Dear commander design team

[DirkGently]

Ha, I see this game of "I haven't cast a Craterhoof" and I raise you this: I haven't cast a craterhoof OR a cyclonic rift. Take that! This might be the only time my cheap habits allow for bragging rights, so here I am lol. Insert tapping forehead meme: "Can't cast staples if you're too broke to buy them". Plus I've been too chicken to play in person because of Covid so I haven't been playing much EDH either, although I really want to.

Lol well I've definitely cast a lot of cyc rifts, but usually in service of reigning in someone else's board, not usually to seal up a win. I like good answers, I don't like repetitive wincons. I do own a craterhoof, I just never actually put it into my decks.

I do like cyc rifting in response to craterhoof (or after attacks are declared). For sure

Whining about staples is hilarious to me because no one ever applies it to manabases, particularly fetches, which are more egregious in tandem with shocks and duals than any other cards in the format not named Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. It is completely absurd to me that four and five color decks can exist with virtually zero color production issues and everyone is okay with that, but if you cast an eight mana creature that requires a %$#%$#% board state you become persona non grata.

Now I have the urge to build a blue-based mana denial deck, because %$#% your lands.

It comes down to what sorts of games are fun and which aren't.

Games being resolved by a wincon I've seen a million times before, that largely invalidates what happened before? Boring. Lame. Boo. My experience has become worse.
Someone having outrageously good fixing? Doesn't really effect my enjoyment.

Ofc I'm usually that guy I've got the cards so I'm gonna play them. But I do play a lot of 1-2 color decks because they're more fun to build. Anyway, I think it's impossible to judge most cards in isolation, it's the whole deck that matters. Is my Phelddagrif deck less fun because it runs excellent mana? No. It's less fun because it's a mind prison with no escape.

FWIW craterhoof isn't nearly my least favorite card because it does require SOME setup and it does deal in non-arbitrary numbers, plus it's usually a pretty fast way to win that doesn't waste my time. There's probably ~ a hundred cards I dislike more (estimating). It doesn't appeal to my deckbuilding aesthetics though.

[Venedrex]

Ha, I see this game of "I haven't cast a Craterhoof" and I raise you this: I haven't cast a craterhoof OR a cyclonic rift. Take that! This might be the only time my cheap habits allow for bragging rights, so here I am lol. Insert tapping forehead meme: "Can't cast staples if you're too broke to buy them". Plus I've been too chicken to play in person because of Covid so I haven't been playing much EDH either, although I really want to.

Lol well I've definitely cast a lot of cyc rifts, but usually in service of reigning in someone else's board, not usually to seal up a win. I like good answers, I don't like repetitive wincons. I do own a craterhoof, I just never actually put it into my decks.

I do like cyc rifting in response to craterhoof (or after attacks are declared). For sure

Whining about staples is hilarious to me because no one ever applies it to manabases, particularly fetches, which are more egregious in tandem with shocks and duals than any other cards in the format not named Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. It is completely absurd to me that four and five color decks can exist with virtually zero color production issues and everyone is okay with that, but if you cast an eight mana creature that requires a %$#%$#% board state you become persona non grata.

Now I have the urge to build a blue-based mana denial deck, because %$#% your lands.

It comes down to what sorts of games are fun and which aren't.

Games being resolved by a wincon I've seen a million times before, that largely invalidates what happened before? Boring. Lame. Boo. My experience has become worse.
Someone having outrageously good fixing? Doesn't really effect my enjoyment.

Ofc I'm usually that guy I've got the cards so I'm gonna play them. But I do play a lot of 1-2 color decks because they're more fun to build. Anyway, I think it's impossible to judge most cards in isolation, it's the whole deck that matters. Is my Phelddagrif deck less fun because it runs excellent mana? No. It's less fun because it's a mind prison with no escape.

FWIW craterhoof isn't nearly my least favorite card because it does require SOME setup and it does deal in non-arbitrary numbers, plus it's usually a pretty fast way to win that doesn't waste my time. There's probably ~ a hundred cards I dislike more (estimating). It doesn't appeal to my deckbuilding aesthetics though.

Yeah that makes sense. I actually don't mind rift or hoof that much either. Games gotta end. The card I despise the most is also at the top of EDHREC's salt list. Winter Orb. That card drives me up the wall like nothing else. Why yes my idea of fun is waiting 5 turns to cast a single spell as I untap 1 land per turn. Only to have that spell be countered by the blue player's one spell. I don't mind a fast death, but a slow agonizing game where no one gets to do anything?

What's the point of playing that? Why should I not just leave and do something that's actually fun instead of dying of boredom as we pass the turn where no one can play anything. And heck, unless you're playing Urza, there's better cards if you want to win at all costs. Thassa's Consultation says as much.

[toctheyounger]

I get the fetches thing myself too. And Dirk is right. Its not in your face so its not as aggravating. It can be, with a Crucible (or magus thereof) and a Field or whatever, but mostly it streamlines games in terms of efficiency so its probably a net positive to the format, at least for those that can afford them. They are very, very good cards, and the less time we all spend grinding through our decks to play what we wanna play through a less streamlined labd base the better. My biggest gripe is that they're not more available, but honestly even if wotc flooded us with them they'd still hold a price tag to match in game value.

What gets me about them (and I get neurotic about exceptions to a system of rules that works well so this might be me) is off color fetches. I get how they sneak through the CI thing but it irks me something fierce that they do. A part of it might be me having very few of them abd having to stretch them thinly over way too many decks, but part of it is also 'if I can't run forest in my Boros deck why can I run a Windswept Heath?' It doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh and the content creator thing - well it is a phenomenon, especially for JLK and to some degree Jimmy Wong (way less). It definitely shouldn't be though, people are pretty eager to get caught up in the hype of new releases and new brews, and throw caution to the wind along with their dollars. I think some of the better content creators are a bit more measured about it, with vids gauging the worth of buying particular pieces or what have you. I think its a precarious topic to get close to, but end of the day if people have money burning holes in their wallet they're just looking for an excuse to spend it.

[DirkGently]

What gets me about them (and I get neurotic about exceptions to a system of rules that works well so this might be me) is off color fetches. I get how they sneak through the CI thing but it irks me something fierce that they do. A part of it might be me having very few of them abd having to stretch them thinly over way too many decks, but part of it is also 'if I can't run forest in my Boros deck why can I run a Windswept Heath?' It doesn't make any sense to me.

Personally I love off-color fetches. I generally like finding loopholes in rules :D I'll be sad if the RC ever finds a way to specifically outlaw them.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Now I have the urge to build a blue-based mana denial deck, because %$#% your lands.

"Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete."

[Treamayne]

My Staple philosophy (summarized) for paper:

- Fetches: 1 of each across all decks so they are limited to the decks that need them, in the color that needs them (e.g. Garza Vampires uses UB and BR fetches (since the proportion of B is much higher) but not the UR fetch which is more useful elsewhere). Never use off-color fetches because I feel it is against the spirit of the format and this philosophy.

- Mana-fixing/Ramp staples: I allow up to five across all of my decks, so they only appear where they are most needed. Mono-color (like Tithe) I keep one, Cycles (like Signets) one of each across all decks, Colorless (like Sol Ring or Mind Stone) three each across all decks, Color-fixing (like Command Tower, Arcane Signet) five of each across all decks.

- Creature Staples: Things like Craterhoof Behemoth are limited to tribal decks of the appropriate type, so it's in my Gahiji Beast deck and nowhere else. Things like Seedborn Muse aren't in any decks because I do not currently have a G spirit deck.

- Non-creature staples: Things like Rite of Replication can only go in on-theme decks (it's in Esper Shapeshifters - as the theme is creature and token copies of things), so cards like Cyclonic Rift aren't in any decks because the only deck I have with a bounce theme is Toothy Mono-U Illusions - and that is self-bounce.

*Note: There are a few exceptions to the Mana-fixing part in some of my test/older MTGO decks

YMMV

[materpillar]

Whining about staples is hilarious to me because no one ever applies it to manabases, particularly fetches, which are more egregious in tandem with shocks and duals than any other cards in the format not named Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. It is completely absurd to me that four and five color decks can exist with virtually zero color production issues and everyone is okay with that, but if you cast an eight mana creature that requires a %$#%$#% board state you become persona non grata.

Now I have the urge to build a blue-based mana denial deck, because %$#% your lands.

I use fetches and duals so I can cast the Pyromancy, Mindshrieker, Infernal Genesis, Ancient Ooze and Autochthon Wurm in my 5c deck with virtually zero color production issues..
Other people cast Craterhoof Behemoth.
We are not the same.


Pretty sure I've never cast Craterhoof Behemoth or Cyclonic Rift outside of cube.

[Jemolk]

Good manabases can be used to cast fun jank as well as boring staples. I've stretched my one copy of every ABUR dual across several 5c decks via proxies, and don't even feel slightly bad about doing so. If someone can't afford them, I encourage them to proxy something anyway. I then use the manabase thus created to power such things as 5c Kami (as in, specifically Kamigawa spirits) and Jodah High CMC Bulk Rare Tribal. They're also pretty important for several decks that really, really care about basic land types for one reason or another, like my build of Doran treefolk, where the Forest type matters a great deal, and the others to a decent degree, and Sol'Kanar demon tribal, which some people have referred to as Grixis Mono-Black, and which really does care about Swamps, basic or not.

Sol Ring and similar acceleration is a different story, of course, but even then, I'm less down on it than most others. The other most frequent format for me to play is Vintage, where I run one of the few fair decks in U/W Landstill. I know better than most that those sorts of enablers can enable answers as well as threats, having done things like stopping t2 lethal damage thanks to a Supreme Verdict off a Black Lotus.*

The point is, you can do boring, degenerate things with them, or you can do fun things with them, and it's really down to what threats and answers you put in your deck far more than its ramp and fixing. That, I think, is why people get much more up in arms about Hoof. As for Rift -- if it just wasn't usable offensively, it would be much less of an annoying problem.



*I played turn 1 Flooded Strand and passed. My opponent played Bazaar of Baghdad, tapped it, discarded two Vengevines and a Basking Rootwalla, then cast a free Hollow One and swung for 8 with the Vengevines. I cracked the strand, Swordsed one of the Vengevines, upkeep cast Enlightened Tutor for Black Lotus, drew it for turn, played it and a land, and Verdict. I won that game.

[duducrash]

Whining about staples is hilarious to me because no one ever applies it to manabases, particularly fetches, which are more egregious in tandem with shocks and duals than any other cards in the format not named Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. It is completely absurd to me that four and five color decks can exist with virtually zero color production issues and everyone is okay with that, but if you cast an eight mana creature that requires a %$#%$#% board state you become persona non grata.

Now I have the urge to build a blue-based mana denial deck, because %$#% your lands.

Fetch land discourse has been so rampant in literally every other format i dont think edh players have the energy to pick this fight.

But are manabases the problem? I hate the decks they go into much more. If no more dual lands were printed since 2013 idk 4c and 5c would still have sweet manabases and virtually no downside


Edit : lmao I agree too. Everyone hates how fast the game is but you play 1 Thalia effect and become fun enemy for life. People want to do nasty stuff and get mad when someone does it before them

[toctheyounger]

Edit : lmao I agree too. Everyone hates how fast the game is but you play 1 Thalia effect and become fun enemy for life. People want to do nasty stuff and get mad when someone does it before them

This one gets me. I'm the Thalia player. And to me, I'm the arbiter of fair play in the format. I don't run enough board control to actually make people miserable, just enough to make sure everyone is on a level pegging.

To me its massive cognitive dissonance; folks complain about fast mana and decks getting faster but no one has the balls to admit that control is the answer to it. Its baffling to me. Instead, people point fingers abd yell STAX like a witch hunt.

To me, if your deck isn't the one popping off at a moment notice it should have some tools at its disposal to stop the one that is. Makes perfect sense to me if you want to win games.

[TheGildedGoose]

Control is the way. I'm not here for a good time, I'm here for a long time.

[3drinks]

This is a thread. And I'm sure for my takes, I'm probably going to eat the flaming salt of half a dozen people, but here we are.

No, I'm not watching that CZ video to listen to Josh and Jimmy shill more for Gilden brand underwear. I don't care. Thank you Mookie for the synopsis, however. Always a gem. Now, it's true the format is outta control, but you still play it, I still play it, so honestly it can't be that out of control if you're still playing it.......if you really didn't like it, you'd quit and go somewhere else. So all this internet grandstanding is all just for clicks and internet clout, in other words, it's not worth anything. Just sit down, shut up, and play the game that's free to play, unsanctioned so you can proxy up whatever you want, knock some beers (or pops, I don't judge) back and just enjoy yourselves. It's not that serious guys. The format is what it is and it's not going to change as long as the current leadership is whom they are.

If you want change, present a new idea to your group. I love modern commander because it's what you love about commander without the busted ubiquitous fast mana and undercosted universal tutours. It still has the answers you need, and it still has some tutours, you still do cool things, but the greatest offenders are gone. Cradle, Survival, Mana Crypt, one mana instants, all gone. It's honestly a fun variant with far less random variance than conventional play. Or build a cube. Proxy a cube hell, I don't care. Control the environment you and others play in, Control Your Narrative (not that anyone here will get that reference).

These internet pissing contests though? Actually worthless. Who cares what some "influencer" says or doesn't say. Fact is, they're all humans just like we all are, and like any other humans they all are entitled to the singular vote their opinion counts for, much like everyone else. Just because they have a Twitch or a Youtube, or a Patreon does not mean they hold any sway or rather, any right to hold any sway over weak-minded simps that can't make up their mind on even the most menial tasks that they rely on an internet rando to tell them what's good, what they should play, or what they should have for dinner. You know me by now, I don't bullcrap around, and am known for my poignant opinions that are wildly unpopular with large groups. I've been banned for my ideologies around stax and the game as a whole by online communities and I really don't give a damn. I guess what I'm trying to say is, these discussions are garbo because at the end of the day as long as cards are legal to play, players will play them. Don't complain. You know what's legal as do others. Either plan for them, accept losing to them, or play them yourself. I hate to be so black-and-white, but that's really what it all comes down to.

- You don't like losing to Blood Moon or Ruination? Play some more basics and learn how to fetch appropriately, including not playing greedy decks.
- You have the right to play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker into Rushwood Elemental. That is fair. I have the right to stop you from playing so egregiously. That is also fair. Stop the double standards, taking things personally, and realize this is a game and we're both trying to win. Full stop.
- You don't like losing to my Yawgmoth's Will? Play some graveyard hate. It's not uncool, unstylish, or even unpopular, in fact it's actually kinda hot to show that level of responsibility and maturity to the game.
- Does one person just sit around and draw cards and play with themselves and you dislike that? Here, have you heard of this card Chains of Mephistopheles? Suddenly that Rhystic Study doesn't look that impressive. Can't afford one? Proxy it. This is an unsanctioned format with literally $0 to buy in, we're not on the pro tour here, go nuts. I'd rather get defeated by you because of your cunning play, rather than beat you because of my wallet and twenty-five year old collection and play experience.
- Don't know where to look? Just ask. There's tons of players out there happy to help, especially boomer players like myself or Sinis that can show you the ropes and explain why you want [card x].

Idk. I'm gonna start rambling now, and I've been sippin' on this cocktail for a minute. Y'all have at it, throw your rotten fruit at my hot takes, or whatever else you gotta do. Have a good night, @mtgnexus.

[DirkGently]

I'm mostly just wondering who is playing Rushwood Elemental in the year of our lord 2022?

To me it mostly reads as a cEDH attitude from someone who isn't actually playing against (or, arguably, with) cEDH decks.

[kirkusjones]

I feel like I say this a lot, so I'll misuse a different metaphor this time. Everybody has at least one genie (some of us many) they seem desperate to shove back in the bottle. The problem is that Wizards makes the bottles and the RC (rightly) rarely swings the hammer to break them.

Calm yourselves, Iagos. If the state of the format ruffles your feathers that badly, you've got bigger problems than fast mana and off-colored fetches.

On a similar note, The Big Bad Hoof is almost always as telegraphed as a voltron'd commander. If someone manages to assemble lethal for 2+ players + Craterhoof Behemoth in a single turn, I'm all for letting the game be over.

Don't want it to be over? I understand. Plan accordingly. And make part of that plan "learning to accept losing to things I don't like".

[toctheyounger]

All 3 of the last 3 comments are right and none are mutually exclusive. People do need to run more removal and control. They also need to get less salty and learn to take their lumps. And finally everyone has quirks that they enjoy or don't enjoy. None of that is guaranteed in a game and it's important to learn to adapt to the game you're in and enjoy what you can about it.

[NZB2323]

Of all the things to complain about in the format, 2 cmc rocks seems like a silly thing to complain about, when it helps non-green decks ramp and can be neutered by green cards like Collector Ouphe and bane of progress.

I would be for a Dockside Extortionist reprint, but also white hatebear answers to dockside and 2 cmc rocks, maybe a white Collector Ouphe that has flash. White is the weakest color in the format, and you can make fair white hatebears that aren't overpowered. Glorious Protector is a fantastic answer to Cyclonic Rift, and Smothering Tithe is great against decks that draw a bunch of cards, but Aven Mindcensor is outdone by Opposition Agent when black is already much stronger than white. I'd be for more fair, not overpowered, white hatebear answers to some of the "problem cards," of the format.

[Sinis]

I'm mostly just wondering who is playing Rushwood Elemental in the year of our lord 2022?

To me it mostly reads as a cEDH attitude from someone who isn't actually playing against (or, arguably, with) cEDH decks.

I played this in a Nylea devotion deck when Theros came out, but I haven't played it since. I still have it.