Is it time to cut signets entirely?

rogerandover
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Post by rogerandover » 4 years ago

So with the newly spoiled Arcane Signet and the talismans getting a full cycle with Modern Horizon, are the guild-signets now outdated? In non-green 3-color deck, I welcomed the talismans, but with this new one you can go up to 7 signets/talismans, which seems a bit much. Are we playing all or just some of them? I think signets are about to go bye-bye in my builds.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
So with the newly spoiled Arcane Signet and the talismans getting a full cycle with Modern Horizon, are the guild-signets now outdated? In non-green 3-color deck, I welcomed the talismans, but with this new one you can go up to 7 signets/talismans, which seems a bit much. Are we playing all or just some of them? I think signets are about to go bye-bye in my builds.
I still like signets over talismans despite the advantages because signets fix two colors simultaneously.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

I don't believe so.

For starters, it's a useful way of managing Sol Ring or (colourless) Utility Land mana. That's something the Talismans and Arcane Signet can't do.

Second, I'm not sure we've reached critical saturation of 2-CMC rocks. If you wanted to run like 8 of them (and some decks definitely do), you're probably still going to end up running Signets.

Third, there are worse rocks than the Signets. I still see lists with Fractured Powerstone and Mirage Diamonds.

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Post by tarotplz » 4 years ago

Both have their advantages. Ultimately I think it'll come down to the deck you're playing.

Some decks will definitly not run all of the available 2 mana rocks. Some might actually want all of them. Really depends on what you're trying to do.

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Post by Kelzam » 4 years ago

I don't think as many will cut Signets as you might think. Up until a certain experience level, players overall tend to see life loss as a downside. I know players who I still haven't been able to convince to run Painlands to help their mana base.

Personally? I could see running both. In a three color deck where I'm heavier in two colors than the third, I see myself running two of each. Like in a Sultai build where my Green/Blue/Black are split 45/35/20 I'd run the Simic and Golgari Signets and Talismans because I need Green more than I need Blue or Black but I still want mana fixing for those colors, so running Dimir Signet is worse than the other two.
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

In addition to signets and talismans, I'll also point out Fellwar Stone as an already-existing (if somewhat inconsistent) seventh 2-mana color-producing mana rock. It's possible that some decks will want seven (or eight) of them, but I imagine it will depend on the decklist - if you have a 4-mana commander you want to play on turn 3 every game, running every rock you can may be appropriate. And even if you only want five or six rocks, you'll still need to play at least one signet.

I generally prefer talismans due to them being easier to use - there is a reason that people play painlands like Caves of Koilos over the Darkwater Catacombs cycle. Signets can be better if you're running a lot of multicolored cards. Alternatively, if you're particularly concerned about your life total.

Overall, I'd say that I'm more excited for Arcane Signet in monocolor and two-color decks - being able to upgrade a three mana rock like Darksteel Ingot into a two mana rock is a much bigger improvement than an upgrade from producing two colors of mana to three.

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Post by OCPunisher » 4 years ago

Given that most commanders I play cost four mana, I want as many two-mana ramp spells as possible.

Arcane Signet will probably be relegated to non-green mono-colored decks, but it's still fine in two-color lists as well.
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Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not sure we've reached critical saturation of 2-CMC rocks.

Third, there are worse rocks than the Signets. I still see lists with Fractured Powerstone and Mirage Diamonds.
I absolutely agree! With Mana Crypt and Sol Ring house banned ( :love: ) in my playgroup i'm an absolute digger for solid 2-CMC rocks!

I'd rank the untapped ones as follows:
1. Arcane Signet
2. Talismans
3. Signets
4. Fellwar Stone
*
5. Mind Stone
6. Prismatic Lens
7. Thought Vessel
8. Everflowing Chalice
9. Fractured Powerstone
**

*3C and outside of g i would even rank it second to Arcane Signet.
**I am guilty of running this one in decks that didn't have access to Talismans just until recently.

My rule of thumb outside of g is to run the first 7 cycles, with Unstable Obelisk subbed in for Thought Vessel in decks that struggle to deal with enchantments or artifacts. With Arcane Signet released Everflowing Chalice could drop out of most decks.

I just did the math and i'll have to order Arcane Signet for 9/16 decks.

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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

There's a lot of variables there, but probably no. I like 5-9 cheap mana accelerants (depending on the average CMC of my deck generally and commander specifically) in the average deck, and don't own any Vaults or Crypts. So for the average non-green deck that leaves me adding Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, The Signet, The Talisman, and then whichever of Fellwar Stone, Wayfarer's Bauble, Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens, Thought Vessel, and Everflowing Chalice get me to my target number and have the best synergy with the deck's gameplan. Even in a 2-color (again, non-green) deck that does have access to Mana Crypt, I think cutting Signet would be a mistake in all but the most aggro and low-to-the-ground of lists.

Also, this may be just me, but I tend to prefer the Signet to the Talisman - yeah, Talisman can chain into more cards that same turn on turn 2 which signets can't do, but Signets are muuuuch better for decks with greedy mana costs and get increasingly better for 3 and 4-color decks where you can, for instance, have a UU start in Jeskai and then use Boros signet to still cast your commander on-curve.

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Post by TearsOfTomorrow » 4 years ago

Why not just use them all? In the latest tricolor deck I'm building, I'm gonna lump together sol ring, mana vault, mind stone, the three signets, the three talismans, and this new signet. 10 mana acceleration for 2 or less mana sounds great.

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Post by braden » 4 years ago

I've run Fractured Powerstone... so yeah. No, I think we'll still be seeing them around.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

I haven't actually played a signet in commander........ I think ever. So, I guess my answer is I don't see why this is changing anything but I also don't think signets are particularly good. If you have a good landbase its unlikely that the fixing of a signet is that good and from a ramp perspective a 2 mana stone that taps for one mana isn't great either.

The reason to run signets in my mind is if you are running less than optimal landbases. There is nothing wrong with that, but I think almost anything is viable when running budget substitutions.
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Post by TearsOfTomorrow » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
I haven't actually played a signet in commander........ I think ever. So, I guess my answer is I don't see why this is changing anything but I also don't think signets are particularly good. If you have a good landbase its unlikely that the fixing of a signet is that good and from a ramp perspective a 2 mana stone that taps for one mana isn't great either.

The reason to run signets in my mind is if you are running less than optimal landbases. There is nothing wrong with that, but I think almost anything is viable when running budget substitutions.
A signet on turn 2 means 4 mana on turn 3. Original dual lands will give you higher $$$ in your deck, but they won't give you that extra mana. For non-green decks this is more often than not significant.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

TearsOfTomorrow wrote:
4 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
I haven't actually played a signet in commander........ I think ever. So, I guess my answer is I don't see why this is changing anything but I also don't think signets are particularly good. If you have a good landbase its unlikely that the fixing of a signet is that good and from a ramp perspective a 2 mana stone that taps for one mana isn't great either.

The reason to run signets in my mind is if you are running less than optimal landbases. There is nothing wrong with that, but I think almost anything is viable when running budget substitutions.
A signet on turn 2 means 4 mana on turn 3. Original dual lands will give you higher $$$ in your deck, but they won't give you that extra mana. For non-green decks this is more often than not significant.
Assuming you want 2 mana accelerant in all of your decks. It can be relevant to ramp to 4 mana but generally speaking thats if you have a 4-5 mana commander. If your commander costs less or more than that then you probably need something other than 2 mana ramp for one effects. Also there are other options such as Mind Stone that can offer other functionality (draw) when drawn later assuming your land is already good.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Assuming you want 2 mana accelerant in all of your decks. It can be relevant to ramp to 4 mana but generally speaking thats if you have a 4-5 mana commander. If your commander costs less or more than that then you probably need something other than 2 mana ramp for one effects.
I'll agree that, if your commander costs 2, you frequently won't want any 2-mana ramp spells since you'll be casting your commander that turn - so 3+ mana is often superior, if you want ramp at all. If your commander costs 3, it's kind of a grab bag - 2 cmc doesn't speed out your commander, but it might let you cast something else on the same turn (for example, in my feather deck a 2 cmc rock lets me keep up a protective instant like gods willing).

Above cmc 3, though, 2-cmc rocks are really, really valuable for most strategies. The deck I've run with some of the most 2-cmc rocks is Kaervek the merciless, because it lets me hit 4 mana on turn 3, which in turn means I can frequently get 7 mana and play kaervek on turn 4, which is about as good as it gets without fast mana. That deck runs basically every 2-cmc rock that isn't total crap.

There's also the fact that having artifact mana diversifies your mana, so you aren't totally locked out by armageddon or even, say, blood moon.

Not to say every strategy wants ramp, but 2-cmc is a really good spot for most decks. There aren't many options for lower cmc, and more cmc is usually too slow and doesn't provide enough benefit, unless you're trying to ramp to really large amounts of mana. And even then, you probably want some 2-cmc ramp to accelerate you to your bigger ramp.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

I imagine Arcane Signet will become one of the more ubiquitous cards in the format, but the exact specifics of which decks will run what are up in the air. For two-colour I guess Arcane Signet > Talisman > actual Signet > Fellwar Stone, and I don't feel comfortable making these sort of assumptions for 3+ colour shells as I haven't actually ran one in ages. Even some two-colour decks are gonna be weird about it. My Feather, the Redeemed will probably adhere to this tiering and actually sub out Boros Signet to make room, whereas I imagine Daxos the Returned will hold onto Orzhov Signet, having already shunned the Talisman. All this is a function of Signet-transformable mana, required mana allotments, and probably a boatload of other factors I'm currently blanking on.
 
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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

Heck no! I mean Arcane Signet is lazy and an auto-include in decks. Other low cost fixing is always going to be great

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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

This is the 2nd best 2 mana rock. The first is Grim monolith, and Fellwar stone is the next best, generally speaking.

This will go in any deck that is interested in 2 mana rocks.... which is like, most non-green decks.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

I mean they're not always useful, sure. The primary reason I want signets is for colour fixing in tri-colour decks though, and this new one is not helpful in that respect. It gets me one colour, but so does Fellwar Stone.
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Post by benjameenbear » 4 years ago

Still going to run them in my colored decks. Fixing for colors is too important to entirely forgo from any type of 2+ color deck in my opinion.

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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

I just noticed they can't produce mana in color general decks. Poor design these days.

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Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

Sol Ring didn't make Worn Powerstone obsolete.

Extra rocks are extra rocks, some decks would prefer having more and quicker artifact mana.

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Post by umtiger » 4 years ago

It's nice to have another deck building tool.

Talismans can produce colorless which is relevant. Even losing life is relevant and can be a positive at times.

Signets are ridiculous with Mana Reflection and producing the the extra color from colorless is extremely nice.

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Post by Kemev » 4 years ago

At the end of the day, it's gonna depend a lot on the particular cards choices.

Azorius Signet probably sets up Dovin's Veto. Arcane Signet might not.
Arcane Signet looks pretty good as your only mana source post Armageddon. Azorius Signet doesn't.

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Post by t0rture_d0ct0r » 4 years ago

If your playgroup wants to ban them, go ahead. But the signets are too much of a staple. It'd be hard to cut them out.

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