Mana Crypt for every precon?

[Rasputin101]

What would happen if WotC printed Mana Crypt in every precon?
Obviously the price of the card would tank dramatically but would that put the card in the player's hands or would it just make it harder for players to get hold of the new precons due to people hoarding the packs?
This is kind of off the back of a chat I had recently about it being banned for being a fast start card.
If everyone had access to it (because its safe to say that less players have them than do) and had access at a decent price would that make the card more acceptable?
At a very base level it would add some much needed value to packs that in the past have been hard to justify the price.
Give it new art or something so its visibly different from the ones that came before it or something.

[Dunharrow]

If they were in all the preconstructed decks, it would be conceivable. At first, it would be hard to get the decks, but then after the 5th printing I am sure the price would drop down enough that everyone could get the decks they wanted.
The price point should not 'make it more acceptable'. If anything, the card being more ubiquitous at casual tables would make it more likely to get banned.

[cryogen]

The format would be even more hurt by explosive turn 1 starts.

[pokken]

I think on the balance it would be fine. I have ceased caring about explosive starts. Games gonna end might as well be with us all whomping on the guy who took 12 from mana coyote while trying to combo off.

I'm not fixing the coyote autocorrect. Because it is hilarious.

Also one possible benefit of overprinting crypt would be that if it really is a problem across the board it will bring that into focus.

I really hate how cost is a safety valve for the format. If everyone could afford cards a lot more of them might be problems.

[Sinis]

In practice, I haven't seen many mana crypts at casual tables. The scarcity/price tag of the card makes it kind of de facto banned for the vast majority of players I've encountered.

I have a copy (an original HarperPrism promo), but I don't generally play it. I only bust it out for when I'm building a competitive deck (which I have not done for a long time), or when I'm playing a truly underpowered/awful general (the last casual deck I played it in was Seshiro the Anointed snake tribal, which was dismantled around the release of Return to Ravnica).

I'm agnostic about whether it would be banned or not, but I have serious doubts Wizards would *ever* include it as anything other than a mythic in a non-precon print run, or as a promo card.

[cryogen]

I think on the balance it would be fine. I have ceased caring about explosive starts. Games gonna end might as well be with us all whomping on the guy who took 12 from mana coyote while trying to combo off.

I'm not fixing the coyote autocorrect. Because it is hilarious.

Also one possible benefit of overprinting crypt would be that if it really is a problem across the board it will bring that into focus.

I really hate how cost is a safety valve for the format. If everyone could afford cards a lot more of them might be problems.

Mana Coyote 1G



Creature - Wolf


Whenever a Wolf you control deals combat damage
to a player, add G to your mana pool.

2/2

[pokken]

I think on the balance it would be fine. I have ceased caring about explosive starts. Games gonna end might as well be with us all whomping on the guy who took 12 from mana coyote while trying to combo off.

I'm not fixing the coyote autocorrect. Because it is hilarious.

Also one possible benefit of overprinting crypt would be that if it really is a problem across the board it will bring that into focus.

I really hate how cost is a safety valve for the format. If everyone could afford cards a lot more of them might be problems.

Mana Coyote 1G



Creature - Wolf


Whenever a Wolf you control deals combat damage
to a player, add G to your mana pool.

2/2

I ain't gonna lie I had to scryfall that to be sure.

[MRHblue]

NO.

Cmon, we dont want everyone owning this stuff. Yuck

[hyalopterouslemur]

I think on the balance it would be fine. I have ceased caring about explosive starts. Games gonna end might as well be with us all whomping on the guy who took 12 from mana coyote while trying to combo off.

I'm not fixing the coyote autocorrect. Because it is hilarious.

Also one possible benefit of overprinting crypt would be that if it really is a problem across the board it will bring that into focus.

I really hate how cost is a safety valve for the format. If everyone could afford cards a lot more of them might be problems.

Mana Coyote 1G



Creature - Wolf


Whenever a Wolf you control deals combat damage
to a player, add G to your mana pool.

2/2

You forgot "Your mana pool doesn't empty at the end of your combat step." Also, since this is a new board, what mana tags do we have already?

[Candlemane]

I'd say be careful what you hope for. Like someone else pointed out, it could get the card banned, or lead to other bannings.

While I don't like losing to a more powerful deck that's full of money (though winning against them is sweet), I don't think printing all these things into the ground is the answer. It would make every game about who can go the fastest, and one of my metas is super light on removal because of a focus on their deck strategy over interaction.

Plus, as another mentioned, it would tie up the precons potentially, and I want to play with new cards like everyone else. It might even drive those singles up.

Now, I am promoting the idea that they create new, similar cards instead. OG cards retain value and power, but the newer, less full-wallet players get something.

Edit: Making newer similar cards might also lead to bans, but there would still be "fast Mana".

[pokken]

I'd say be careful what you hope for. Like someone else pointed out, it could get the card banned, or lead to other bannings.

While I don't like losing to a more powerful deck that's full of money (though winning against them is sweet), I don't think printing all these things into the ground is the answer. It would make every game about who can go the fastest, and one of my metas is super light on removal because of a focus on their deck strategy over interaction.

Plus, as another mentioned, it would tie up the precons potentially, and I want to play with new cards like everyone else. It might even drive those singles up.

Now, I am promoting the idea that they create new, similar cards instead. OG cards retain value and power, but the newer, less full-wallet players get something.

I think if the card is too good for everyone to have one it's too good - but I don't think mana crypt is too good (outside of competitive). I think it's usually worse than sol ring in non-competitive EDH - the life loss is legitimately an issue. I've taken 28 life from mana crypt and ancient tomb before (and lost, no surprise).

From a financial perspective it would do exactly the opposite. People would hoard these, crack them, sell the mana crypts and then the other singles would be chaff.

When there're expensive cards in precons the other cards invariably are dirt cheap for a while. If they cost 40 bucks and have 100 of value in a mana crypt, the other cards are worth negative 60 dollars. That won't actually pan out but stuff will be crazy cheap. Which i think is also great.

Presumably if they put crypt in there (which is extremely unlikely) they would know they needed to print more Though you never know with wizards.

[cryogen]

All of them, as far as I know. If any are missing hit me up and we'll add them.


Edit: d'oh, misquoted wrong person. That was aimed at hyper

[Lucifer, Sapere Aude]

Totally in favor. As someone that strongly believe in Magic as a "play to win" and not "pay to win" game, I'm all in favor for everything that gives players the same resources to fight in a equal duel despite their financial income. I strongly despise this elitist collectable/finacial aspect of this game, when that means to deprive other people to enjoy the game in the same way the luckiest do.

Also, if the Social Contract really works in your playgroup, fast mana is never a problem per se, not inside a multiplayer environment anyway. It's like 7 years already that me and my playgroup play EDH allowing the moxes and lotus as proxies (among many other things), and now we are so used to play with fast mana that we find terribly boring and slow to play any other format of Magic without that speed. (true story)

Finally, I personally believe that the crypt got a very fun and thrilling draw-back, especially when the owner is in the red zone.

[Candlemane]

I'd say be careful what you hope for. Like someone else pointed out, it could get the card banned, or lead to other bannings.

While I don't like losing to a more powerful deck that's full of money (though winning against them is sweet), I don't think printing all these things into the ground is the answer. It would make every game about who can go the fastest, and one of my metas is super light on removal because of a focus on their deck strategy over interaction.

Plus, as another mentioned, it would tie up the precons potentially, and I want to play with new cards like everyone else. It might even drive those singles up.

Now, I am promoting the idea that they create new, similar cards instead. OG cards retain value and power, but the newer, less full-wallet players get something.

I think if the card is too good for everyone to have one it's too good - but I don't think mana crypt is too good (outside of competitive). I think it's usually worse than sol ring in non-competitive EDH - the life loss is legitimately an issue. I've taken 28 life from mana crypt and ancient tomb before (and lost, no surprise).

From a financial perspective it would do exactly the opposite. People would hoard these, crack them, sell the mana crypts and then the other singles would be chaff.

When there're expensive cards in precons the other cards invariably are dirt cheap for a while. If they cost 40 bucks and have 100 of value in a mana crypt, the other cards are worth negative 60 dollars. That won't actually pan out but stuff will be crazy cheap. Which i think is also great.

Presumably if they put crypt in there (which is extremely unlikely) they would know they needed to print more Though you never know with wizards.

I don't know about it being much of an issue. Some decks don't care about the damage or life loss, and it still provides the fast mana. Being unlucky is the only real downside, and the life can be brought back up or the loss negated entirely by other effects. In a vacuum I'd say it's on par, but with 60~ other cards, it's not a sure thing. In one of my playgroups alone I can think of 5 decks that want it now for various reasons.

I'd be glad to be wrong, but I think initially it would drive the prices for some of the cards, specifically the new stuff, up if some managed to hoard a good quantity of the product. It would definitely inflate prices for the new cards in that regard since the singles would only come from breaking those decks apart.

I'm still on the idea of printing similar "fixed" versions for the newer or more budget restricted players than straight out reprinting these en mass. I'm afraid of it making every game about whoever gets the first fast rock. While there are players who prefer explosive early turns both for themselves and against them, it would mean every meta would have to adapt potentially to that change. In both of the metas I play in, there are some people who are just more competitive, and that's fine, but it would eventually drive towards some bad time until everything evened out.

Now, if they dripped reprints through the "not-masters" sets, that might be a little easier on the community as a whole. If they're in the precons for commander specifically, then I think it might be more of a problem. I am aware that the 'special' boosters for things like Modern Horizons price people out as well, but it would act like a control on the singles market I think. Eventual saturation through other means.

Thoughts?

[pokken]

I don't know about it being much of an issue. Some decks don't care about the damage or life loss, and it still provides the fast mana. Being unlucky is the only real downside, and the life can be brought back up or the loss negated entirely by other effects. In a vacuum I'd say it's on par, but with 60~ other cards, it's not a sure thing. In one of my playgroups alone I can think of 5 decks that want it now for various reasons.

I'd be glad to be wrong, but I think initially it would drive the prices for some of the cards, specifically the new stuff, up if some managed to hoard a good quantity of the product. It would definitely inflate prices for the new cards in that regard since the singles would only come from breaking those decks apart.

I'm still on the idea of printing similar "fixed" versions for the newer or more budget restricted players than straight out reprinting these en mass. I'm afraid of it making every game about whoever gets the first fast rock. While there are players who prefer explosive early turns both for themselves and against them, it would mean every meta would have to adapt potentially to that change. In both of the metas I play in, there are some people who are just more competitive, and that's fine, but it would eventually drive towards some bad time until everything evened out.

Now, if they dripped reprints through the "not-masters" sets, that might be a little easier on the community as a whole. If they're in the precons for commander specifically, then I think it might be more of a problem. I am aware that the 'special' boosters for things like Modern Horizons price people out as well, but it would act like a control on the singles market I think. Eventual saturation through other means.

Thoughts?

It's not that big of an issue but it often is in casual circles - the life loss is more meaningful the longer the game and the average game length is higher the lower the power level for the most part.

I would point you to the true-name nemesis box as probably the best example.

A good example is Baleful Strix which was a 20 dollar card before the commander deck reprint. The Mind Seize printing brought it down from 20 or so to 3 dollars and kept it at <5 dollars until its next reprint (I believe EMA, but can't recall for sure).

Cards other than the demand driver will crater if they put crypt in every set at 40 bucks. Chances are good they would sell at full retail and get bought out of retailers over and over again but if Wizards printed them appropriately the price would drop. We've already seen that Crypt can drop to <60 on the back of a masters set.

---

Re: Fixed versions

I would be really, really careful with this. The problem with a singleton format is you can't just do that because if you get a fixed sol ring you just run that *and* sol ring and now you're even more of an issue. I have thought of that. I would *love* if they errata'd Mana crypt to just do 2 damage every time you tap it, as that'd fix a ton of issues (infinite mana loops, time consuming resolution of triggers, etc.).

But if they printed another crypt that was say, a 1 mana ancient tomb, people would just run that too. Disastrous.

[Candlemane]

I don't know about it being much of an issue. Some decks don't care about the damage or life loss, and it still provides the fast mana. Being unlucky is the only real downside, and the life can be brought back up or the loss negated entirely by other effects. In a vacuum I'd say it's on par, but with 60~ other cards, it's not a sure thing. In one of my playgroups alone I can think of 5 decks that want it now for various reasons.

I'd be glad to be wrong, but I think initially it would drive the prices for some of the cards, specifically the new stuff, up if some managed to hoard a good quantity of the product. It would definitely inflate prices for the new cards in that regard since the singles would only come from breaking those decks apart.

I'm still on the idea of printing similar "fixed" versions for the newer or more budget restricted players than straight out reprinting these en mass. I'm afraid of it making every game about whoever gets the first fast rock. While there are players who prefer explosive early turns both for themselves and against them, it would mean every meta would have to adapt potentially to that change. In both of the metas I play in, there are some people who are just more competitive, and that's fine, but it would eventually drive towards some bad time until everything evened out.

Now, if they dripped reprints through the "not-masters" sets, that might be a little easier on the community as a whole. If they're in the precons for commander specifically, then I think it might be more of a problem. I am aware that the 'special' boosters for things like Modern Horizons price people out as well, but it would act like a control on the singles market I think. Eventual saturation through other means.

Thoughts?

It's not that big of an issue but it often is in casual circles - the life loss is more meaningful the longer the game and the average game length is higher the lower the power level for the most part.

I would point you to the true-name nemesis box as probably the best example.

A good example is Baleful Strix which was a 20 dollar card before the commander deck reprint. The Mind Seize printing brought it down from 20 or so to 3 dollars and kept it at <5 dollars until its next reprint (I believe EMA, but can't recall for sure).

Cards other than the demand driver will crater if they put crypt in every set at 40 bucks. Chances are good they would sell at full retail and get bought out of retailers over and over again but if Wizards printed them appropriately the price would drop. We've already seen that Crypt can drop to <60 on the back of a masters set.

---

Re: Fixed versions

I would be really, really careful with this. The problem with a singleton format is you can't just do that because if you get a fixed sol ring you just run that *and* sol ring and now you're even more of an issue. I have thought of that. I would *love* if they errata'd Mana crypt to just do 2 damage every time you tap it, as that'd fix a ton of issues (infinite mana loops, time consuming resolution of triggers, etc.).

But if they printed another crypt that was say, a 1 mana ancient tomb, people would just run that too. Disastrous.

Right-o, I had forgotten about True-Name. Well, I'm glad there is history to prove it out. If it does get the print, I'd hope they immediate reprint it in the next set of Commander as well, kind of what they did with Sol Ring.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to address the Fixed issue.

I promote the idea to possibly create so-called fixed versions of a card for commander, and ban the OG. This would mostly likely lead to a maelstrom of poop, but most things get kept without being totally taken away. So, it would be a 1-for-1 trade, not an addition. I should have been more clear.

[Mookie]

Mana Crypt reprint would be.... questionable, IMO. Ignoring the financial aspects entirely (price tanking, precons being cracked just for it, etc), and imagining a world in which Mana Crypt has the same availability as Sol Ring:
- more decks will be running Mana Crypt
- nongreen decks become slightly stronger, since they have another option for ramping (green decks are also stronger, just not as much)
- a larger percentage of games become nongames due to broken opening hands
- artifact hate becomes a bit more prevalent/impactful
- 3 and 4 mana commanders and card advantage engines become a bit stronger, since they can land on turn 2 more consistently
- life totals become slightly more relevant
- games end slightly faster on average

I would say that #2 and #6 are points in favor, while #3, #5, and #7 are points against. The games I most enjoy tend to be on the longer side and have some amount of back-and-forth, and speeding up the format means those games are less common.

[ISBPathfinder]

Honestly, if wizards hadn't printed the hell out of Sol Ring it would be expensive as hell too. I really hate the fact that they take the secondary market pricing into account as to what they print and what they don't. There are a lot of great commander cards that if they had printed as liberally as they did Sol Ring from the start that they wouldn't have the price tags they do today. Sol Ring would no doubt be over $100 if they hadn't done what they did with it.

This is not me saying that Mana Crypt should receive the same treatment so much as me saying that I don't like that current price tags keep them from including cards in the precons.

[CubJay]

The weird thing about commander is the huge price-range of decks that people play. From a competitive standpoint, it's probably a good idea to run Mana Crypt in almost every commander deck, but according to EDHrec, only 9% of decks run it. Why? Well it costs $200, that's why.

Wizards have often remarked that they have to consider the audience for a product when they decided the power-level of the cards they include. Commander precons are designed with a relatively casual audience in mind, so printing a $200 card in them would be bad for the availability of the product. Casual players would have a hard time getting their hands on the decks, since every vintage player and amateur speculator will snap them up. This already kinda happens with some of the more valuable challenger decks: dunno about you, but I haven't seen an Arcane Tempo deck for sale in a while. So while from a gameplay point of view it makes sense to say "print it and see what happens, ban it if it turns out that everyone having access to it is bad for the format," wizards kinda can't do it. They gotta print it in boosters first. (please do that wizards)

[ISBPathfinder]

The weird thing about commander is the huge price-range of decks that people play. From a competitive standpoint, it's probably a good idea to run Mana Crypt in almost every commander deck, but according to EDHrec, only 9% of decks run it. Why? Well it costs $200, that's why.

Wizards have often remarked that they have to consider the audience for a product when they decided the power-level of the cards they include. Commander precons are designed with a relatively casual audience in mind, so printing a $200 card in them would be bad for the availability of the product. Casual players would have a hard time getting their hands on the decks, since every vintage player and amateur speculator will snap them up. This already kinda happens with some of the more valuable challenger decks: dunno about you, but I haven't seen an Arcane Tempo deck for sale in a while. So while from a gameplay point of view it makes sense to say "print it and see what happens, ban it if it turns out that everyone having access to it is bad for the format," wizards kinda can't do it. They gotta print it in boosters first. (please do that wizards)

I own four of them but I think I am playing it in like... 2/10 of my current decks right now. The faster your decks are and the more proactive they are the better the card is but if you look at control or draw go strategies it becomes a lot more questionable. Playing with and or against combo decks also steps it up because your lifetotal tends to matter a lot less there.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt can be similar in use depending on how you are playing especially on the higher end due to combo. As you slide back to 75% commander and or even more casual than that it becomes a LOT more situational as to where it belongs. Sol Ring has no downside so it almost belongs everywhere (I have optimally passed on sol ring before).

[Taleran]

The weird thing about commander is the huge price-range of decks that people play. From a competitive standpoint, it's probably a good idea to run Mana Crypt in almost every commander deck, but according to EDHrec, only 9% of decks run it. Why? Well it costs $200, that's why.

Wizards have often remarked that they have to consider the audience for a product when they decided the power-level of the cards they include. Commander precons are designed with a relatively casual audience in mind, so printing a $200 card in them would be bad for the availability of the product. Casual players would have a hard time getting their hands on the decks, since every vintage player and amateur speculator will snap them up. This already kinda happens with some of the more valuable challenger decks: dunno about you, but I haven't seen an Arcane Tempo deck for sale in a while. So while from a gameplay point of view it makes sense to say "print it and see what happens, ban it if it turns out that everyone having access to it is bad for the format," wizards kinda can't do it. They gotta print it in boosters first. (please do that wizards)

I think while this has kinda been true in the past, this years decks will be a much different thing, wotc has been making sounds to the effect that the present stopping of Masters sets has allowed for more of their reprint 'budget' to be spent elsewhere as it were.

Now I don't expect Mana Crypt but I would not be surprised if the overall power of these decks goes up with this years.

[TheGildedGoose]

Yes, because the format desperately needs more fast mana.

[hyalopterouslemur]

All of them, as far as I know. If any are missing hit me up and we'll add them.


Edit: d'oh, misquoted wrong person. That was aimed at hyper

Didn't get my name right, but whatever. (It means transparent wings. It's a reference to an actual card.)

Did a test. How do you do generic mana 10-20 or hybrid mana?

[CubJay]

I own four of them but I think I am playing it in like... 2/10 of my current decks right now. The faster your decks are and the more proactive they are the better the card is but if you look at control or draw go strategies it becomes a lot more questionable. Playing with and or against combo decks also steps it up because your lifetotal tends to matter a lot less there.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt can be similar in use depending on how you are playing especially on the higher end due to combo. As you slide back to 75% commander and or even more casual than that it becomes a LOT more situational as to where it belongs. Sol Ring has no downside so it almost belongs everywhere (I have optimally passed on sol ring before).

That's an interesting point. Since I've never owned one, and neither has anyone I play with, I've only been able to draw inferences from the groups I pay attention to that do, and those tend to be very competitive groups (and thus have a heavy focus on combo) so crypt may be overrepresented there. I may have been bamboozled by a sampling bias.

Yes, because the format desperately needs more fast mana.

Thing is, this wouldn't adding more fast mana to the format. Mana Crypt is already in the format, it's just hard to get your hands on (and, per ISBPathfinder, maybe not every deck wants it)

[Cyberium]

I don't like it.

Majority of players prefer having time to enjoy and express their decks while socializing, it'd be hurtful to encourage new players to go as fast as possible, it's a bad habit to teach, a downward spiral, a vicious cycle.

In time, people will understand their play style and preferred format, but it'd be awful to push them for speed right away. I understand Mana Crypt is pricy and people want the price to go down, but this is NOT the way to do it.