Rule Change Ideas - SCG article

[pokken]

As I said hybrid and phyrexian mana are distinct entities under the existing rules. There is no conflict there at all.

[Vessiliana]

is that an acceptable trade-off to having the ability to play cards more liberally?

I actually like the deck-building restrictions of hybrid mana as they stand. I don't want to be throwing those cards into either deck just because I can. I think that the restrictions breed creativity. (Hardly an original thought, but still a valid one.)

[MRHblue]

I am not saying the rules would be elegant, I am not saying it even needs to be done... but I think it is an interesting discussion point and for any kind of rules change you have to weigh the pros and cons. If by some chance Metamorph would need to be banned (which I sincerely doubt), then is that an acceptable trade-off to having the ability to play cards more liberally?

Not at all. The creative restrictions make decks less homogenized and flavorful. Visual elegance is awesome. With all the cards that exist, we don't need more liberty. If this is done, we may as well just get rid of Color Identity.

[pokken]

Meh, azorius thopter foundry and mono blur godhead of awes aren't going to do anything except add a few interesting options for a small subset of mono and dual color decks. Most of the hybrid multi color cards are rather niche.

[Yatsufusa]

My stance on Hybrid basically boils down to "Until you can Doom Blade/Ultimate Price a Divinity of Pride cast by a mono-W deck, I stand by the current status quo". As far as I mechanically see it, Hybrids are basically still multicolored cards, just with more flexible casting costs and functionally as colored cards they're affected by everything in-game that affects their colors as though as they are multicolored, regardless of how they were cast.

I also see that Color Identity also follows that game-rule as a baseline and can only add colors, but will not remove them, because doing so fundamentally goes against the game rules itself, which identifies the Hybrid card as multicolored gameplay-wise. If the game rules (which impacts a myriad of functions in-game, such as removal) recognizes the card as a color or more, so should Color Identity.

The closest compromise I think could only be applied to cards with Hybrid Costs not in their casting costs (because that determines base colors) like Soulfire Grand Master, because that now falls within the full jurisdiction of Color Identity, which determines how many color identities are added due to wording and/or mana symbols.

Of course, if ever the day WotC actually "fixes" Hybrids (to be "True Hybrids" instead of "Gold Hybrids") comes, I would immediately switch sides, although it is very unlikely it would happen due to memory issues.

[umtiger]

Meh, azorius thopter foundry and mono blur godhead of awes aren't going to do anything except add a few interesting options for a small subset of mono and dual color decks. Most of the hybrid multi color cards are rather niche.

I'm sure being able to play with Judge's Familiar in Edric is good.
I'm sure having to play against Judge's Familiar in Edric is bad.

Let's keep the status quo on hybrid mana. Why any change if the change only adds a few interesting options?

If it's small enough and interesting enough, I'm sure a playgroup would house-rule/deem it okay.

[pokken]

Meh, azorius thopter foundry and mono blur godhead of awes aren't going to do anything except add a few interesting options for a small subset of mono and dual color decks. Most of the hybrid multi color cards are rather niche.

I'm sure being able to play with Judge's Familiar in Edric is good.
I'm sure having to play against Judge's Familiar in Edric is bad.

Let's keep the status quo on hybrid mana. Why any change if the change only adds a few interesting options?

If it's small enough and interesting enough, I'm sure a playgroup would house-rule/deem it okay.

Because the guys who invented hybrid mana think it should be that way and the impact is low.

I don't pretend that is some unassailable logic. But it's why I'd be on board.

Literally anything buffing 1-2c decks and adding to their flexibility that doesn't completely gut color identity is fine with me.

[MRHblue]

Because the guys who invented hybrid mana think it should be that way

Sure but he does not like or get Color Identity. He thinks the cards should not be multicolored on the stack, but the rules can't support that either,

and the impact is low.

Here we would strongly disagree, especially on cards with colorless hybrids. And making the rule exclude them undercuts the positions you have made.

Literally anything buffing 1-2c decks and adding to their flexibility that doesn't completely gut color identity is fine with me.

It's not limited to those, and just makes goodstuff decks better. Miss me with that homogenization.

[cryogen]

In case you didn't see it, Toby Elliot had this to say over on the official forums yesterday:

Mark's completely wrong, and I've had extensive emails with him about this explaining the reasons why it's the way it is. He just doesn't like it. He also fails to see it for what it really is - a deckbuilding restriction that has roots in aesthetics designed to make people be more creative.

Inertia has nothing to do with it. We've spent a whole lot of time discussing it and believe that the rule we have is the correct one.

[Maluko]

In case you didn't see it, Toby Elliot had this to say over on the official forums yesterday:

Mark's completely wrong, and I've had extensive emails with him about this explaining the reasons why it's the way it is. He just doesn't like it. He also fails to see it for what it really is - a deckbuilding restriction that has roots in aesthetics designed to make people be more creative.

Inertia has nothing to do with it. We've spent a whole lot of time discussing it and believe that the rule we have is the correct one.

I don't often agree with the Rules' Committee, but in this particular case, they have my full support.

[TheTuna]

I normally agree with what Maro says, but I think he's way off base on hybrid mana in Commander. A card like Divinity of Pride is very clearly both a white and a black card based off the literal color of the cardboard itself, so why should I be able to play it in my mono-White deck that's not allowed to use black cards? I don't see them as fundamentally any different from a gold creature. Toby Elliot's video on this subject during the Command Zone's 2019 Commander Summit addressed this question perfectly. In this instance, it seems like Maro's dislike for Commander as a player is probably hindering his ability to fully appreciate how deckbuilding restrictions help the format. Not saying that he's biased against it as a designer, of course, as it's clear that he's 100% behind designing more cards for Commander even if he doesn't enjoy it as a player.

If commander damage were to unify, it should absolutely stay at 21. Unified damage at 30 would make voltron decks that much worse, since there's usually only one of them at most in a game anyways. Sure, this would be a massive buff for voltron and combat strats in general, but combat is disadvantaged enough in EDH already that I don't see the harm in giving it a massive shot in the arm.

[pokken]

I normally agree with what Maro says, but I think he's way off base on hybrid mana in Commander. A card like Divinity of Pride is very clearly both a white and a black card based off the literal color of the cardboard itself, so why should I be able to play it in my mono-White deck that's not allowed to use black cards? I don't see them as fundamentally any different from a gold creature. Toby Elliot's video on this subject during the Command Zone's 2019 Commander Summit addressed this question perfectly. In this instance, it seems like Maro's dislike for Commander as a player is probably hindering his ability to fully appreciate how deckbuilding restrictions help the format. Not saying that he's biased against it as a designer, of course, as it's clear that he's 100% behind designing more cards for Commander even if he doesn't enjoy it as a player.

If Divinity of Pride or Thopter Foundry cost 2WWW or WU respectively no one would bat an eye.

Same with most hybrid cards. Probably the weirdest one is Overbeing of Myth but if that were a green card I think it'd be fine.

[Sharpened]

I think the thing with Maro and hybrid cards is not so much about deckbuilding restrictions. He clearly gets and likes the idea of restrictions breeding creativity.

It all stems from the way he sees hybrid cards philosophically. The thing is, while that philosophical distinction matters in design, the game mechanically does not make that distinction. As [mention]MRHblue[/mention] pointed out, the game mechanically does not treat hybrid cards the way Maro seems to think they would work under ideal circumstances.

I'm glad that he designs them based on that philosophy. And I like that it bothers him when there are hybrid cards that, based on that philosophy, should not be hybrid - Augury Adept being one example he has mentioned. But since the mechanics of the game cannot function to treat hybrid cards as OR instead of AND, then the commander deckbuilding restrictions should not either.

[Random Scrub]

But since the mechanics of the game cannot function to treat hybrid cards as OR instead of AND, then the commander deck building restrictions should not either.

I agree. I also don't like the possible confusion stemming from things like telling players their mono-white deck can include Augury Adept even though it's blue, but can't include Resplendent Griffin because it's blue.