The Mono White Compendium

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Toshi
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Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
I would really enjoy to see more dedicated sac focused commanders for mono white.
You are certainly right on that one!

has:
Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants
Bishop of Rebirth
Custodi Soulcaller
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Karmic Guide
Order of Whiteclay
Proclamation of Rebirth
Return to the Ranks
Reveillark
Sun Titan
Vesperlark
... and so many others, yet no less restrictive than Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle commander option for classic mono white weenies!

Sure, God-Eternal Oketra, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Thalia, Heretic Cathar would work. But only because one wants to make them work instead of pairing them naturally.

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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

Not to hate on mono white, but I feel like Bant, Selesnya, and Azorius decks can get Emeria, the Sky Ruin online with:


Especially since green has ways of getting lands into play.
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 4 years ago

NZB2323 wrote:
4 years ago
Not to hate on mono white, but I feel like Bant, Selesnya, and Azorius decks can get Emeria, the Sky Ruin online with:


Especially since green has ways of getting lands into play.
My experience with it is that 2C lists actually have the toughest time with it. There's fewer duals with basic typing available and you have more incentive to run heavier basics of both colors, because you're less likely to run into color troubles. That leads to more draws where you end up with more basic forests/islands/whatever.

Once you're into 3+ colors, it depends on what your manabase looks like. If you're in green and or running fetch heavy, It's not too tough as long as you consciously decide to go plains heavy and you have access to basic typed duals (easiest with ABUR duals, but doable in shard colors with the ones printed in the last few years). Otherwise, you're likely to be running more duals without basic types, like painlands, and you're going to have to go heavily white to enable it. At that point, it's probably not worth the deckbuilding constraints unless your theme already supported it.

Mono-W still has the easiest time turning it on and benefits the most from it, because you have fewer alternatives to generate card advantage.
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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

Monetary cost is also a consideration: in order to make a two or three color Emeria strategy work, you're going to want a lot of fetches. Ideally a full single-fetchable set, though even splitting the difference and focusing on dual-fetchable fetches still puts a considerable cost tax to getting Emeria online.

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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
Monetary cost is also a consideration: in order to make a two or three color Emeria strategy work, you're going to want a lot of fetches. Ideally a full single-fetchable set, though even splitting the difference and focusing on dual-fetchable fetches still puts a considerable cost tax to getting Emeria online.
My Trostani deck only runs on-color fetches - That is, only Windswept Heath, grasslands, Krosan Verge, Terramorphic Expanse, and Evolving Wilds.

Being a two color deck (and with green, obviously), I can safely say that I never have an issue getting Emeria online. Even my 3 color decks that run Emeria don't typically have issues. Perhaps when I play emeria, I only have 5 or 6 of the 7 needed plains, but it's usually trivial to get the remaining two, often times having the means in hand or even in play.

---

Emeria is a hugely powerful effect, which practically demands an answer - such that if I am running white, I often find myself putting it to the side to see if it makes sense in the deck.

I even once ran it in a 5c list, though I had a considerable number of duals available to turn it on. I also typically run heavy ramp, and tend to include Crucible of Worlds and Rings of Brighthearth in many lists.

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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

Hey ISB - any plans to update with the legendaries from the last two sets? I imagine keeping up with this would take considerable work, especially since they're actively increasing the legendary count in sets, and that some legendaries are... less than ideal...
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Linden, the Steadfast Queen
While gaining life is generally considered weak, white has certain triggers to capitalize off it, such as Dawn of Hope, or Well of Lost Dreams for card draw, and cards like Archangel of Thune for pure damage/buffs. Linden's ability encourages going wide with the army to get maximum benefit, but the limit to white-only creatures means that some go-wide token making abilities from artifacts will generate less value. However, those cards may still be good includes, since you'll be running other cards that take advantage of going wide anyways, so some anti-synergy may be acceptable if the means are overall efficient. Triple white cost can be tricky if running too many utility lands, but it means that she can also add a bit to devotion-based strategies.

Syr Alin, the Lion's Claw
I don't know... Pauper maybe? There are generally better anthem commanders, but maybe if you want a super casual mono-W Knight tribal deck?

(?) Kenrith, the Returned King
Technically a 5c Commander, due to his abilities, so I don't know if you want to list him - however - he only requires white to play, and limiting the included colors can make for an easier mana base, while still being able to use his abilities with City of Brass type of effects. It might be kinda cool to have a 'mono-white' aggro deck that happens to have access to on-demand haste and trample, with card draw in the Command zone.
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Daxos, Blessed by the sun
Life gain synergy, much like Linden, though with less devotion synergy. (Pretty much Linden, but better).

Heliod, Sun-crowned
Someone linked a reddit discussion/deck recently where a mono-w CEDH Heliod top-4'd an event. The pilot's reasoning was that mono-W hatebears is well suited to hate on hulk-flash decks and labman/oracle decks, as they lack interaction and removal to handle it. Heliod now gives a decent pump/wincon for that style of deck in the CZ.
From a regular EDH perspective, he encourages some soul sister/lifegain shenanigans, so many synergies that Linden has, he can use. He puts a reliable pump outlet in the CZ, and the lifelink granting is a nice bonus. Probably a solid all around Commander as well, and his ability can make use of persist cards well.

Taranika, Akroan Veteran
Pseudo Vigilance/Untapping can make decent use of creatures with tap effects. I often like to pair that with Vigilance granting to get double value. If you give creatures vigilance, perhaps with old Heliod, you could attack with something that has a tap ability, use it, untap it with Taranika, and then use it again. Perhaps even then use Reconnaissance and do it yet again.

Don't know if you have a 'fun interactions' section, or place to put them, but I was recently mulling over Realm-cloaked Giant and trying to figure out why you'd ever run it over something like Phyrexian Rebirth as both are wraths that leave a body available after - but you actually need to cast the giant... Then I ran into Mirror Entity and was rather amused. By using the mirror entity's ability, your creatures gain all types, which makes Realm-cloaked Giant a one-sided board wipe. Fairly amusing.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

bobthefunny wrote: Hey ISB - any plans to update with the legendaries from the last two sets? I imagine keeping up with this would take considerable work, especially since they're actively increasing the legendary count in sets, and that some legendaries are... less than ideal...
Eldraine
Show
Hide
Linden, the Steadfast Queen
While gaining life is generally considered weak, white has certain triggers to capitalize off it, such as Dawn of Hope, or Well of Lost Dreams for card draw, and cards like Archangel of Thune for pure damage/buffs. Linden's ability encourages going wide with the army to get maximum benefit, but the limit to white-only creatures means that some go-wide token making abilities from artifacts will generate less value. However, those cards may still be good includes, since you'll be running other cards that take advantage of going wide anyways, so some anti-synergy may be acceptable if the means are overall efficient. Triple white cost can be tricky if running too many utility lands, but it means that she can also add a bit to devotion-based strategies.

Syr Alin, the Lion's Claw
I don't know... Pauper maybe? There are generally better anthem commanders, but maybe if you want a super casual mono-W Knight tribal deck?

(?) Kenrith, the Returned King
Technically a 5c Commander, due to his abilities, so I don't know if you want to list him - however - he only requires white to play, and limiting the included colors can make for an easier mana base, while still being able to use his abilities with City of Brass type of effects. It might be kinda cool to have a 'mono-white' aggro deck that happens to have access to on-demand haste and trample, with card draw in the Command zone.
Theros Beyond Death
Show
Hide
Daxos, Blessed by the sun
Life gain synergy, much like Linden, though with less devotion synergy. (Pretty much Linden, but better).

Heliod, Sun-crowned
Someone linked a reddit discussion/deck recently where a mono-w CEDH Heliod top-4'd an event. The pilot's reasoning was that mono-W hatebears is well suited to hate on hulk-flash decks and labman/oracle decks, as they lack interaction and removal to handle it. Heliod now gives a decent pump/wincon for that style of deck in the CZ.
From a regular EDH perspective, he encourages some soul sister/lifegain shenanigans, so many synergies that Linden has, he can use. He puts a reliable pump outlet in the CZ, and the lifelink granting is a nice bonus. Probably a solid all around Commander as well, and his ability can make use of persist cards well.

Taranika, Akroan Veteran
Pseudo Vigilance/Untapping can make decent use of creatures with tap effects. I often like to pair that with Vigilance granting to get double value. If you give creatures vigilance, perhaps with old Heliod, you could attack with something that has a tap ability, use it, untap it with Taranika, and then use it again. Perhaps even then use Reconnaissance and do it yet again.

Don't know if you have a 'fun interactions' section, or place to put them, but I was recently mulling over Realm-cloaked Giant and trying to figure out why you'd ever run it over something like Phyrexian Rebirth as both are wraths that leave a body available after - but you actually need to cast the giant... Then I ran into Mirror Entity and was rather amused. By using the mirror entity's ability, your creatures gain all types, which makes Realm-cloaked Giant a one-sided board wipe. Fairly amusing.
I do definitely need to make some updates and keep adding to this. I think adding the 5c / playable mono white commanders in here too. I actually did a bit of thought process of a mono W Golos deck as well. I will try to add to this project and keep it going. It still has a lot of ways to go but its very rewarding to get things done for it.
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

'Technically' reaper king would fit that then, though I'm kind of iffy on him. I don't know where I'd draw the line though.

Mono-White Kenrith has me kind of excited though. That whole thing of "Aw man... if only my team had Haste... Oh WAIT!... They DO."

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I have absolutely loved all three of my mono colored Golos decks so far. The flexibility of getting to play a few hybrid cards and then having that easy card advantage+ramp in the command zone is really something.

I have mono blue/brown, white, and black so far, and I think the white one is my favorite --
https://deckbox.org/sets/2423059

It plays like a Heliod deck kinda except it has Sanctum or Nykthos easily available and has to find Heliod :P skybind is absolutely devastating with Golos. Annnd it can find high market for Rector super easily without having to commit hard to sac outlets.

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Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

I didnt see mentioned, but isn't scroll rack+land tax something worth bringing up as a very good card draw engine? I think every mono white deck ive ever played had it in it (both in EDH and legacy).

Anyways, i've not had problems winning with mono white. The only reason why i dont have the deck anymore was that i needed the pieces for my legacy decks! It was kinda fun winning with mono white, but somehow, when i started to win a lot more consistently, it just didn't feel as fun anymore.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Well, I managed to add another 8 commanders to the list getting through Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant. I want to keep working on this when I get a chance its just a matter of getting some time to work on things. I need to update and add the mono white legends added in the last year so in advance they still aren't in the list for the most part (I cant recall if I added a few or not).

It ended up taking me something like 2-3 hours to cover eight more inclusions and two of those eight were close to non playable vanilla creatures. I will try to get more time in this more frequently than I have in the past. I would say that on average every commander gets something close to half an hour plus of my time to cover and discuss.
schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
I didnt see mentioned, but isn't scroll rack+land tax something worth bringing up as a very good card draw engine? I think every mono white deck ive ever played had it in it (both in EDH and legacy).

Anyways, i've not had problems winning with mono white. The only reason why i dont have the deck anymore was that i needed the pieces for my legacy decks! It was kinda fun winning with mono white, but somehow, when i started to win a lot more consistently, it just didn't feel as fun anymore.
I didn't include it in the discussion of pros and cons of mono white in part because its something that doesn't really care if you are in mono white or not. I tried to stay away from talkking about things that white in general can do and while Land Tax gets stronger in mono white due to an increase in basic count I felt that it was something that could just as easily be run in two color white decks.

I made an exception to mention Weathered Wayfarer because being mono white likely means that you can run an increased utility land count which makes him stronger in mono white in a lot of cases than in two or three colored white decks.
bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
'Technically' reaper king would fit that then, though I'm kind of iffy on him. I don't know where I'd draw the line though.

Mono-White Kenrith has me kind of excited though. That whole thing of "Aw man... if only my team had Haste... Oh WAIT!... They DO."
I will try to circle back to the multicolored legends that can be run mono white later. I think mono white Golas is a real thing beyond just meming people but I will try to circle back to those later.
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Post by Cyberium » 3 years ago

Off-topic: I can see why you want to bring this thread up after seeing that new mythic.

On-topic: With new cards like Keeper of the Accord, Archon of Emeria, and Verge Rangers, is mono-white doing better, or still the same because other colors are also getting more advantage?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
3 years ago
Off-topic: I can see why you want to bring this thread up after seeing that new mythic.

On-topic: With new cards like Keeper of the Accord, Archon of Emeria, and Verge Rangers, is mono-white doing better, or still the same because other colors are also getting more advantage?
I actually worked on updating this before I saw the new mythic. I saw the new mythic something like 6-8 hours after having worked on this thread. I was working on this thread for 3+ hours before I posted yesterday and I didn't see the new spoils until several hours after.

I think that new cards helps mono color decks more than multicolored decks. The reason for me saying that is that in a lot of cases multicolored decks have to cut better cards to include the new cards in their deck. Mono white for example has gotten a lot better card draw in recent years from mechanics like Endless Atlas and Monarch. A three color deck for example might add Generous Gift to its deck but having had access to Beast Within, Chaos Warp, Cyclonic Rift, and or Anguished Unmaking already its probably going to matter a lot less and require it to cut better cards to make that inclusion. Card pool expansion is significantly on the side of mono color deck's advantage because in general the advantage that the multicolored deck had is being diminished by card pool depth expanding for the mono color deck.



  • Landbase Cost - Mono white isn't an easy task by any means. There are some really sweet cards and synergies that you get to use but that isn't to say you can't run Emeria, the Sky Ruin in GW and have access to four fetchable duals and green's land ramp / nonbasic land search effects. Running an optimized fetchland / dual land setup though generally runs something along the lines of $400-700 for a two color deck and up to something like $2500 for a three color deck. Obviously I am just talking about optimized max fetchland / ABU duel setups but my argument is more towards tuned lists at which point optimized mono color landbases generally only cost something like $100-200 (unless you get into really crazy utility lands). I personally do have 1-3 copies of each revised dual and 4-12 of each fetchland but even then if I were to have two three color decks with overlap it uses up a lot of those resources.
  • Goodstuff - I also think that mono colored decks end up with less goodstuff. When is the last time you built a blue deck and didn't ask yourself if you should be running Mana Drain, Cyclonic Rift, or Rhystic Study? Multicolored decks have a lot more of that and it kind of bores me. I really like finding the sweet deck tech that is to be found and I find that with mono color decks I dig deeper and tend to have less of that stuff in my decks. I generally find that decks with more colors end up with more auto includes. Add black to that blue deck and suddenly you are looking at Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor / Toxic Deluge and several more cards that are hard to not include.
  • Utility Lands - I think that in 3+ color decks there needs to be a lot more priority to fixing the manabase. I generally speaking will only run something like 3-4 utility lands in a three color deck and potentially just one or two tops in a five color deck. When it comes to mono color decks I often pack something like 12-18 nonbasic lands in. The need to fix is a lot easier in mono color and it opens them up to running a lot larger utility land packages. Its easier to have more than one or two Strip Mine effects which helps keep some other strong utility lands in check as well as running some strong utility lands like Emeria, Nykthos, or Cabal Coffers (in black obviously). Getting extra milage out of your lands is something that I think is EXTREMLY underrated with mono colored decks and it brings a lot more card advantage than you would think.
I don't force myself to have mono colored decks especially mono white, I just find that I am drawn to them. I often have three or more mono colored decks at any point in time. I have three right now and I have been contemplating two others of late. I enjoy the challenge and the puzzle that is mono colored. I think that in a lot of cases a well crafted mono color deck can be just as competitive as a multicolored one. Obviously if you are sitting down at a competative cEDH table you are still going to require to do things like interact with hands / stack so not every mono is the same and I think there is a ceiling for this argument as well but I think that at most tables of EDH that don't fall into cEDH I think that mono colored decks are incredibly viable.
Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cyberium » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
3 years ago
Off-topic: I can see why you want to bring this thread up after seeing that new mythic.

On-topic: With new cards like Keeper of the Accord, Archon of Emeria, and Verge Rangers, is mono-white doing better, or still the same because other colors are also getting more advantage?
I actually worked on updating this before I saw the new mythic. I saw the new mythic something like 6-8 hours after having worked on this thread. I was working on this thread for 3+ hours before I posted yesterday and I didn't see the new spoils until several hours after.

I think that new cards helps mono color decks more than multicolored decks. The reason for me saying that is that in a lot of cases multicolored decks have to cut better cards to include the new cards in their deck. Mono white for example has gotten a lot better card draw in recent years from mechanics like Endless Atlas and Monarch. A three color deck for example might add Generous Gift to its deck but having had access to Beast Within, Chaos Warp, Cyclonic Rift, and or Anguished Unmaking already its probably going to matter a lot less and require it to cut better cards to make that inclusion. Card pool expansion is significantly on the side of mono color deck's advantage because in general the advantage that the multicolored deck had is being diminished by card pool depth expanding for the mono color deck.



Mono white isn't an easy task by any means. There are some really sweet cards and synergies that you get to use but that isn't to say you can't run Emeria, the Sky Ruin in GW and have access to four fetchable duals and green's land ramp / nonbasic land search effects. Running an optimized fetchland / dual land setup though generally runs something along the lines of $400-700 for a two color deck and up to something like $2500 for a three color deck. Obviously I am just talking about optimized max fetchland / ABU duel setups but my argument is more towards tuned lists at which point optimized mono color landbases generally only cost something like $100-200 (unless you get into really crazy utility lands).

I personally do have 1-3 copies of each revised dual and 4-12 of each fetchland. I really enjoy the mono colors in part because they don't use up a lot of my resources, they often have more room for synergy as you have less goodstuff, and really there are so many cool mono colored commanders out there to be had. When is the last time you built a blue deck and didn't ask yourself if you should be running Mana Drain, Cyclonic Rift, or Rhystic Study? Multicolored decks have a lot more of that and it kind of bores me. I really like finding the sweet deck tech that is to be found and I find that with mono color decks I dig deeper and tend to have less of that stuff in my decks.

I also think that in 3+ color decks there needs to be a lot more priority to fixing the manabase. I generally speaking will only run something like 3-4 utility lands in a three color deck and potentially just one or two tops in a five color deck. When it comes to mono color decks I often pack something like 12-18 nonbasic lands in. The need to fix is a lot easier in mono color and it opens them up to running a lot larger utility land packages. Its easier to have more than one or two Strip Mine effects which helps keep some other strong utility lands in check as well as running some strong utility lands like Emeria, Nykthos, or Cabal Coffers (in black obviously). Getting extra milage out of your lands is something that I think is EXTREMLY underrated with mono colored decks and it brings a lot more card advantage than you would think.

I don't force myself to have mono colored decks especially mono white, I just find that I am drawn to them. I often have three or more mono colored decks at any point in time. I have three right now and I have been contemplating two others of late. I enjoy the challenge and the puzzle that is mono colored.
I wouldn't mind seeing a "nonbasic land-only" Balance effect, like everyone sac nonbasic lands till everyone has the lowest number of them. Make it cost 1WWW if necessary. All these ramping and fixing is tiresome.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Sorry, I have a bad habit of posting then editing my posts to make them look a bit cleaner lol.
Cyberium wrote:
3 years ago
I wouldn't mind seeing a "nonbasic land-only" Balance effect, like everyone sac nonbasic lands till everyone has the lowest number of them. Make it cost 1WWW if necessary. All these ramping and fixing is tiresome.
You can always try Balancing Act. Its not.... quite that but its good against tokens and ramp decks. It does require you to be a bit permanent light but I have always thought it to be an interesting effect. Some will frown on it given that its sort of LD based but it is quite punishing for those ramping land count. Back to Basics / Blood Moon / Ruination are all probably closer fits to what you were mentioning.
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Post by Couver » 3 years ago

Always happy when I see this thread get a bump. ISBPathfinder your dedication is appreciated!

I love building mono white and I find I check in on your analysis in this thread very often especially when I get stuck.

I've been trying to make Linvala, the Preserver work as a commander and got super stuck. Your tips helped me get past that block a bit. She's still unfortunately not ideal for commander but I intend to make it work :P

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Couver wrote:
3 years ago
Always happy when I see this thread get a bump. ISBPathfinder your dedication is appreciated!

I love building mono white and I find I check in on your analysis in this thread very often especially when I get stuck.

I've been trying to make Linvala, the Preserver work as a commander and got super stuck. Your tips helped me get past that block a bit. She's still unfortunately not ideal for commander but I intend to make it work :P
Its something I would be very happy to complete. I did another 8 commander entries over the last day or so finally getting me past Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle (YAY!) and yea, it does probably eat about a half hour per commander entry.

Good luck with Linvala. I want to go back and try to be a little more positive on more of the mid tier commanders and see if I can't update them more. There are enough vanilla 2/2 for 3WW commanders out there that I want to try to not discourage those that are a little bit challenging to build. Some of them I got a little crabby when I was powering through originally and I really did need a break from things as the first really big push took me several months of work to get done with. The fact that I can do like 10 commanders and it takes me HOURS to do that its a daunting task to finish this but once I get done I can fill in the commanders I missed and maybe give things a once over with a more positive light where possible.

This project has been a huge undertaking. No way do I do a second color lol.

EDIT: Several hours later I have gotten to the end of the list. Time to take a break. I will need to update the list for the commanders I missed since starting this project.
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Post by Couver » 3 years ago

If it's any help I've read through a lot of the ones you've done previously and I've never gotten a crabby tone. I think you are a realist with the ones that generally aren't going to lend themselves to leading a strong or overly functional deck.

And sometimes it is just natural to be disappointed. I know I was super sad with Syr Alin, the Lion's Claw after seeing that cycle of knights he was a part of. Just comparing him to Syr Konrad, the Grim is really tragic. It's hard to work up enthusiasm when the design of the commander is lacking. And some just don't work. Oriss, Samite Guardian is a card I've always loved for the art. But she just isn't for commander.

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

As i have said before, i absolutely love this project! Keep up the good work.
No worries about not expanding to other colors - those get enough love already.
That being sad, a thread should be a lot less work and a cool ongoing project. Don't feel obliged to write that one yourself though, haha.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I did another 8 commander entries over the last day or so finally getting me past Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle (YAY!)
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle being my absolute lovebird (hurr durr), i was wondering why you would include Stoneforge Mystic over Salvager of Ruin, Recruiter of the Guard and Ranger-Captain of Eos.
While your pick requires some degree of build around the other three are absolute natural fits. I really have to pick up the latter two asap...

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Post by schweinefett » 3 years ago

NoNeedToBragoBoutIt wrote:
3 years ago
As i have said before, i absolutely love this project! Keep up the good work.
No worries about not expanding to other colors - those get enough love already.
That being sad, a thread should be a lot less work and a cool ongoing project. Don't feel obliged to write that one yourself though, haha.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I did another 8 commander entries over the last day or so finally getting me past Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle (YAY!)
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle being my absolute lovebird (hurr durr), i was wondering why you would include Stoneforge Mystic over Salvager of Ruin, Recruiter of the Guard and Ranger-Captain of Eos.
While your pick requires some degree of build around the other three are absolute natural fits. I really have to pick up the latter two asap...
stoneforge can get you access to skullclamp as a carddraw and sort of sac outlet (ish). Also gets you Piston Sledge and Demonmail Hauberk, which could be hard to get otherwise?

Dunno, though for me, i'd probably say that your picks are possibly better in a vacuum.

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

schweinefett wrote:
3 years ago
Also gets you Piston Sledge and Demonmail Hauberk, which could be hard to get otherwise?
Oh, i didn't know about Piston Sledge until now! Interesting, should try that one out - see if only being able to sac ever other one of my creatures makes it viable.
Stoneforge Mystic could fetch me Demonmail Hauberk, Grafted Wargear and Skullclamp so far. Which is fine, yet most of them redundant.

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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

Speaking of Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, what do you think of the recent Relic Vial? I was glad to finally see a colourless aristocrat option. I was contemplating building a Teshar deck but I don't want to play easy combos. Also, with Idol of Endurance and Trove Warden on top of Sun Titan, would that give enough options to not be too reliant on Teshar?

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
Speaking of Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, what do you think of the recent Relic Vial?
Also, with Idol of Endurance and Trove Warden on top of Sun Titan, would that give enough options to not be too reliant on Teshar?
Thanks for pointing out Relic Vial! While it's a meh sac outlet, it's a solid finisher. Never would've thought of a possible Cleric Win Con for Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. Bontu's Monument doesn't enable sacs and is terribly off flavorwise, but enables infinite drain in the same vein.

I'm not to sure about the other two, since i run a pretty tight list. Idol of Endurance requires a rather stacked graveyard, if i have one i usually (attempt to) win already, without spending . The way our top tier pods go, i usually scoop if my commander ends up costing way too much, instead of battling through alternative routes. So Sun Titan would do a lot better elsewhere.
I can't tutor for or recur Trove Warden, so no natural fit for my synergistic list. But that's a very cool card for sure!

If you're looking to build Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle without infinites, you could check the log of my rebuild here. Should make it easy to backtrack my initial list, which was more of a midrange reanimator build.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Couver wrote:
3 years ago
If it's any help I've read through a lot of the ones you've done previously and I've never gotten a crabby tone. I think you are a realist with the ones that generally aren't going to lend themselves to leading a strong or overly functional deck.

And sometimes it is just natural to be disappointed. I know I was super sad with Syr Alin, the Lion's Claw after seeing that cycle of knights he was a part of. Just comparing him to Syr Konrad, the Grim is really tragic. It's hard to work up enthusiasm when the design of the commander is lacking. And some just don't work. Oriss, Samite Guardian is a card I've always loved for the art. But she just isn't for commander.
Yea unfortunately anthem effects like Syr Alin are actually reasonable effects in limited but generally tend to be really poor almost everywhere else. Damage prevention legends unfortunately have never been great but I would also mention that they really have not tried pushing the bounds on damage prevention in white in recent years. I think they understand that in general its not a very popular or good mechanic. White has more recently moved to effects that give payoff for lifegain pushing lifegain to be much better and more dynamic. I am not sure if they even would try to push for a strong damage prevention legend these days but I suppose it could happen at some point.
NoNeedToBragoBoutIt wrote:
3 years ago
As i have said before, i absolutely love this project! Keep up the good work.
No worries about not expanding to other colors - those get enough love already.
That being sad, a thread should be a lot less work and a cool ongoing project. Don't feel obliged to write that one yourself though, haha.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I did another 8 commander entries over the last day or so finally getting me past Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle (YAY!)
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle being my absolute lovebird (hurr durr), i was wondering why you would include Stoneforge Mystic over Salvager of Ruin, Recruiter of the Guard and Ranger-Captain of Eos.
While your pick requires some degree of build around the other three are absolute natural fits. I really have to pick up the latter two asap...
I added the ones you mentioned to the list. Keep in mind that it isn't supposed to be a complete list of everything that can or could be run but I think the ones you pointed out are good enough to add.

Stoneforge Mystic in Teshar - My starting point was that Skullclamp is insane and from there my next thoughts on equipment were jumping to Deathrender or Sword of Feast and Famine. I am quite fond of Deathrender in sac based decks but I suppose missing out on the commander historic cast trigger might rule it out. I do think that Sword of Feast and Famine is a great add though given how much advantage and recursion can be had in this deck and it curves with the commander well. Having flying already makes it fairly easy to connect on that one and pro black isn't an irrelevant protection to pick up on a commander centric deck. Beyond those I thought that Darksteel Plate or Lightning Greaves for the commander weren't out of the realm of possibility and those sac a creature equipment are a good idea even though I hadn't thought of those myself.

I think that as a whole there are a lot of very reasonable equipment that I would consider in a Teshar deck and Stoneforge being something that can be looped to get more of it as well as toolbox sounds great to me. Equipment also trigger Teshar's rez so its really not something I would write off myself.

EDIT: I am going to add Relic Vial and Piston Sledge to the Teshar list too. Its getting kind of long so I will probably try not to add a ton more things lol.
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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
  • Landbase Cost - Mono white isn't an easy task by any means. There are some really sweet cards and synergies that you get to use but that isn't to say you can't run Emeria, the Sky Ruin in GW and have access to four fetchable duals and green's land ramp / nonbasic land search effects.
I've run Emeria in 5 color decks (with good land setups), and even in 3 color decks with less-than-optimal land setups. It's surprisingly easy to turn on, and the opportunity cost is really rather low. I just rebuilt my dinosaur deck, and I run no ABU duals, or good fetches. I run the 7 new dual lands (3 shocks, 2 tangos, 2 bicycle), 2 mirage fetches, Myriad Landscape. That's already pretty good. Add in the green ramp with Nature's Lore, Farseek, Skyshroud Claim, and the like, and it's very easy to turn on.

Sword of the Animist also deserves a good shoutout for being stellar at bringing out large numbers of basics.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
  • Goodstuff - I also think that mono colored decks end up with less goodstuff. When is the last time you built a blue deck and didn't ask yourself if you should be running Mana Drain, Cyclonic Rift, or Rhystic Study? Multicolored decks have a lot more of that and it kind of bores me. I really like finding the sweet deck tech that is to be found and I find that with mono color decks I dig deeper and tend to have less of that stuff in my decks. I generally find that decks with more colors end up with more auto includes. Add black to that blue deck and suddenly you are looking at Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor / Toxic Deluge and several more cards that are hard to not include.
I... kind of disagree. Mono-white has as many auto-includes as any other color... If I'm playing white, even in multi-colored decks, I have to work to find a reason to NOT run Sun Titan or Emeria Shepherd.
Once we delve into mono-white, then you can add a good number of land-ramp cards and synergies to the list as well. Land Tax remains a powerful card. Most mono-white decks I build tend to run Stoneforge Mystic and/or Relic Seeker, paired with at least Sword of the Animist and Skullclamp. Usually Sword of Light and Shadow to round out the equipment package.

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