September Ban List Update

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

Pretty sure the official rules are you have to wait one week before you start arguing that wishes should be legal if the announcement doesn't explicitly mention them.
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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
The good news is that now we can rehash the wish arguments in a fresh new light now that rule 11 is rule 10. Down with rule 10!
Haha, I swear I had typed this up before I read this.

IMO, Gifts Ungiven and Library of Alexandria should have been unbanned also. I'm glad Worldfire was unbanned. But does its effect make Commander better? Does the inclusion of its effect solve anything? Is its effect fun for everyone? ("Everyone", really?)

Those are the Socratic questions posed to deflect for Rule 10 but for some reason not a concern for %$#% like Worldfire. *sigh*
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
IMO, Gifts Ungiven and Library of Alexandria should have been unbanned also.
I will say I was pretty surprised that worldfire came off before gifts. There was so little pressure, afaik, to unban worldfire (besides people who somehow still haven't gotten bored of playing jhoira, does anyone care?), so it seems like mere inertia isn't enough to keep it on. Does the RC really still feel that gifts is problematic? I confess I don't see it. Horrible very bad nightmare scenarios that used to get brought up like gitaxias + that flashback reanimate spell sound kinda quaint compared to so many other busted things these days.

Still, we've had several bans and unbans recently, so it seems like the banlist has loosened up some of its old rusty joints. I think there's more hope for gifts than we've had in years prior, where the banlist was largely static. Not so sure about library but hey, a guy can dream.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Library is probably busted, but Gifts should come off, yeah. It's not like Entomb is causing major problems. Is it somehow toxic to cEDH?

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Gifts has been banned since before cEDH was much of a thing. I guarantee cEDH has nothing to do with its banning. My best guess why it's still on there is to send a message of "tutors bad". And I guess they don't wanna put demonic on there because it's kinda symbolic of the format in the way that sol ring is. For my money I think if they wanna make a sacrifice it should be Demonic Consultation. It's never really played outside of cEDH decks and it's way more explosive than gifts.

I think if library got printed today it wouldn't get banned. I don't think it does anything bad since everything it wants is usually the sorts of things fair decks want - it wants turns to drag on so it can get value, it sacrifices early tempo via colored mana, and it's pretty rarely going to do anything explosive. If it had never been banned I don't think anyone would hate it any more than they hate stuff like Mishra's Workshop which most people don't even think about. But it's very good for control decks and it's absurdly expensive so I think unbanning it would probably be pretty bad optics.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

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Post by Maluko » 2 years ago

I can't speak much about Library of Alexandria. I've never faced the card in EDH, although I've read the discussions behind its banning. It would be interesting to see if the card remains that powerful in today's EDH casual metagame. I have suspicions that it does.

Gifts Ungiven, on the other hand, is, I believe, representative of the kinds of cards that should be on the banned list. By itself, it doesn't win the game, so it may seem innocuous at first glance. But it absolutely warps deckbuilding. I was against the unbanning of Protean Hulk for the same reason: as soon as you add it to your deck and get a taste of its power, you will, consciously or not, start modifying your deck to abuse it. If you add Gifts to your deck, you will inevitably add cards like Eternal Witness, Unburial Rites, and other forms of recursion because Gifts is just that good and cool. Unless you're really self-restrained, and in my experience playing EDH, most people are not.

I've played with Gifts Ungiven before it was banned. And I loved the card, I loved the interaction, I loved the decision-process of planning the game ahead and the cards I needed to search to take advantage of the situation, and the mind games behind it. And that's exactly why I think the card should stay banned. Because it starts being the center of your attention, and that reduces deckbuilding innovation.

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Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

Some thoughts on cards mentioned:

Worldfire - This card never felt like it needed to be banned and I always thought of it as a signpost on the banlist. Firing it off and waiting to see who wins the topdeck wars is not fun (for most people), obviously, please don't do this. Setting up a win with it is expensive, and not particularly more devastating or easy than other big mana ways to win. Besides, if things like Obliterate are legal.... Some people may play it, but I expect it to be rare and the social contract already does a good job keeping things like this to the fringes of the format.

Recurring Nightmare - I love this card. It is very fun to play with. It is very easy to lie to yourself that you aren't abusing it and using it fairly. But you almost certainly are lying to yourself. While everyone should be playing graveyard hate, I don't think its prevalent enough to keep this in check. As much as I would love to dust mine off, it probably should remain where it is.

Library of Alexandria - Obviously powerful, probably not too powerful (I say probably, I'm not sure). If scarcity wasn't a problem, this card might have a chance at freedom, although I think it's ability to slot in every deck (yes, there are decks that don't want it) might make it to ubiquitous and problematic. But that's a moot point. While price/scarcity/barrier to entry is no longer used to put things on the banlist, it's definitely part of the reason this one will never come off. Without a reprint, which current policy says will never happen, there's no chance for this card to come off the list.

Gifts Ungiven - I think Protean Hulk might be the perfect comparison, but for the opposite point that Maluko was trying to make. I don't think Hulk has been a problem since it's unbanning (outside of cEDH stuff). People are using Hulk fairly, and casual games are not devolving into instant win combos with him. Gifts is very powerful, and would give a real advantage when cast, But I don't think it would warp casual games into instant win scenarios. I assume it would be a cEDH player, but nothing that meta couldn't handle. Gifts is powerful and dangerous, but I don't think it would be problematic if set loose on the format. I certainly could be wrong though.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Anything Gifts can do, Intuition does better. I have never seen a convincing argument against gifts that doesn't apply to intuition and yet the most expensive tempest card runs free. The only true difference is that gifts is <10 quid and intuition is 1/4 of next month's rent. I say Gifts should come off, both so the poors can play diet intuition and so I can play both.

Also, balls to the "warps decks, reduces innovation" argument. How many innumerable build-around cards warp all kinds of decks? Birthing Pod has its own freaking archetype on EDHrec and it's basically only 2 cards. Should Pod be banned? Is it reducing innovation? I don't believe anyone thinks so. I think that's just Magic's natural internal tension between build-around cards and generic good stuff. Don't crucify/villify the build-around cards, they require some degree of commitment at least. It's the goodstuff that deserves the pyre imho.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Maluko wrote:
2 years ago
it may seem innocuous at first glance. But it absolutely warps deckbuilding.
I can't see how it does. No-one wants to tutor to the graveyard unless they already have a fairly dedicated reanimator plan or some other powerful synergy nonsense. It's infamous for enabling silliness in every other format it's in. The only people I think who will pick it up will be those who know exactly what they want from it. There it's going to be a marginal improvement to upper-mid-tier Ux graveyard-y decks, which I doubt will warp anything.

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Post by Maluko » 2 years ago

Sharpened wrote:
2 years ago
Gifts Ungiven - I think Protean Hulk might be the perfect comparison, but for the opposite point that Maluko was trying to make. I don't think Hulk has been a problem since it's unbanning (outside of cEDH stuff). People are using Hulk fairly, and casual games are not devolving into instant win combos with him. Gifts is very powerful, and would give a real advantage when cast, But I don't think it would warp casual games into instant win scenarios. I assume it would be a cEDH player, but nothing that meta couldn't handle. Gifts is powerful and dangerous, but I don't think it would be problematic if set loose on the format. I certainly could be wrong though.
I'll concede to this argument. I haven't seen Hulk played ever since it became unbanned. My hypothesis is the format has evolved a lot since Hulk was first banned, and both the social contract and power creep have been keeping it in check. Hulk sucks if you're not abusing its ability; there are better and more fun cards today that can fill its slot otherwise.

I don't think the same applies to Gifts Ungiven. Its effect remains unique even after 17 years (how many general tutors does blue have?). And while Hulk has suffered from power creep in casual games (in competitive games the story is very different), I think Gifts Ungiven only got stronger with more options available. But I'll give Gifts the benefit of the doubt.
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Anything Gifts can do, Intuition does better. I have never seen a convincing argument against gifts that doesn't apply to intuition and yet the most expensive tempest card runs free. The only true difference is that gifts is <10 quid and intuition is 1/4 of next month's rent. I say Gifts should come off, both so the poors can play diet intuition and so I can play both.

Also, balls to the "warps decks, reduces innovation" argument. How many innumerable build-around cards warp all kinds of decks? Birthing Pod has its own freaking archetype on EDHrec and it's basically only 2 cards. Should Pod be banned? Is it reducing innovation? I don't believe anyone thinks so. I think that's just Magic's natural internal tension between build-around cards and generic good stuff. Don't crucify/villify the build-around cards, they require some degree of commitment at least. It's the goodstuff that deserves the pyre imho.
I agree with you on the price argument. But getting two cards is very different from getting one. Gifts is definitively more powerful than Intuition in that regard.

I agree that Birthing Pod leads to the same kind of deckbuilding warping. But Pod is more fragile and restrictive in what it can get. Pod can be destroyed by three colors and bounced by blue; Gifts can only get countered or discarded. Of the two, Gifts is definitively the strongest option.

Finally, I disagree with the argument against crucifying build-around cards. If they are warping the format or deckbuilding to a level that leads frequently to unexpected unfun games, they should totally be shot down. Paradox Engine is a perfect example of such a card. Sure, you can use it to just give vigilance to all your creatures. But according to the RC and comments from the players, that's not what the card was being used for.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Maluko wrote:
2 years ago
Sharpened wrote:
2 years ago
Gifts Ungiven - I think Protean Hulk might be the perfect comparison, but for the opposite point that Maluko was trying to make. I don't think Hulk has been a problem since it's unbanning (outside of cEDH stuff). People are using Hulk fairly, and casual games are not devolving into instant win combos with him. Gifts is very powerful, and would give a real advantage when cast, But I don't think it would warp casual games into instant win scenarios. I assume it would be a cEDH player, but nothing that meta couldn't handle. Gifts is powerful and dangerous, but I don't think it would be problematic if set loose on the format. I certainly could be wrong though.
I'll concede to this argument. I haven't seen Hulk played ever since it became unbanned. My hypothesis is the format has evolved a lot since Hulk was first banned, and both the social contract and power creep have been keeping it in check. Hulk sucks if you're not abusing its ability; there are better and more fun cards today that can fill its slot otherwise.

I don't think the same applies to Gifts Ungiven. Its effect remains unique even after 17 years (how many general tutors does blue have?). And while Hulk has suffered from power creep in casual games (in competitive games the story is very different), I think Gifts Ungiven only got stronger with more options available. But I'll give Gifts the benefit of the doubt.
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Anything Gifts can do, Intuition does better. I have never seen a convincing argument against gifts that doesn't apply to intuition and yet the most expensive tempest card runs free. The only true difference is that gifts is <10 quid and intuition is 1/4 of next month's rent. I say Gifts should come off, both so the poors can play diet intuition and so I can play both.

Also, balls to the "warps decks, reduces innovation" argument. How many innumerable build-around cards warp all kinds of decks? Birthing Pod has its own freaking archetype on EDHrec and it's basically only 2 cards. Should Pod be banned? Is it reducing innovation? I don't believe anyone thinks so. I think that's just Magic's natural internal tension between build-around cards and generic good stuff. Don't crucify/villify the build-around cards, they require some degree of commitment at least. It's the goodstuff that deserves the pyre imho.
I agree with you on the price argument. But getting two cards is very different from getting one. Gifts is definitively more powerful than Intuition in that regard.

I agree that Birthing Pod leads to the same kind of deckbuilding warping. But Pod is more fragile and restrictive in what it can get. Pod can be destroyed by three colors and bounced by blue; Gifts can only get countered or discarded. Of the two, Gifts is definitively the strongest option.

Finally, I disagree with the argument against crucifying build-around cards. If they are warping the format or deckbuilding to a level that leads frequently to unexpected unfun games, they should totally be shot down. Paradox Engine is a perfect example of such a card. Sure, you can use it to just give vigilance to all your creatures. But according to the RC and comments from the players, that's not what the card was being used for.
Hey now, cool it with the P. Engine comparisons. I'm still sore over that, public opinion be damned. Best 2 years of EDH in my lifetime, hands down.

Anyway, show me just the barest proof that intuition has been format-warping and I'll concede on Gifts. But you can't, because the evidence doesn't exist. It's not as warping as pod, and it isn't as busted as P. Engine, and it isn't as fast as intuition. There's no reason for the double standard banning. One extra card tacked on a legal effect is not a sufficient argument, especially when that card costs another full mana and almost everything busted you can do with gifts can already legally be done with intuition.

Also, "only blue can interact with it" is not an argument. It's the core design flaw that makes blue the de facto best color in Magic. There's no way to fix that at this point, the damage is done, has been done since 1993. Should we just ban instants and sorceries in entirety then? Only blue can really deal with them and according to you, that's not fun.

Edit: Rereading my response makes me realize that I was being unnecessarily testy about this stupid tangent. @Maluko, forgive my hotheadedness. I get carried away sometimes.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Maluko wrote:
2 years ago
Gifts can only get countered or discarded. Of the two, Gifts is definitively the strongest option.
Whatever you are setting up with Gifts can get ruined by gravehate though, which everyone has at instant speed.
Maluko wrote:
2 years ago
Finally, I disagree with the argument against crucifying build-around cards. If they are warping the format or deckbuilding to degenerate levels that lead to unexpected unfun games, they should totally be shot down.
The main problem with Paradox Engine was the opposite of what you describe. Pengine went off with the mana rocks and dorks everyone was already running, and that's what made it overdominant. It wasn't like everyone was slotting Pengine packages into their decks. Build-arounds require some level of commitment, which will naturally decrease their use compared to goodstuff cards of equal power, that can be slotted in without any other changes. Build-arounds tend to diversify the format, as some people opt to run them, and others don't, which ripples out to changes in other slots in their respective decks. Sometimes build-arounds can still be broken, but crucifying them seems counterproductive at best.

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Post by RxPhantom » 2 years ago

I'm actually surprised that so many known Commander personalities have come out against the ban, including the guys from the Command Zone and Commander's Quarters. This ban seems like a no-brainer slam dunk. The CZ's video was maddening. It comes from a point of view in which Golos was never problematic at all, and utilizes quite a few straw men to defend their position. Even before this I've felt like they've been out of touch with the greater Commander community, and I even get the impression that they think they are the Commander community.

Or maybe it's me. *shrugs*

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

As someone whom has played with Library of Alexandria, giving up a land slot for c and then stone raining yourself effectively to draw a card with a full hand, is totally a steep cost. I've long since argued for it's unbanning, because as Sheldon and Papa Funk said, it's banned due to "perceived barrier of entry" due to cost............which holds zero merit because freakin TIMETWISTER IS LEGAL. C'mon now. Either ban 'Twister to be consistent, or unban Library to be consistent. It's a multiplayer format, having access to Library isn't going to warp games. It is very fine.

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

@RxPhantom -- The Command Zone guys are very anti-banlist in general. Frankly, it often feels like they'd rather the format have no banlist at all. Would be nice if we had a world where their wish could be reality without wrecking freaking everything, but we do not, and they do not seem to recognize this at all. It was the same song and dance when Iona was banned, and Paradox Engine before it, and I think I vaguely recall them wanting Prophet of Kruphix off the banlist at some point as well. They seem to really have a hard time grasping that their experience and group is not everyone's experience or group. I'd also say the Goldfish crew is a mildly more reasonable (but still far too nuts) version of the "no banlist" thing, much as I enjoy watching them.
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
As someone whom has played with Library of Alexandria, giving up a land slot for c and then stone raining yourself effectively to draw a card with a full hand, is totally a steep cost. I've long since argued for it's unbanning, because as Sheldon and Papa Funk said, it's banned due to "perceived barrier of entry" due to cost............which holds zero merit because freakin TIMETWISTER IS LEGAL. C'mon now. Either ban 'Twister to be consistent, or unban Library to be consistent. It's a multiplayer format, having access to Library isn't going to warp games. It is very fine.
As someone who plays the card in Vintage, Library is bonkers powerful in control decks, and only probably not gamebreaking in EDH due to it being multiplayer. Still, there's considerable risk, and removing it probably would create a perceived barrier to entry, more than the unbanned Twister. There's a reason Library has often been referred to as the 10th piece of power, and a reason we've seen it listed as the Power 8 without Timetwister as well. In decks that want Twister's effect, it's far and away the strongest version, but decks often do not want it. Library, meanwhile, is utterly insane in virtually any context if you can keep it online. It's just the keeping it online part that's rough.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
As someone whom has played with Library of Alexandria, giving up a land slot for c and then stone raining yourself effectively to draw a card with a full hand, is totally a steep cost. I've long since argued for it's unbanning, because as Sheldon and Papa Funk said, it's banned due to "perceived barrier of entry" due to cost............which holds zero merit because freakin TIMETWISTER IS LEGAL. C'mon now. Either ban 'Twister to be consistent, or unban Library to be consistent. It's a multiplayer format, having access to Library isn't going to warp games. It is very fine.
The "perceived barrier to entry" wasn't just about cost.

You wouldn't build a blue deck without Mox Sapphire. You wouldn't build it without Ancestral Recall or Time Walk. You might build it without Timetwister. A card like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale was in the price range of the others when they were banned for the perceived barrier to entry, but was left off because it didn't fit the 'every deck that can play this card would want it' mindset.

Now, it's certainly understandable to argue that Library of Alexandria doesn't fit in that category. But I'm pretty sure that it was more about the cards that public opinion thought of as belonging there, than the ones that actually did.

I get the frustration about the inconsistency. But I also get why they made the choices that they did back then. And I don't see anything but negatives from changing things in either direction now, when it comes to Library and Timetwister.

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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
2 years ago
I'm actually surprised that so many known Commander personalities have come out against the ban, including the guys from the Command Zone and Commander's Quarters. This ban seems like a no-brainer slam dunk. The CZ's video was maddening. It comes from an option of thinking Golos was never problematic at all, and utilizes quite a few straw men to defend their position. Even before this I've felt like they've been out of touch with the greater Commander community, and I even get the impression that they think they are the Commander community.

Or maybe it's me. *shrugs*

I think it's worth being aware that there's large segments of the community that never seriously interact with one another. The Golos ban is highlighting that, because I'm seeing just as strong "why would the RC do this! Golos isn't a problem!" takes as I am ones like the ones here, where it's more of a "finally, they did it". People on MTG nexus aren't really representive of the greater community, and it's useful to take this as a moment to remember that.

In short, it's not that the command zone is out of touch with the community, they're just in touch with a different part of it than here.

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
2 years ago
I'm actually surprised that so many known Commander personalities have come out against the ban, including the guys from the Command Zone and Commander's Quarters. This ban seems like a no-brainer slam dunk. The CZ's video was maddening. It comes from an option of thinking Golos was never problematic at all, and utilizes quite a few straw men to defend their position. Even before this I've felt like they've been out of touch with the greater Commander community, and I even get the impression that they think they are the Commander community.

Or maybe it's me. *shrugs*

Why are you surprised? They're youtubers, and therefore trash.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
2 years ago
People on MTG nexus aren't really representative of the greater community, and it's useful to take this as a moment to remember that.
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Post by RxPhantom » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Wallycaine wrote:
2 years ago
People on MTG nexus aren't really representative of the greater community, and it's useful to take this as a moment to remember that.
You're right, we're way cooler.
This is the truth.
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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

I wonder how many heart attacks it would cause if the RC or CAG put out something like "We don't base decisions on EDHrec"
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Post by cryogen » 2 years ago

Friendly reminder not to make derogatory remarks about other people, even if they are public figures unlikely to grace these forums.
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Post by Lifeless » 2 years ago

Good riddance. The format loses nothing without Golos. There are plenty of 5 color commander options now, it's not like folks have to go back to Cromat.

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
2 years ago
I'm actually surprised that so many known Commander personalities have come out against the ban, including the guys from the Command Zone and Commander's Quarters. This ban seems like a no-brainer slam dunk. The CZ's video was maddening. It comes from an option of thinking Golos was never problematic at all, and utilizes quite a few straw men to defend their position. Even before this I've felt like they've been out of touch with the greater Commander community, and I even get the impression that they think they are the Commander community.

Or maybe it's me. *shrugs*
They brought up an argument like "we travel and play against random folks at their LGSs all the time" as far as not seeing any places where Golos was a problem... but they're still the visitors for a short time and don't really get to see the whole meta there, and there's a lot of excitement of novelty there that can overshadow other things. If I play with some random people and see a problem deck once that's hogging a lot of table time and there's a chance I might not see it again, then I might perceive the problem as an anomaly and not a pattern. But the folks that go there regularly and end up in a pod with "that deck" again for the 57th time will perceive it as a greater problem.

Also, JLK is the kind of player to play goodstuff, so another facet to the subjectivity of it. So yeah, I don't agree with his arguments, either.

Also, they brought up Norin the Wary as a possible commander with Worldfire (to float extra mana and cast the commander after it resolves) and I'm pretty disappointed they'd suggest that (and they're not the only ones).
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