September Ban List Update

[onering]

Am I missing something with Norin? Doesn't he exile himself when he attacks, thus being useless as a way to close out a game after World fire? Why not the one drop orc from Dragons of Tarkir?

[ISBPathfinder]

Am I missing something with Norin? Doesn't he exile himself when he attacks, thus being useless as a way to close out a game after World fire? Why not the one drop orc from Dragons of Tarkir?

You are correct that Norrin can't do combat damage without some sort of weird supporting card that I am not aware of existing. Zurgo Bellstriker could be an option as could any cheap commander. I mentioned earlier but Squee the Immortal could be really cool from the standpoint that he always costs three and can be cast from exile. Most cheap commanders you will have cast a few times by the time you could entertain casting Worldfire and commander in a turn so Squee has the advantage of still costing three at that point still. I have done a build for Squee and he also has the advantage of often running sac for mana based things like Skirk Prospector which set up for a big turn like that quite well.

[cryogen]

If probably opt for Ragavan since it has a relevant ability as well.

[Crazy Monkey]

I agree with the above, likely the best monocolor commanders for Worldfire are either Squee, the Immortal or Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. They probably cost around the same amount of mana on that turn.

I also expect red/white 'boardwipe tribal' with Teferi's Protection and Eerie Interlude, but those decks aren't new and at least worldfire generally speeds up their plan to end the game faster.

[DirkGently]

realistically there's probably no way you'd want to play it in ragavan though, since your odds of drawing it are low with very few reasonable tutors for it, and it's pretty antithetical to the more default ragavan plan. at least he does generate treasure, if you can connect a few times. Norin is obviously a lot worse.

I think the best all-in deck is probably any 2-drop BR commander. Ramp a bunch, tutor up worldfire, cast it (off Boseiju, Who Shelters All potentially), float mana, cast your commander, win. Super boring but probably pretty effective outside a pretty competitive meta.

Otherwise it slots into decks that already wanted the effect like Jhoira but that's probably about it. I guess you can always throw it into any red commander as a theoretical "I win" button so long as you can afford to cast your commander afterwards. I could see that being pretty annoying.

[RxPhantom]

I'm actually surprised that so many known Commander personalities have come out against the ban, including the guys from the Command Zone and Commander's Quarters. This ban seems like a no-brainer slam dunk. The CZ's video was maddening. It comes from an option of thinking Golos was never problematic at all, and utilizes quite a few straw men to defend their position. Even before this I've felt like they've been out of touch with the greater Commander community, and I even get the impression that they think they are the Commander community.

Or maybe it's me. *shrugs*

They brought up an argument like "we travel and play against random folks at their LGSs all the time" as far as not seeing any places where Golos was a problem... but they're still the visitors for a short time and don't really get to see the whole meta there, and there's a lot of excitement of novelty there that can overshadow other things. If I play with some random people and see a problem deck once that's hogging a lot of table time and there's a chance I might not see it again, then I might perceive the problem as an anomaly and not a pattern. But the folks that go there regularly and end up in a pod with "that deck" again for the 57th time will perceive it as a greater problem.

I'm with you. That argument didn't carry a lot of weight with me, either. They also said that they visited these LGS's prior to the pandemic, which would give them what, maybe six months to see all of these Golos decks that supposedly weren't a problem? I don't buy it. JLK also said something like "people are saying that Golos should be banned because he's the most popular commander, but that's not a reason to ban something," which is the flimsiest of straw men. I don't think simple popularity in and of itself was behind any serious call for a ban. Now, none of this to say that opposition to this ban is somehow wrong -it's a valid opinion- but the arguments they made didn't meaningfully address the concerns shared by the RC.

[pokken]

I don't think simple popularity in and of itself was behind any serious call for a ban

If you look at what's popular (like seriously popular, approaching 10-15% usage rate or the top 10 commanders) in commander it's almost always stuff that's borderline problematic

You can't look at the top 10 commanders and not go like oh yeah, problem, problem, problem, problem, tribal something cool, problem, problem

[BeneTleilax]

You can't look at the top 10 commanders and not go like oh yeah, problem, problem, problem, problem, tribal something cool, problem, problem

I mean, maybe you can't, but many of us don't. You're one of the most pro-banning users here.

[Ulka]

I mean Im by no means a pro banner and I see in the top 10 commanders I see 3 commanders I would love to see banned as commander back for.

[DirkGently]

I mean Im by no means a pro banner and I see in the top 10 commanders I see 3 commanders I would love to see banned as commander back for.

oh god, just say "would like to see banned".

If there are 3 commanders you'd want banned out of the top 10, I'd say that by definition you're a pro-banner.

[Mookie]

Looking at the current top 10 commanders of the past 2 years...

• Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - obnoxiously strong card, but not banworthy
• Kenrith, the Returned King - will likely be filling Golos's shoes as the new default 5C commander, but much easier to interact with.
• Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - totally fine (although I wouldn't complain if I never encountered another superfriends deck)
• Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - commander ninjutsu is a problematic design, but she's limited enough to not be broken.
• Alela, Artful Provocateur - I'm actually surprised to see she's so popular. Totally fine.
• Muldrotha, the Gravetide - a strong and durdley value engine, generally fine
• The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.
• Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - possibly broken, but also fairly niche.
• Yarok, the Desecrated - see Muldrotha
• Chulane, Teller of Tales - see Korvold.

I do think a lot of these commanders are mistakes, and if this were a digital game I'd be in favor of a nerf for many of them. However, I don't think any of them are currently banworthy. Kenrith and Sisay would be on my personal watchlist, but I'll also note that I'm not a fan of 4/5C decks in general - I think the format is in a healthier place when decks actually have to make concessions with respect to the color pie, instead of just playing whatever the best cards are.

[BounceBurnBuff]

Looking at the current top 10 commanders of the past 2 years...

• Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - obnoxiously strong card, but not banworthy
• Kenrith, the Returned King - will likely be filling Golos's shoes as the new default 5C commander, but much easier to interact with.
• Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - totally fine (although I wouldn't complain if I never encountered another superfriends deck)
• Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - commander ninjutsu is a problematic design, but she's limited enough to not be broken.
• Alela, Artful Provocateur - I'm actually surprised to see she's so popular. Totally fine.
• Muldrotha, the Gravetide - a strong and durdley value engine, generally fine
• The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.
• Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - possibly broken, but also fairly niche.
• Yarok, the Desecrated - see Muldrotha
• Chulane, Teller of Tales - see Korvold.

I do think a lot of these commanders are mistakes, and if this were a digital game I'd be in favor of a nerf for many of them. However, I don't think any of them are currently banworthy. Kenrith and Sisay would be on my personal watchlist, but I'll also note that I'm not a fan of 4/5C decks in general - I think the format is in a healthier place when decks actually have to make concessions with respect to the color pie, instead of just playing whatever the best cards are.

Pretty much agree with this, although I'd still happily see the back of Korvold for doing to Jund what Golos did to 5c. Chulane has been mostly self-policed out of where he isn't welcome in my experience, but Korvold still pervades.

[Wallycaine]

Looking at the current top 10 commanders of the past 2 years...

• Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - obnoxiously strong card, but not banworthy
• Kenrith, the Returned King - will likely be filling Golos's shoes as the new default 5C commander, but much easier to interact with.
• Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - totally fine (although I wouldn't complain if I never encountered another superfriends deck)
• Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - commander ninjutsu is a problematic design, but she's limited enough to not be broken.
• Alela, Artful Provocateur - I'm actually surprised to see she's so popular. Totally fine.
• Muldrotha, the Gravetide - a strong and durdley value engine, generally fine
• The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.
• Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - possibly broken, but also fairly niche.
• Yarok, the Desecrated - see Muldrotha
• Chulane, Teller of Tales - see Korvold.

I do think a lot of these commanders are mistakes, and if this were a digital game I'd be in favor of a nerf for many of them. However, I don't think any of them are currently banworthy. Kenrith and Sisay would be on my personal watchlist, but I'll also note that I'm not a fan of 4/5C decks in general - I think the format is in a healthier place when decks actually have to make concessions with respect to the color pie, instead of just playing whatever the best cards are.

Pretty much agree with this, although I'd still happily see the back of Korvold for doing to Jund what Golos did to 5c. Chulane has been mostly self-policed out of where he isn't welcome in my experience, but Korvold still pervades.

I think the big difference between the two is that Korvold is the strongest option for a particular *strategy* in Jund, and makes that strategy the strongest pick for Jund. But he's only pushing out commanders that want to run an aristocrats style sacrifice deck, which still leaves room to run other Jund commanders if you want to make, say, Jund Enchantress or Dragon Tribal. On the other hand, Golos was almost always a strict upgrade if you weren't relying on your commander's abilities to make your deck run.

[Magiqmaster]

I agree with the above, likely the best monocolor commanders for Worldfire are either Squee, the Immortal or Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. They probably cost around the same amount of mana on that turn.

I also expect red/white 'boardwipe tribal' with Teferi's Protection and Eerie Interlude, but those decks aren't new and at least worldfire generally speeds up their plan to end the game faster.

Another option is to have a suspended creature such as Gargadon about to ETB, prior to casting Worldfire. Not that hard to setup if the deck is built accordingly.

[lyonhaert]

The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.

In all the arguments against Ur-Dragon I've seen, dragon tribal was not one of the issues.

[BeneTleilax]

In all the arguments against Ur-Dragon I've seen, dragon tribal was not one of the issues.

What are people doing with the Ur-Dragon that isn't dragon tribal?

[pokken]

Looking at the current top 10 commanders of the past 2 years...

• Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - obnoxiously strong card, but not banworthy
• Kenrith, the Returned King - will likely be filling Golos's shoes as the new default 5C commander, but much easier to interact with.
• Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - totally fine (although I wouldn't complain if I never encountered another superfriends deck)
• Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - commander ninjutsu is a problematic design, but she's limited enough to not be broken.
• Alela, Artful Provocateur - I'm actually surprised to see she's so popular. Totally fine.
• Muldrotha, the Gravetide - a strong and durdley value engine, generally fine
• The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.
• Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - possibly broken, but also fairly niche.
• Yarok, the Desecrated - see Muldrotha
• Chulane, Teller of Tales - see Korvold.

I do think a lot of these commanders are mistakes, and if this were a digital game I'd be in favor of a nerf for many of them. However, I don't think any of them are currently banworthy. Kenrith and Sisay would be on my personal watchlist, but I'll also note that I'm not a fan of 4/5C decks in general - I think the format is in a healthier place when decks actually have to make concessions with respect to the color pie, instead of just playing whatever the best cards are.

If you saw my list I did note 'fine tribal commander' as one of the top ten

Yuriko is probably the most busted ass one on that list. One of the most obnoxious decks I've ever encountered. They literally cast their commander every single turn for UB and there's nothing generally applicable that can stop it. It may be beatable but horrendous design.

The point is not that all these guys should be banned but that you can see that - for the most part - commanders that are very popular are pushing the bleeding problematic edge of the combination of extreme power and broad appeal.

Popularity correlates with problematic at a very high rate - see. Sylvan Primordial

---------

and Problematic is not exactly the same as Powerful, it's a combination of Contextual Power and Broad Appeal. --edit: And Creates Lame Experiences

[ISBPathfinder]

Looking at the current top 10 commanders of the past 2 years...

• Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - obnoxiously strong card, but not banworthy
• Kenrith, the Returned King - will likely be filling Golos's shoes as the new default 5C commander, but much easier to interact with.
• Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - totally fine (although I wouldn't complain if I never encountered another superfriends deck)
• Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - commander ninjutsu is a problematic design, but she's limited enough to not be broken.
• Alela, Artful Provocateur - I'm actually surprised to see she's so popular. Totally fine.
• Muldrotha, the Gravetide - a strong and durdley value engine, generally fine
• The Ur-Dragon - if you have a complaint about dragon tribal, I think you're missing the point of EDH.
• Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - possibly broken, but also fairly niche.
• Yarok, the Desecrated - see Muldrotha
• Chulane, Teller of Tales - see Korvold.

I do think a lot of these commanders are mistakes, and if this were a digital game I'd be in favor of a nerf for many of them. However, I don't think any of them are currently banworthy. Kenrith and Sisay would be on my personal watchlist, but I'll also note that I'm not a fan of 4/5C decks in general - I think the format is in a healthier place when decks actually have to make concessions with respect to the color pie, instead of just playing whatever the best cards are.

I was going to argue more about this list and how acceptable they are but its going to be something heavily opinionated rather than having any sort of facts to it. Its really annoying to me as to how many of those commanders are green ramp and value style of commanders (ok its like 4-6 of them would be considered that).

EDIT: I am for banning about 1/3rd of those listed lol. There are a lot of crazy busted UG based commanders in the last few years that I would love to just be completely gone.

[lyonhaert]

In all the arguments against Ur-Dragon I've seen, dragon tribal was not one of the issues.

What are people doing with the Ur-Dragon that isn't dragon tribal?

I know of one non-dragon with Ur-Dragon at the helm, and it's materpillar's changeling combo on these forums. What I meant is people bring up things like Eminence or are just generically anti-5c - stuff like that - but dragon tribal hasn't come up as a problem.

[BeneTleilax]

I know of one non-dragon with Ur-Dragon at the helm, and it's materpillar's changeling combo on these forums. What I meant is people bring up things like Eminence or are just generically anti-5c - stuff like that - but dragon tribal hasn't come up as a problem.

He's probably the least problematic Eminence general, and is too thematically-focused to slip into the 5c goodstuff. Besides, if someone wanted 5c dragons previously, they just ran Scion. Ur-Dragon, in my experience, is much less combo-prone than his Scion, so him taking over the archetype is probably for the best.

[illakunsaa]

If you look at what's popular (like seriously popular, approaching 10-15% usage rate or the top 10 commanders) in commander it's almost always stuff that's borderline problematic

According to edhrec golos was 1.2% of all decks. Korvold is 0.97%

[lyonhaert]

I know of one non-dragon with Ur-Dragon at the helm, and it's materpillar's changeling combo on these forums. What I meant is people bring up things like Eminence or are just generically anti-5c - stuff like that - but dragon tribal hasn't come up as a problem.

He's probably the least problematic Eminence general, and is too thematically-focused to slip into the 5c goodstuff. Besides, if someone wanted 5c dragons previously, they just ran Scion. Ur-Dragon, in my experience, is much less combo-prone than his Scion, so him taking over the archetype is probably for the best.

Yeah, I can dig 5c dragons aggro over 5c dragons combo. Friend of mine has an Ur-Dragon deck - strong but not broken. I do enjoy going up against it since it's challenging, just not with every deck I have.

I also find it amusing that somebody had noted that Golos was still a more optimal 5c commander for dragons than Ur-Dragon. Since I still have a copy of Golos, I might have my friend try to run them at the helm just to see how differently it goes.

[Myllior]

I also find it amusing that somebody had noted that Golos was still a more optimal 5c commander for dragons than Ur-Dragon.

Yeah. My mate used to run a Scion of the Ur-Dragon combo deck which, after realising our meta doesn't enjoy linear combos, he changed to Golos. I can't draw a straight up comparison between Golos and The Ur-Dragon from that gameplay (obviously), but from reasoning you can see that Golos is much easier to get online and to re-cast if necessary, which brings up the floor on the deck's performance significantly. Considering the ceiling on The Ur-Dragon is one free permanent into play on attack, compared to up to three cards (although not free) with Golos, you'll also get smoother top end performance, albeit likely to be less explosive. So yeah, the literal progenitor of all dragonkind isn't as good as dragon tribal commander as Sad Robot Mark II.

This happened with plenty of other deck themes too. The only case I saw where Golos was being run despite being an inferior commander was in Shrines decks, where Sisay, Weatherlight Captain reigns supreme. However, she's already a very powerful commander who was tailor-made for Shrines, so Golos being beat there doesn't do anything to help his case.

[lyonhaert]

This happened with plenty of other deck themes too. The only case I saw where Golos was being run despite being an inferior commander was in Shrines decks, where Sisay, Weatherlight Captain reigns supreme. However, she's already a very powerful commander who was tailor-made for Shrines, so Golos being beat there doesn't do anything to help his case.

A saturation vs priority issue there, surely. Only 11 actual shrines, but having a priority of getting them into play - Golos's variance is too high for that.

[pokken]

If you look at what's popular (like seriously popular, approaching 10-15% usage rate or the top 10 commanders) in commander it's almost always stuff that's borderline problematic

According to edhrec golos was 1.2% of all decks. Korvold is 0.97%

...and note the distinction between "approaching 10-15% usage rate" and "or the top 10 commanders"

Typically cards do not get on the radar for banning because of their usage in the 99 until they're around 10% prevalence (Paradox engine being a good example).

Commanders don't have that high of a threshold because a commander is in 100% of the games it's played in, vs. cards in the 99 probably 1/5 or less.

That said, Golos was actually *as a card* in close to 10% of 5 color decks which is pretty hilarious