Mono-Black Woes, or what do I do with Yawgmoth?
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- Vessiliana
- Posts: 76
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- Location: Tokyo
Black is my favorite color in Magic, and I generally have at least one mono-black deck built at any given time. But I cannot seem to find the mono-black general of my dreams. I've built (and disassembled...) things from Liliana, Heretical Healer to Chainer, Dementia Master to Ghoulcaller Gisa to Gonti, Lord of Luxury and back again. They all worked to some degree. They were varying levels of interesting. But I never found the one I loved. I think that I finally found it with Yawgmoth, as in, I love the card, love the looks, love the abilities, and I wanted to try something different from my usual reanimator/zombie/nonsense. (I've got Meren and Olivia doing reanimator, and Gisa and Geralf doing zombies.) I just recently cut one of my 5-color Superfriends decks down to Bant, so I thought I'd try that.
But I've just been looking at it too long. I've got mono-black deckbuilder's paralysis. There is, I think, too much "reanimation" focus leftover from when this deck was Chainer.
Here is the decklist as it stands, in case that is helpful.
What are some good guidelines for mono-black Superfriends? What is the "must-have" 'walker? What is the appropriate 'walker density? Is it worthwhile to run Koskun Falls, even if it doesn't protect my 'walkers? I'm just ... stuck.
But I've just been looking at it too long. I've got mono-black deckbuilder's paralysis. There is, I think, too much "reanimation" focus leftover from when this deck was Chainer.
Here is the decklist as it stands, in case that is helpful.
What are some good guidelines for mono-black Superfriends? What is the "must-have" 'walker? What is the appropriate 'walker density? Is it worthwhile to run Koskun Falls, even if it doesn't protect my 'walkers? I'm just ... stuck.
- toctheyounger
- Posts: 3986
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- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Looks pretty awesome to me. I know darrenhabib has been running a very similar list, and I've built something comparable (albeit more budget) myself. I'm doing a pseudo-walker/big mana build, but we're running very similar things in a lot of places. That being said, my build's curve is likely a bit lower than yours as a lot of my stuff is weenie reanimation for value a la Reassembling Skeleton, Gravecrawler, Bloodsoaked Champion.
Your list could definitely use an Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder for sac fodder. I can only imagine that being insane with enough critters coming into play.
Personally I was looking for alternate ways to win in addition to walkers. Exsanguinate, Torment of Hailfire obviously work well there. I'm currently racking my brains for reasonable black mana sinks other than these two, purely because my walker suite is going to be sparse and leaning into mana doublers seems fun. I came up with Dark Depths, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Pestilence and Death Cloud. It's a pretty short list.
To my mind for walkers, Dreadhorde and Dark Realms Lili are both crucial, and flip Lili's emblem would pretty much give you a combo loop with Yawgmoth, as well as being great with Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos. If you really want a full walker suite, you could add Karn, the Great Creator and Ugin, the Ineffable. Karn I haven't playtested, but Ugin has played great for me wherever I've put him; the first ability gives you a body to kill, for a card in hand and then Yawgmoth draw if you kill it that way, and the second ability is strong removal. Not to mention the static ability is a great boon for your rocks, too. In addition I'm also running Liliana, Death's Majesty and Liliana Vess, both of which are fine, but probably not as game-winning as Dreadhorde and Realms.
edit - In terms of protection for your walkers, it seems like the sort of place where you don't play them before you can ultimate them. Like, make sure you can proliferate the crap out of them, hit an ultimate for value, then maybe the walker dies. There's only so much you can do to wall them up, and mono black doesn't seem to be a fantastic place for that. There's Vampire Nighthawk style rattlesnakes, but if you don't have any other reason to run them it's probably a bad choice.
Your list could definitely use an Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder for sac fodder. I can only imagine that being insane with enough critters coming into play.
Personally I was looking for alternate ways to win in addition to walkers. Exsanguinate, Torment of Hailfire obviously work well there. I'm currently racking my brains for reasonable black mana sinks other than these two, purely because my walker suite is going to be sparse and leaning into mana doublers seems fun. I came up with Dark Depths, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Pestilence and Death Cloud. It's a pretty short list.
To my mind for walkers, Dreadhorde and Dark Realms Lili are both crucial, and flip Lili's emblem would pretty much give you a combo loop with Yawgmoth, as well as being great with Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos. If you really want a full walker suite, you could add Karn, the Great Creator and Ugin, the Ineffable. Karn I haven't playtested, but Ugin has played great for me wherever I've put him; the first ability gives you a body to kill, for a card in hand and then Yawgmoth draw if you kill it that way, and the second ability is strong removal. Not to mention the static ability is a great boon for your rocks, too. In addition I'm also running Liliana, Death's Majesty and Liliana Vess, both of which are fine, but probably not as game-winning as Dreadhorde and Realms.
edit - In terms of protection for your walkers, it seems like the sort of place where you don't play them before you can ultimate them. Like, make sure you can proliferate the crap out of them, hit an ultimate for value, then maybe the walker dies. There's only so much you can do to wall them up, and mono black doesn't seem to be a fantastic place for that. There's Vampire Nighthawk style rattlesnakes, but if you don't have any other reason to run them it's probably a bad choice.
- Vessiliana
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: she / her
- Location: Tokyo
Well, I've got the following in my list:
What about Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath? Or the new Obbie?
And I probably should cut down my curve a bit. As I mentioned, it was Chainer most recently, and I rarely paid full price for the fatties.
Only nine 'walkers so far. I was wondering if that was enough. I've got Ugin, the Ineffable and Karn, the Great Creator lying around. I just wasn't sure they'd be good. But now that you point it out, Ugin is going to be great for card advantage. In he goes!
What about Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath? Or the new Obbie?
And I probably should cut down my curve a bit. As I mentioned, it was Chainer most recently, and I rarely paid full price for the fatties.
I'm in the same boat (with black being my favourite colour).Vessiliana wrote: ↑4 years agoBlack is my favorite color in Magic, and I generally have at least one mono-black deck built at any given time.
I've played Iname, Death Aspect, Anowon, the Ruin Sage, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Endrek Sahr, Mater Breeder, Horobi, Deaths' Wail, Seizan, Perverter of Truth, Kuon, Ogre Ascendant, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Toshiro Umezawa, and (currently) Erebos, God of the Dead.
I have been interested (also) in running a Yawgmoth walker deck. From the planeswalker side of things, the only things I've thought of that are not in your list is Settle the Score and The Elderspell. I would also be tempted to play Karn's Bastion and Sword of Truth and Justice. Edit to add: Oath of Liliana is a totally acceptable card for a deck with walkers in it.
In terms of spending mana, I usually resort to life/mana-for-cards abilities: Greed, or if your environment is powerful, Necropotence. I've also won more than a few games with Pestilence Demon.
Last edited by Sinis 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
- toctheyounger
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Black Oath seems like a weakened version of Yawgmoth himself, so I'd pass personally. The new one....I kinda think sucks, tbh. Outside of a Nekusar, the Mindrazer build anyway.Vessiliana wrote: ↑4 years agoWell, I've got the following in my list:Only nine 'walkers so far. I was wondering if that was enough. I've got Ugin, the Ineffable and Karn, the Great Creator lying around. I just wasn't sure they'd be good. But now that you point it out, Ugin is going to be great for card advantage. In he goes!
What about Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath? Or the new Obbie?
And I probably should cut down my curve a bit. As I mentioned, it was Chainer most recently, and I rarely paid full price for the fatties.
FWIW, my superfriends/legendary grixis build only has 15-16 walkers at present. Again, part of this is being limited by budget, but they're kind of a value toolbox anyway. Here, I think the idea is to drop em, discard to proliferate until you have an ultimate, pop it for value, who cares what happens next - maybe reanimate them with Command the Dreadhorde or Yawgmoth's Vile Offering or just outright win. So like, I wouldn't think you'd need EVERY possible walker, just the great ones. And you have those.
Makes sense, Chainer loves his fatties. I think there's a few things that could or should stay. Vilis, Broker of Blood you'd be CRAZY to remove. The guy is bonkers here. Likewise Abhorrent Overlord. Otherwise, the prevalent idea is that the more fodder you can sac to the Father of Machines the better, so recurrable Bloodghast style things, the aforementioned Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Ophiomancer and such will be good value. I'm running Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar to funnel them into Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire if needed, too. Or just to land a big spell ahead of curve. That being said, my deck is very new, I haven't tested much at all, so I don't know if that will go down perfectly.
Oh, Grim Haruspex and Harvester of Souls seem cool here too.
- Vessiliana
- Posts: 76
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- Location: Tokyo
Oddly, I ended up pulling both altars from my build when I found them to just sit there most of the time. Endrek is languishing in my binder, so he's an easy add. Is Nether Traitor good enough do you think?
- toctheyounger
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Yeah I'd think Nether Traitor would do good work. Most of those variants would be decent I would think.Bloodsoaked Champion, Reassembling Skeleton, Gravecrawler, Tenacious Dead. I'd imagine Bloodghastwould need fetches and such to see any real value though.
- Vessiliana
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: she / her
- Location: Tokyo
Well, I've got a Reassembling Skeleton lying around. I don't remember if I have a spare Gravecrawler. Gisa and Geralf like it too much to give up otherwise.
Well, I have some tweaking to do! Thank you for the suggestions!
Well, I have some tweaking to do! Thank you for the suggestions!
- BaronCappuccino
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Black's biggest problem, I think, is that it almost never has a turn one play, and doesn't reliably have something to do till turn 3. Nobody beats black for powerful 3-5 drops, but it seems like that's when black just gets started. Even black's ramp is midgame and makes huge endgames if you get there, being all doublers. Finding a way to mitigate starting your match when your opponents are well into theirs is always a challenge.
- xeroxedfool
- Posts: 124
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I love Yawgmoth and I think he is the most powerful (legal) mono black commander printed. I got my inspiration from the aforementioned deck by darrenhabib, which has a nice primer. Here is the thread.
My deck is almost exactly the same. I'm running a few different cards than him and I will post the ones I remember:
Grave Titan
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Bolas's Citadel
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
Mind Stone
Cards I'm not running:
Karn, the Great Creator
Geralf's Messenger
Toxic Deluge
Contamination
Mox Amber
Mirage Mirror
There is something else I added but I can't remember it at this time. I really like the deck and recommend playing it if you can.
My deck is almost exactly the same. I'm running a few different cards than him and I will post the ones I remember:
Grave Titan
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Bolas's Citadel
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
Mind Stone
Cards I'm not running:
Karn, the Great Creator
Geralf's Messenger
Toxic Deluge
Contamination
Mox Amber
Mirage Mirror
There is something else I added but I can't remember it at this time. I really like the deck and recommend playing it if you can.
They're both Griffith, get it?
- toctheyounger
- Posts: 3986
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- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
I definitely think Gary deserves a spot. A way to mitigate life loss seems worth running, especially if you can recur it - it might be worth looking at Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat for similar reasons. I think I have Dawn of the Dead in the list for that reanimation. It's a little janky, but there's enough sacrifice in the deck to mitigate the exile clause. I really need to post a list, if for nothing else to get a good idea of where to take it.
- benjameenbear
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I'll chime in and offer up my own Yawgmoth Primer as an example of how I would build Yawgmoth. Link is in my signature.
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