[Announcement] Ban List Update

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
Kemev wrote:
4 years ago
Kinda. The biggest problem with Prophet was that you effectively got to take a turn on each of your opponents turns, which could set you up to Archenemy the table (or, if not win, at least hog up all the play time until your friends murdered you).
Thanks for the explanations. I was more wondering what it is that pushed Prophet of Kruphix onto the banlist while the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Seedborn Muse combo is still free? Although I guess I answered myself already; it's the combination of the two effects on one card that pushes it over the edge, since it can never be played in a way that isn't readily abusable. Cheers again.
My experience with Prophet was that once it hit the field, games became centralized around killing, protecting, cloning, and reanimating it, with any players that managed to hold on to theirs for multiple turns quickly running away with the game. Even if your deck isn't built around it, cloning a Prophet will usually provide a substantial advantage - almost every deck can benefit from either the extra mana or the flash.

On the other hand, if two players have a Teferi, they sort of cancel out so that neither player gets access to the flash, so cloning it isn't nearly as attractive. Similarly, Seedborn Muse is a powerful effect when built around, but there are many decks that don't play a bunch of instants or mana sinks, so it is possible that a player may not have anything to do with the extra untaps.


Going back to the original banlist update... I don't really have any complaints. I didn't encounter a lot of Iona or Paradox Engine. Looking at the philosophy document through the lens of 'we want to promote fun over balance', getting rid of Iona makes a lot of sense - it may not be a particularly widely played or powerful card, but it's definitely not fun to play against. Similarly, Painter's Servant may enable a lot of broken things (such as griefing with Ugin / All is Dust), but it also allows for a lot of fun and interesting interactions.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I can't wait to read the salt when every casual player comes over here to complain about that guy that sticks Servant and -2s Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Gonna enjoy being a fly on the wall for that one...

Speaking to the philosophy doc, I just can't fathom how servant is a reasonable unban.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

Maybe it's a little off topic, but seeing people discussing about flash... is this card really being used?
I mean yeah flash-hulk on turn 2 is devastating, but... what else? If you don't draw your flash and your hulk in the first, let's say 4 turns, what can that card do? Will sit in your hand uselessly for the whole game?

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Post by Jivanmukta » 4 years ago

Flash is very popular in cEDH, and generally never used in normal EDH.
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

I haven't played competitive commander in a very long time but paradox engine seemed busted.

Iona banned and painter's servant being unbanned seemed weird but I guess we'll see how it goes

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Jivanmukta wrote:
4 years ago
Flash is very popular in cEDH, and generally never used in normal EDH.
I play it from time to time. Mostly as another copy of Scout's Warning.

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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

Jivanmukta wrote:
4 years ago
Flash is very popular in cEDH, and generally never used in normal EDH.
I play it in Lord of Tresserhorn. The deck revolves around creatures' death triggers. The coolest play thus far has been using Flash put out and sac Keiga, the Tide Star, and stealing a Blightsteel Colossus that was heading straight for me.*

*I think I've shared this story elsewhere on this site or Sally. I apologize for the repetition.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

So far, the worst I've heard theorized for Painter's Servant has been the Grindstone combo, and I've seen a bunch of people joke that they're looking forward to jamming that in decks... to which I have to say that Helm of Obedience with Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace has been in the format for a long time, is considerably stronger, and each individual card is actually useful outside of the combo. Somehow, I am not concerned.

Also, if you're looking for an effect that essentially says one player loses the game each turn cycle, you could always build 5 color and go with Door to nothingness.

The second biggest thing I hear is Painter's Servant accidentally turning Ugin or All is Dust into a full boardwipe, hitting lands too. This remains to be seen how problematic it is. Technically, Mycosynth Lattice and Enchanted Evening do the same thing with a much larger number of boardwipes, but neither of those cards really see widespread use outside of niche combos and interactions. It remains to be seen how often we actually run into Painter's Servant in that regard.

The final major use is for color-specific Commanders: Notably Teysa, Orzhov Scion, but theoretically Oona, Queen of the Fae, Llawan, Cephalid Empress, etc. While those uses certaily power up specific commanders, this hardly seems to be abhorently backbreaking, especially as the worst (enabling Teysa to have infinite sac fodder) is already enabled by Darkest Hour already. While redundancy is good, we're not breaking new ground.
Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks for the explanations. I was more wondering what it is that pushed Prophet of Kruphix onto the banlist while the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Seedborn Muse combo is still free? Although I guess I answered myself already; it's the combination of the two effects on one card that pushes it over the edge, since it can never be played in a way that isn't readily abusable. Cheers again.
Seedborn Muse is an exceptionally powerful card already, and prior to prophet was one that I willingly chose not to run. During prophet's existence I had eased up on that, but it has now come back into effect. Combination with Teferi, or with Winding Canyons or Alchemist's Refuge remains highly powerful. However, Prophet encapsulated both abilities into a single card, which made it all the more terrifying, especially since its own ability in a way helped protect it, as you could flash out a Clone effect in response to any sort of removal.

I never ran Prophet myself, yet all of my decks felt its loss when banned, especially my mono-black Chainer, Dementia Master deck. All I can say towards the banning of prophet is that any game in which Prophet was played was immediately centered around Killing prophet, Stealing prophet, Reanimating prophet, or Protecting prophet.

To give an idea, in a 4 player game in which I was playing Chainer, a full three rounds of play saw each of the other players attempt to wrath, remove, or counter my plays of Chainer or reanimating prophet or clones, on each of their turns. That was me dodging and playing around 5 wrath effects, and a combination of 6 single target removal spells aimed at Chainer or prophet, or additional Graveyard hate, through the use of sacrifice outlets, reanimation, and Winding Canyons for three full rounds, until everyone was out of removal, which then allowed me to reanimate anything and everything and end the game.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Liar, you drafted her in my cube. But yeah, that mirrors my own use with her in my Derevi deck which could win though being archenemy thanks to multiple Prophets in play.
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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

That's true... but that doesn't count towards the decks I've run... also, that was already after Prophet was banned. And I've gotten to run Recurring Nightmare in your cube too, so not the best parallel... =P

I like how I am now essentially de-facto banned from playing a banned card that you've allowed into your cube...

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