorless lands the place of spells.

In Ephara I probably run closest to the prototypical, but I play both on-color filter lands to help make sure I always have UW turn 3 (and enough plains to support Emeria, and enough colorless lands to support Eldrazi Displacer--which is a powerhouse). I also run the Temple to help smooth out early draws.

In Maelstrom Wanderer I run a ton of on color tricks like Oboro, Dryad Arbor, Tranquil Thicket, Raging Ravine, and I want stuff like Petrified Field to help make sure I get a Cradle in an intuition package if I need to (e.g. cradle/excavator/field).

Bottom line I just do not think that you should mentally hem yourself in by having a manabase framework. Have a bunch of ideas for sure, but try not to lock yourself in.

edit: Also, it's a lot harder to cheap up a manabase in retrospect imho, than to construct a slightly cheaper manabase to fit a deck as you're building it. At least, that's how it has been for me :)

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
For organisational purposes, it'd probably be easier to lump 'em up into cycles for a quick overview. That said, I remember you did something similar on MTGS not too long ago, back then you were advocating filters, which have now vanished. Obsoleted by the canopies? Also, is Cavern of Souls an auto shoe-in regardless of deck on account of the uncounterability of the commander? Also also, I seem to remember a spirited debate about Reflecting Pool :P
Yes, actually I've found myself more or less enjoying the canopies over filters. (Prismatic vista also helps edge these non-fetchable lands out).This is because with the full suite of fetches, my crucible is pulling more weight, and to further maximize that, I prefer sac lands to ensure i always have gas for crucible.

I still am quite the fan of R-Pool, it's in this example, getting bumped by Heliod's Hall. I'm still not for sure if I want that, and Pool has always been super reliable - moreso in such a controlled mana set as this.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Just to be clear - when you say "I'm evaluating the need for such a dearth of nonbasic fixing in the wake of a ten-fetch base.", I read that as "the need for such a lack of nonbasic fixing"...which doesn't totally make sense to me, especially in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Do you mean dearth? From the context it seems like you think you're running TOO MUCH nonbasic fixing lands, and would like to trim it down, so I'm assuming you mean the opposite of dearth (let's go with plethora?)

Assuming an ideal fetch/dual starting place, I think how much additional fixing you want depends a lot on what you want to do with the deck. Having 9 essentially rainbow lands (10 with command tower, 11 with vista) is usually a solid starting place, but if you want to be able to cast multiple CCC spells on-curve then more fixing is obviously going to be better, or if you just really want to have the right mana at the right time. 11 lands out of 30-something is obviously quite a few, but it's not so many that you're anywhere near guaranteed to draw one.

Personally, I tend to like to run quite a few utility lands (not like, a crazy number, but usually ~5 depending on the deck), so having some extra fixing to cover for the usually colorless slots is usually valuable to me. I rarely have any snow-synergy in 3-color decks (as in, never) so that's not an issue, nor is any monocolor basic synergy like gauntlets or whatever. So the only REAL downside to having all nonbasics is usually:

1-can't use basic-only ramp

2-worried about nonbasic hate

the first one is usually easily ameliorated by running a couple, if you want to run some ramp spells.

The second one depends on a lot of factors. Blood moon, for example, isn't THAT hard to play around with fetches, because as long as you already have decent fixing in-hand, you can crack for basics to protect yourself against it, and a lot of decks only need 1-2 mana of each color to work, which could easily come from mana rocks even if you don't have basics. There are some hate cards, though, most notably ruination that...well, really, if that resolves in the mid/late game for a lot of 3-color decks, you're probably just wrecked. I don't think it's all that reasonable to run a bunch of basics and give yourself worse fixing for every single game just in case someone plays ruination. If that's common in your meta, then maybe it is, but it hasn't been true in any of mine. More commonly, I'll look around before the match starts and decide if I think it's likely that someone would be playing that sort of thing (revising that opinion as people play lands, of course). And if they are, I'll try to hold up a counterspell or something. My phelddagrif deck, for example - sure, ruination wrecks it hard, but so does armageddon. I've already got to play as though armageddon could come down, so I may as well play as though ruination could too. I've got removal answers for blood moon or B2B if those come down, but ruination is just going to be a bastard and it is what it is. Penalty of playing 3-color.

I don't think it's reasonable for most 3-color decks to run 10+ basics purely as a precaution against nonbasic hate, unless that's a major part of their meta. At a certain point, you've gotta just say "yep, if someone is running a specific hate card and it resolves, then I'm screwed, and that's just the way it is." If it's turn 12 and it's the difference between getting 9/10 lands destroyed versus 7/10 lands destroyed...who cares, you're screwed either way.
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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

The mana base in the OP is pretty legit to me. There are some slight changes I would make, but overall I think its a pretty good starting point for most 3 color decks.

Normally people have too many utility lands in 2 color and mono color decks and not 3 color.

Honestly, I think an example of a good 2 color mana base would be more helpful to most people.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
Normally people have too many utility lands in 2 color and mono color decks
I think that's kind of a hard discussion to have, because it depends so much on the deck. For a deck that plays a fast, aggressive gameplan and makes use of all of its mana every turn pretty consistently, then utility lands are going to be largely wasted (basically all cEDH decks fit into this category). For a slow control deck, though, having good utility lands can make a big difference. They're hard to interact with, and can provide a lot of value for very little investment. So you can't really generalize about how many you should be running in a given color combination - combo teferi is going to look very different than, say, control Atemsis.

I think a lot of cEDH or cEDH-adjacent players tell people to avoid utility lands because they don't typically play well in that context, when they may play perfectly well in the users context.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by JqlGirl » 4 years ago

Are all 10 fetches really needed? After a certain point, it seems just excessive. Like, I can understand the argument that playing off-color fetches in 2 and 3 color decks is necessary to some degree to optimize a mana base, but I don't see what 10 does other than provide a bunch of painful or useless draws late game. The deck thinning provided by fetches is minimally relevant, so what's the benefit of running two fetches over, say, City of Brass/Mana Confluence in a three color mana base? Those lands give me whatever color I need whereas a fetch might not if I've already fetched out my fetchable duals of that color pair (or basics in the case of Vista).

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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

@DrikGently I don't think there is any context where sacrificing mana consistency is worth it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying no one should run utility lands or ETB tapped lands. But I do think people can go overboard on it and they tend to do that in 1 and 2 color decks.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

JqlGirl wrote:
4 years ago
Are all 10 fetches really needed? After a certain point, it seems just excessive. Like, I can understand the argument that playing off-color fetches in 2 and 3 color decks is necessary to some degree to optimize a mana base, but I don't see what 10 does other than provide a bunch of painful or useless draws late game. The deck thinning provided by fetches is minimally relevant, so what's the benefit of running two fetches over, say, City of Brass/Mana Confluence in a three color mana base? Those lands give me whatever color I need whereas a fetch might not if I've already fetched out my fetchable duals of that color pair (or basics in the case of Vista).
They build threshold, can fetch either a dual or a basic as needed, fix whatever colours I need and can (largely) get around most nonbasic hate (Moon being the exception should it come down first). You can also crucifetch to ensure you never ever miss a land drop again, as well as do cool things like crack fetch < in response Tithe, or Boom your fetch < in response crack fetch. There's also rings of brighthearth synergy. You just can't get this level of play out of a City of Brass.

Once you've played with the power of a fetch-dual manabase, you find it's nigh impossible to go back. They are THE premiere mana fixing to any deck.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
The mana base in the OP is pretty legit to me. There are some slight changes I would make, but overall I think its a pretty good starting point for most 3 color decks.

Normally people have too many utility lands in 2 color and mono color decks and not 3 color.

Honestly, I think an example of a good 2 color mana base would be more helpful to most people.
Out of the context of that mana base' specific needs, two of those lands would be mouth of ronom (colourless for colourless) and smoldering marsh (which is fine with the increased basic count) or tresserhorn sinks (but I put more emphasis on snow matters).
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

JqlGirl wrote:
4 years ago
Are all 10 fetches really needed? After a certain point, it seems just excessive. Like, I can understand the argument that playing off-color fetches in 2 and 3 color decks is necessary to some degree to optimize a mana base, but I don't see what 10 does other than provide a bunch of painful or useless draws late game. The deck thinning provided by fetches is minimally relevant, so what's the benefit of running two fetches over, say, City of Brass/Mana Confluence in a three color mana base? Those lands give me whatever color I need whereas a fetch might not if I've already fetched out my fetchable duals of that color pair (or basics in the case of Vista).
why is a fetch a worse top deck than a CoB? Your fixing late-game is probably fine. So unless you have no targets left it's basically just as good and only costs 1 life instead of constant life.

Also: they shuffle your deck, they can be recurred, fuel delve, and get basics to fight non basic hate if necessary.

They are the best lands for fixing, period. There's a reason legacy/modern mana looks the way it does.
xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
@DrikGently I don't think there is any context where sacrificing mana consistency is worth it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying no one should run utility lands or ETB tapped lands. But I do think people can go overboard on it and they tend to do that in 1 and 2 color decks.
Every utility land (except okina and co I guess) sacrifices consistency. Even if you have 39 islands, including one etbt land sacrifices some minor consistency. For that matter, running fewer lands sacrifices mana consistency. But you aren't going to run a 90 land deck to avoid sacrificing mana consistency. You can't have perfect mana consistency and also have a functioning deck. It's always a matter of balance.

Does running, say, kor haven color screw me occasionally? Yes, rarely. But it also is often a major factor in my victories. So, it's worth the trade off.

Another thing to ponder: if I was planning to run 35 lands, but instead run 40 lands of which 5 are utility lands, have I "sacrificed consistency "?
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Just for convenience's sake I tend to run slightly fewer than the max # of fetches, closer to 5-ish in 2-color decks and 6 in 3. But this is definitely the right way to go from a technical perspective.

In 2-color decks you're required to play more of the crappy 2-color lands because you can run fewer fetches and especially in enemy color decks there are fewer fetchable duals.

I don't know that you need to run wasteland *and* strip mine. I'd probably rather have a homeward path or high market or something most of the time. In 75% metas theft effects tend to be pretty common.
I don't know that you're "required" to run more crappy 2c lands, in all honesty. You still get fetch x8, ABU x2, Shock x2, Tango, Bicycle, 4-6 basic, strip mine, wasteland, ancient tomb, cavern, tower and then in 2c R-Pool becomes an even easier include. This is 24-26 right now and there's still room for thawing glaciers shenanigans, checkland, pain, filter and, pending colour combination, a "canopy" land. Or even just an even higher basic count (something to always keep in mind with cards like settle the wreckage and wave of vitriol in the format because you do not want to be caught unable to make advantage out of that card).
Last edited by 3drinks 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Another thing to ponder: if I was planning to run 35 lands, but instead run 40 lands of which 5 are utility lands, have I "sacrificed consistency "?
I typically count those lands as spell slots (maze of ith being a common example, but also tabernacle since they don't fix my mana without Urborg). In the example above, there's actually 37 lands but one of them is ash barrens because i'm an astral slide deck. I don't plan to play ash barrens ever unless i'm that hard up...and i shouldn't be, because I can ship it.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Just for convenience's sake I tend to run slightly fewer than the max # of fetches, closer to 5-ish in 2-color decks and 6 in 3. But this is definitely the right way to go from a technical perspective.

In 2-color decks you're required to play more of the crappy 2-color lands because you can run fewer fetches and especially in enemy color decks there are fewer fetchable duals.

I don't know that you need to run wasteland *and* strip mine. I'd probably rather have a homeward path or high market or something most of the time. In 75% metas theft effects tend to be pretty common.
I don't know that you're "required" to run more crappy 2c lands, in all honesty. You still get fetch x8, ABU x2, Shock x2, Tango, Bicycle, 4-6 basic, strip mine, wasteland, ancient tomb, cavern, tower and then in 2c R-Pool becomes an even easier include. This is 24-26 right now and there's still room for thawing glaciers shenanigans, checkland, pain, filter and, pending colour combination, a "canopy" land. Or even just an even higher basic count (something to always keep in mind with cards like settle the wreckage in the format because you do not want to be caught unable to make advantage out of that card).
in a 2 color deck you don't get 2 abus or 2 shocks, you get one of each and one tango maybe (if you are ally color).

In an enemy color deck you're looking at :
8 fetch, 1 shock, 1 dual, and that's it for fetchables. If you're not running say, tainted wood and isolated chapel you're not going to be making your colors consistently if your deck demands say, GB and GG and BB on turn 3.

Usually you want to run like - filter + checkland + a rainbow land or something like that in enemy color pairs.

Edit: if you need a point of comparison, something like:
8 fetch 1 dual 1 shock 1 command tower + 10 of each basic is 31 lands and provides ~21 sources of each color. Unfortunately it also has a very high rate of only having one dual land, which means not casting stuff like Necropotence.

To start hitting 3 pips on time you need to be playing dorks, color producing rocks. *usually* in a 2 color enemy pair manabase you'll be much better off cutting to 8 of each basic and adding:
1 filter, 1 check, 1 pain land, 1 fast land

Which will get you closer to virtual 25 of each source, which makes your likelihood of hitting triple color in a reasonable time frame quite a bit higher (63% vs. 49% with some very basic math not accounting for anything else by turn 5).
Last edited by pokken 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Another thing to ponder: if I was planning to run 35 lands, but instead run 40 lands of which 5 are utility lands, have I "sacrificed consistency "?
I typically count those lands as spell slots (maze of ith being a common example, but also tabernacle since they don't fix my mana without Urborg). In the example above, there's actually 37 lands but one of them is ash barrens because i'm an astral slide deck. I don't plan to play ash barrens ever unless i'm that hard up...and i shouldn't be, because I can ship it.
Sure, I think it goes without saying that non-mana-producing lands don't count when figuring out mana balance. I meant colourless/etbt lands like arch of orazca and memorial to genius.
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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
@DrikGently I don't think there is any context where sacrificing mana consistency is worth it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying no one should run utility lands or ETB tapped lands. But I do think people can go overboard on it and they tend to do that in 1 and 2 color decks.
Every utility land (except okina and co I guess) sacrifices consistency. Even if you have 39 islands, including one etbt land sacrifices some minor consistency. For that matter, running fewer lands sacrifices mana consistency. But you aren't going to run a 90 land deck to avoid sacrificing mana consistency. You can't have perfect mana consistency and also have a functioning deck. It's always a matter of balance.

Does running, say, kor haven color screw me occasionally? Yes, rarely. But it also is often a major factor in my victories. So, it's worth the trade off.

Another thing to ponder: if I was planning to run 35 lands, but instead run 40 lands of which 5 are utility lands, have I "sacrificed consistency "?
Yeah balance is what I'm talking about. I've seen decks where over half the mana base is either an ETB tapped land, colorless, or only produces colored mana under circumstances.

If you have a deck with 40 lands and 5 are utility lands some sacrifice is made, a fairly low percent. This doesn't matter if your early spells dont have many colored mana requirements. It might come up one day, but your example doesn't sound like someone who went overboard on utility lands.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

The faster you want your mana fixed the better you want your landbase. I have an Edgar Markov list for instance that is very fast and it almost can't allow any utility lands given the demand for colored mana and fixing extremely early. On the other hand if you are playing a responsive control deck with a mid costed or expensive commander its far less important to hit optimal mana immediately. The speed of the deck and how proactive it is trying to hit things matters a lot. My edgar list is a three colored deck but it also wants to potentially be able to curve Necropotence on turns 3-5 if possible.

The faster you are trying to do really color intensive things the better you want that landbase to be.
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