September Ban List Update

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 3 days ago

Link to announcement: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2021/09/
Sheldon Menery wrote:RULES

Rule 10 is removed. Rule 11 is renumbered to Rule 10.

CARDS

Worldfire is Unbanned

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is Banned

Rule 10, which stated that commanders were subject to the legend rule, was created in the days when the legend rule was less stable; the rule remained as an artifact of that time. It's not a Commander-specific rule, but simply existed as a clarification. Since it's redundant, we chose to eliminate it. This change is administrative only and will have no impact on how games are played. Rule 11 bumps up to Rule 10.

Worldfire was once banned due to the problematic interaction with floating mana and having access to your Commander. We want to foster a Commander environment where 8- and 9-mana spells are viable and likely to show up in a game, so we evaluate the expensive ones in that context. Unlike Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, which we continue to believe are problematic in that environment, the level of effort needed to make Worldfire effective is sufficient that we suspect it will not be as much of an issue. There are already cheaper ways to do similar things in the format. We believe the social contract and robust pregame discussions will keep Worldfire out of games in which it doesn't belong.

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim has been a much-discussed card that is both popular to play with and unpopular to play against. There are many problems with the card, but the greatest is that in the low-to-middle tiers where we focus the banlist, Golos is simply a better choice of leader for all but the most commander-centric decks. Its presence crushes the kind of diversity in commander choice which we want to promote. You can drop in Golos and a few 5-color lands into a random deck and get all the ramp and card advantage you would ever want from a commander, with no worries about your mana base. Golos' ability effectively reduces the commander tax to one and once you hit seven mana (with Golos assuring that you have WUBRG and helping you get there quickly), you don't need to do anything for the rest of the game except cast spells for free—something we always want to be careful about. We've talked to the folks in Studio X and they understand the problems created by generically-powerful five-color commanders that don't have WUBRG in their mana cost. We don't expect similar cards to come from them in the future, so a surgical strike now makes sense. We understand that many players love Golos, so we don't take this action lightly. In the end, the health of the format is our primary concern and we find Golos unhealthy. While Kenrith, the Returned King is a similarly flexible and popular commander for good stuff five color decks, we see it as a clear step down from Golos.
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Post by pokken » 3 days ago

And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out Golos.
cryogen wrote:
3 days ago
olos is simply a better choice of leader for all but the most commander-centric decks. Its presence crushes the kind of diversity in commander choice which we want to promote. You can drop in Golos and a few 5-color lands into a random deck and get all the ramp and card advantage you would ever want from a commander, with no worries about your mana base.
This argument sounds familiar!

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Post by Magiqmaster » 3 days ago

I only faced him once, and luckily I was able to destroy Golos right after he entered play and the opponent never got to cast him again in that game.

Anyway, I can imagine that a LOT of players will be very happy to see Golos gone....


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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 days ago

Glad to see him gone, a good update all around.
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Post by illakunsaa » 3 days ago

I just %$#% built the sorrows path deck and now its banned.

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 days ago

Finally
They really dragged their feet with this one.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 days ago

illakunsaa wrote:
3 days ago
I just %$#% built the sorrows path deck and now its banned.
That's rough, buddy.
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Post by Maluko » 3 days ago

In my 10+ years playing Commander, this was by far the ban list announcement that most surprised me.

I had already lost all hope that Golos would never be banned, and yet here we are today. I will not miss it in the slightest. I've never played Golos myself, but I have faced many Golos decks ever since its printing, which is a testimony to how ubiquitous and generic it was. Not once have I ever had fun playing against those decks.

Also really surprised to see Worldfire getting unbanned. The card was banned almost three months after its printing, which to me signalled it was going to stay on the banned list forever. Still reticent about seeing the card going wild again. But I applaud the initiative by the RC. Even if it ends up being banned again, I'm glad they decided to test the waters.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 days ago

Not having WUBRG in his casting cost isn't that big a deal, IMHO. He's emblematic of a bigger problem that they touched on in the announcement: commanders that serve as self-sustaining value engines that require little to no setup. Having so many easy buttons in the format makes it so much worse. I do wonder if there will be any backlash. Sure, plenty of us are rejoicing, but you can't just ban the most popular commander ever without repercussions. Anyway...

May Golos burn in hell forever.
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Post by plushpenguin » 3 days ago

I always thought Golos was literal deckbuilding easymode and training wheels. Won't miss him one bit.

I don't think Worldfire is an impactful card. You need like at least 12-13 mana to make it lethal and it still has a chance of whiffing if someone has creature removal at the time.
RxPhantom wrote:
3 days ago
Not having WUBRG in his casting cost isn't that big a deal, IMHO. He's emblematic of a bigger problem that they touched on in the announcement: commanders that serve as self-sustaining value engines that require little to no setup. Having so many easy buttons in the format makes it so much worse. I do wonder if there will be any backlash. Sure, plenty of us are rejoicing, but you can't just ban the most popular commander ever without repercussions. Anyway...

May Golos burn in hell forever.
The generic casting cost does actually matter quite a bit. It makes colorless fast mana significantly better with him than other 5C commanders (where it would still be good regardless of its inability to pay for WUBRG)

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Post by Venedrex » 3 days ago

Just played a game versus Golos with my Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge Historic Brawl deck yesterday. It went about how you would expect. Basically you can try and fight them, or just auto-concede because you realize the power level disparity is so massive.

But you know what really grinds my gears? The ubiquity of five color commanders. I wouldn't mind so much if it was a rare occurrence to run into one, but I'd wager a sizable portion of all my games are versus Esika, Golos, or Kenrith. While this obviously doesn't effect historic brawl... Good riddance.

Golos is one of a long line of Commanders that are cut from the cloth of five-color op stuff. The problem about five color commander's that it's taken Wotc a long time to realize is that they aren't hard to cast in Commander. (especially not in Golos's case lol) and of course having access to five colors is the best thing to do in the format most of the time.

So when Wotc makes five-color commanders, instead of going with the usual "its five color so it should do something broken because five color is hard to pull off in a game and five color can do anything haha" they should make five color commanders who are hyper specific and themed around a under supported idea, rather than rewarding you for jamming five color goodstuff by giving you free spells and infinite mana sinks. Just a bloody thought.

P.S. I've played versus Golos in Standard, Historic, Historic Brawl, Brawl, and if I had been playing in person Commander I surely would've played against him there. I hated seeing him on the other side of the field each time, mostly because he always seemed to bring his best bud, Field of the Dead.
Love this decision to boot super solemn.

EDIT: As far as WUBRG in cost, that does make a difference in formats like Standard or Historic where there aren't fetches. But in Commander, WUBRG is not that big of an issue for most players who build a five color deck thanks to the massive amounts of lands to choose from in the format, and green fixing/ramp.

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Post by Sharpened » 3 days ago

Maluko wrote:
3 days ago
Also really surprised to see Worldfire getting unbanned. The card was banned almost three months after its printing, which to me signalled it was going to stay on the banned list forever. Still reticent about seeing the card going wild again. But I applaud the initiative by the RC. Even if it ends up being banned again, I'm glad they decided to test the waters.
Worldfire was banned almost immediately, but it was banned for other cards sins, not it's own. It seemed like it was banned more for similarity to cards on the banned list (Sway of the Stars, Upheaval, Biorythym) than for what it actually did. Other cards that ate early bans tended to show that they deserved them (Griselbrand and Emrakul in particular). I don't know that Worldfire saw much play. I remember thinking the ban felt kind of unnecessary.

I like the philosophy shift. Big mana spells are going to do game winning stuff, that alone is not necessarily a reason to ban them.

I have no desire to play with or against the card. But I can't imagine its going to be popular (to play), and even in games where it does see play, I hardly think it's going to have a more negative effect on the game than any other 10ish mana haymaker sorcery. Seems fine.

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Post by Sharpened » 3 days ago

Venedrex wrote:
3 days ago
Just played a game versus Golos with my Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge Historic Brawl deck yesterday. It went about how you would expect. Basically you can try and fight them, or just auto-concede because you realize the power level disparity is so massive.
Golos is on my list of auto-concedes in historic brawl. Just unpleasant. I'll usually give the other 5 color goodstuff decks a chance, although I'm not a fan of them. I also auto-concede if I see a Fires of Invention. I've countered it and conceded, because it bothers me that that card is allowed with how it interacts with the format.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 days ago

Honestly I didn't expect them to ban him. I guess it feels like there has been this big wave of power creep in the last few years and we get an acknowledgement of like 2-3 cards is all with bans. I appreciate the RC banning him, I am just waiting for a lot of other things to also be banned (Thassa's Oracle being the top of my list).
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 days ago

Oracle is not that bad without Flash in my experience.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 days ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 days ago
Oracle is not that bad without Flash in my experience.
My complaints about oracle are not cEDH based. Its a much worse card to encounter when not playing cEDH because its "technically" not a combo (even though it totally is) so I know a lot of people who play it in 75% commander. Its a much worse offender as you go to more casual magic because the expected counterplay being primarily counterspells see less play.

I am not saying that your argument is strictly speaking about cEDH but I haven't ever once seen Flash be cast but I have seen a ton of Thassa's Oracle cast. I don't believe I have ever seen a cast Oracle not resolve in part due to how a lot of the decks that draw the entire deck quickly often having a grip of like 3 free counterspells in hand when they do it. It can be just as toxic as the other variants but it costs less mana making it easier to do and limiting interaction options. I think all three can go and be banned but I don't suspect a request like that to ever take.
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Post by JWK » 3 days ago

Good riddance to Golos. Playing against it was always at best unpleasant, more often completely miserable. This is good news.

I am not fond of Worldfire being unbanned, but I don't expect to encounter it often enough for it to actually be an issue.
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Post by 3drinks » 3 days ago

Oh, right, this thread was stickied to the top that's why I didn't see it. Maybe I should read those other stickies, but eh...

Good riddance Golos, an actual blight on the format that served literally no good. I never saw a game with Golos and heard people say "oh, I'm glad I played that". Contributes literally nothing constructive to the format, we're better off with it gone.

Oh cool worldfire is unbanned maybe I'll grab a cop-- lol silly r/mtgfinance, you can't spec on that card. Can't wait until they reprint it or people realize it's never been good, to make every one of these trash bag hack "investors" lose their butts on this buyout.
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Post by Sharpened » 3 days ago

3drinks wrote:
3 days ago
Oh cool worldfire is unbanned maybe I'll grab a cop-- lol silly r/mtgfinance, you can't spec on that card. Can't wait until they reprint it or people realize it's never been good, to make every one of these trash bag hack "investors" lose their butts on this buyout.
The fact that it has spiked from $1.50 to approx $30 over the course of the last 5 hours is kind of hilarious. Especially as next to no one has a need for this card.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 days ago

Looking forward to trying out Worldfire in my Chandra deck after putting a few upkeep damage emblems in play. Just need to wait until the price settles on what is otherwise a jank card.

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Post by materpillar » 3 days ago

I'm sad that I can't run Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in the 99. Playing him and spinning him is immensely enjoyable. It was correct to give him the boot for sure though.

I'd have been just as happy to see Worldfire stay banned forever. I don't enjoy Counterspell or lose cards.

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Post by Hawk » 3 days ago

I get the experiment with Worldfire after time to think. This is a 9 mana card that is miserable but ought to end the game once cast one way or another. I'ts not terribly good in most R/x decks that are popular right now. Its best use is floating the mana to cast your commander afterwards but that's a minimum of 10 mana to do anything meaningful alongside a Norin the Wary or Zurgo Bellstriker and 10 mana is non-trivial in monored (nevermind 12+ for someone who can better abuse the card like Zo-Zu the Punisher or Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh // Chandra, Roaring Flame). It's a bit spookier to think of this as the de facto best endgame for Gallia of the Endless Dance or Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar + Gx nonsense commander decks, but I think that's a niche enough thing for again some low-play commanders.

I also think fair enough with the answer of why unban this and not Biorhythm or Coalition Victory. Coalition Victory, if unbanned, would near-automatically get added to most 5C decks and would likely become the best win-con for most of them. Biorhythm similarly would become a de facto gameplan for a lot of G/X ramp decks, of which there are many, especially alongside sweepers. Meanwhile, Worldfire doesn't look to me to immediately fit the gameplan of any R/x commander in the top 100 except maaaaybe Narset, Enlightened Master.

And then as someone who doesn't play Golos on principle, good riddance I guess? Wild to see them actually ban the most played Commander in Commander by a significant margin according to EDHREC (ol' Golo-mode was nearly 1,500 decks ahead of his closest competion).

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 days ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 days ago

My complaints about oracle are not cEDH based. Its a much worse card to encounter when not playing cEDH because its "technically" not a combo (even though it totally is) so I know a lot of people who play it in 75% commander. Its a much worse offender as you go to more casual magic because the expected counterplay being primarily counterspells see less play.

I am not saying that your argument is strictly speaking about cEDH but I haven't ever once seen Flash be cast but I have seen a ton of Thassa's Oracle cast. I don't believe I have ever seen a cast Oracle not resolve in part due to how a lot of the decks that draw the entire deck quickly often having a grip of like 3 free counterspells in hand when they do it. It can be just as toxic as the other variants but it costs less mana making it easier to do and limiting interaction options. I think all three can go and be banned but I don't suspect a request like that to ever take.
I mostly saw it in cEDH-wannabe pubstomp-ish decks on Cockatrice.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 days ago

My desire to play this format lessens every day.
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