The collectible game vs the playable game

How do you view the collectible vs playable aspect of the game?

Pure player - all proxies! real cards are all banned!
2
4%
Player - proxies are fine but real cards are nicer
15
31%
Soft Player - some proxies are ok, but within certain bounds/don't overdo it
16
33%
Neutral - prefer no proxies but tolerate some, collection values shouldn't have undue impact on relative deck strength
9
19%
Soft Collector - the collectable game is secondary to the playable game, but it's still fun and should softly dictate power levels
2
4%
Collector - the collectable game is the equally-fun metagame around the playable game and should strongly dictate power levels
4
8%
Pure collector - the playable game is incidental
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 48

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

People are always talking about the reserved list, and whenever it comes up, a topic that feels like it's always lurking on the periphery is the conflicts between magic the strategy game and magic the collectible game. So I wanted to have a discussion about that conceptually, somewhat removed from the context of specific cards and the reserved list.

I think it's probably easiest to draw a continuum from one end - which I'll call the "players" - and the other end - which I'll call the "collectors". The perspective furthest on the players side would prefer the game to be exclusively via proxies, where there are absolutely zero limitations by cost to anyone. On the furthest collectors side, the perspective would be that whatever play value the cards have is incidental, and the primary game is in the economy (I don't think anyone on this forum holds this position and probably only like 20 people anywhere tbh). A more reasonable position would be that the collectors see the collectable side of the game as a metagame around the playable game.

So I can kinda see both sides - which I think functionally puts me closer towards the "collectors" side of the spectrum relative to most of the internet, which tend to be mostly "players" focused. But here's how I'd kinda characterize both arguments.

The "players" want essentially a pure game where economic advantages outside of the game have no bearing on the outcome of the game. It feels lame to lose simply because the other player out-moneyed you, and the game can definitely get very expensive on the competitive end, enough so to force a lot of people out. The joy of the game is in the game, and the collection aspect only hinders it.

The "collectors" see the collectible game isn't separate from the playable part of the game, but is a sort of metagame around it. Much like how, in a pvp rpg, you can win by some combination of skill within the game, or by coming better prepared with gear or whatever. They enjoy either spending lots of money to bolster their stock, or trying to slowly improve their collection through skillful trading and market prediction. They feel this skill (or at least effort) should confer an advantage within the playable game, much like someone who has spent a thousand hours grinding baal runs to get to level 99 should have a few extra skill points worth of advantage over those peasant level 95s (diablo 2 anyone?).

As someone who build pure-proxy decks through college, I definitely sympathize pretty heavily with the players and I think that's my default position, but I do have some reservations. I'm gonna lay them out now.

-I think many players, especially new players, are oftentimes constrained in a good way by a limited collection. A lot of people, if they had access to every card, would immediately build the most powerful cEDH deck available. That is, after all, the default play style in the vast majority of games. Hopefully over time, as they acquire more cards and their collection becomes a looser restriction, they'll also gain the maturity to realize that it's best not to break the format, or if they prefer cEDH they'll find likeminded players instead of pubstomping.

-Commander is not a competitive format. Nobody "needs" dual lands in order to play - definitely not on a casual level, and frankly even in a cEDH environment the advantage of ABU duals is pretty miniscule. That's not to say that building a viable cEDH deck isn't expensive, but that's a pretty rare environment anyway, and I've seen precon decks win games enough to know that it doesn't cost much to make a viable deck in commander. The multiplayer balancing makes it a much more stable format than 1v1 where there is no advantage to weakness.

-I do think it can be fun to collect the cards, and a big part of why it's fun is that it ultimately helps you win in the playable game. Of course, much like a lot of other games these days, the fact that people can just dump a bunch of money into it as a substitute for the tedious business of building a collection via trading cheapens the experience, but there's also satisfaction to be had in fighting uphill monetarily. Back when I was the one with a pile of draft chaff and my friends had competitive standard decks, I didn't win often, but when I did it felt sweeeeet. Ultimately I think viewing the game through an RPG lens is kind of doomed to failure, but I do get the allure of "leveling up" through trading, lucky pulls, etc. Cracking a sweet rare means a lot more when it's going to actually improve your deck than when it's just going to replace the proxy you were already using.

-This is a slightly flimsy argument, but WotC's gotta be fed. Pure proxies don't really help keep the game afloat. That said, I'm not really in love with WotC at the moment so I'm not gonna stick up for them very hard.

-I do think there is cultural value in the existence of extremely rare cards. I remember when I was first getting into the game, and hearing about near-mythical relics like black lotus and time walk. And when I saw power 9 under several layers of glass at an LGS, it was like going to the British Museum and seeing the Rosetta stone. Cards that were printed not long after I was born, whose power was legendary. I dunno, I think that's kind of a rad part of the game. Obviously the fact that I *cough* own all the most powerful cards (in commander) creates some incentives for me to particularly appreciate them, but I still think the existence of cards I don't own, like the non-time-twister power 9 is overall a significant benefit to the game just in terms of creating a sort of mythology. I always enjoy telling friends who ask about magic how pricey some of the cards can get. When they hear a Black Lotus is worth - I don't even know anymore, 10K+ for unlimited, 50K+ for AB? - I love seeing their eyes bug out in disbelief. Most people hear about how some pokemon card is worth like $200 and think that's absurd, so I won't deny taking some glee in telling them about the REAL wonders of the ancient (card gaming) world.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. Thoughts?
Last edited by DirkGently 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

I think the "if everyone had access to the full card pool, the social contract would evaporate" argument comes off as an indictment against Magic itself! the idea that the game only remains cooperative cos of scarcity is too cynical a point for a card game to be in its crosshairs. maybe you just play too hard and the other players think they need an advantage?

I'm happy for anyone to proxy whatever they need.. I have a bunch of reserved list stuff and a few triple digit cards but it's not like I bought them at peak prices and I think most people who have a deep collection will be forthcoming about the times they got lucky on prices. Lion's Eye Diamond is the classic example of a bulk card ballooning beyond belief and no-one who started in SoM ever got the chance to buy a playset for £1. plus there's a thousand weird cards that came out before MMQ that basically no-one has, and most of them dilute the game's power level by being weird and hard to activate so I'd *love* to see people proxy 'em and experiment.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

folding_music wrote:
2 years ago
I think the "if everyone had access to the full card pool, the social contract would evaporate" argument comes off as an indictment against Magic itself! the idea that the game only remains cooperative cos of scarcity is too cynical a point for a card game to be in its crosshairs. maybe you just play too hard and the other players think they need an advantage?
I don't think it would evaporate, but I think it would be a lot harder to keep in place in public environments. If you're a new magic player who's used to standard, or hearthstone, or whatever other game, you're probably default assuming that building the deck is very much part of the competition, and therefore that you should try as hard to win in deckbuilding as well as deckplaying. I think if I took a poll where I asked commander players at my LGS "Do you intentionally weaken your decks" I think I'd get a significant majority of "no"s. I just don't hear most people talking about power limitations as something they think about. Mostly they get excited about anything they can do to make their decks stronger.

And of course once a sufficient number of people are building cEDH-tier decks, it becomes pretty unfun to play anything casual against them.

My personal impact is quite minimal, the places I play have a lot of people and I bounce from location to location.
Perm Decks
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

While I personally never play with proxies, I have absolutely no issue with others using as many as they like. When there are differences in a playgroup in relation to how long people have been into the game and various income levels, proxies can be a fine equalizer. My playgroup has a number of people like myself who have been into the game for 20+ years and have acquired a number of now expensive cards, and then a few people who have only been into the game for a few years.

I was lucky enough to acquire a number of pricier cards like ABU dual lands back when they were in the $15 - $50 dollar range, and I use them in most decks. They are not "necessary" but I own them so I going to use them, and if another person who was not so lucky doesn't want to fork out the cash but wants the experience of utilizing them then by all means that person can proxy. There is nothing on the line here, its ultimately a game to hang out and have fun with friends,, so if it makes for a more enjoyable play experience then it is fine by me.

For my own personal enjoyment, I like using the real cards for whatever reason, so I don't proxy. I don't begrudge anyone else for doing so though.

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

I think I'm somewhere in between your categories of "Player" and "Pure Player." Real cards, IMHO, aren't inherently better than proxies. Real cards are bling. I have something of an emotional attachment to the cards, and the aesthetics of real Magic cards, and I'll use real cards if I can because I like them, similar to my appreciation for, say, old-border foils, but that's purely a personal choice. I don't think any of the reasons to restrict proxies hold water. And speaking as someone who has introduced people to Commander, I regularly start the spiel with talking about the weird, fun, laid-back nonsense you can pull, and offering to lend people decks so they can get a feel for what they like to play before building their own. I find that this is generally more than sufficient to set expectations at a reasonable level. I also like to use the fact that the guy who owns a bunch of absurdly expensive RL cards is telling people to proxy as a way to interfere with the financially-based arguments against them.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Proxies accelerate the arms race, they do not create it. I've seen slow arms races, when I was in high school, and we would all come back from our summer jobs and splash on a Craterhoof or a Coffers. I've seen slower arms races when I was in college, and people built out their collections and angled for an edge. Proxies just let you see the end of it quicker. Maybe you decide that you all like this, and just become a cEDH league (I've never seen a cEDH group that didn't proxy heavily). Maybe you don't, and all adopt some ground rules, founded in experience now, rather than aspiration or worry. In the latter case, no-one spent money and the attachment born of slow saving on a card that would then be banned. When Dirk says "they'll also gain the maturity to realize that it's best not to break the format" in the course of slow acquisition, I think he only means that sometimes, in a slow arms race, players learn to foresee its end. I counter: why try to foresee the end of the arms race, when you can experience it at no more than the cost of ink? Surely whatever insights may be gained from prediction cannot be greater than those gained by experience.

My caveats are that players should ask if proxies are ok before joining a game, and that players should accept a fair trade of any card they're proxying. The former because newer players can come from very different places on their own experience, and the onus remains on the player proxying to start the conversation about what they are proxying and why. Then we can talk desired power level. The latter because I think trading is an essential part of the metagame, in a way that buying singles just isn't. To me, proxying to maintain your wallet is thrifty, but proxying to maintain your trade binder is miserly.

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Post by Gamazson » 2 years ago

My rules on proxies are:

-Do not proxy just to push your deck to CEDH levels. For example, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault are a part of the game, but I don't want to see them proxy'd into in every deck. If you only own one of each, pick the deck that deserves these cards the most.
- Rules text must be complete and legible. Exact wording often matters, and not every card is as easy to memorize as Sol Ring.

And though I don't consider it to be a rule, I frown upon proxying the OG dual lands. They are a bit of a cop out. While nice to have and certainly worth bragging points, no commander deck needs them. It is possible to build a functional mana base on the cheap. Sometimes that will require deckbuilding considerations and concessions, but I see that as fundamental to the game.

Other more easily acquired lands I don't have an issue with. Especially if it is a new player with a pre-con.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
When Dirk says "they'll also gain the maturity to realize that it's best not to break the format" in the course of slow acquisition, I think he only means that sometimes, in a slow arms race, players learn to foresee its end. I counter: why try to foresee the end of the arms race, when you can experience it at no more than the cost of ink? Surely whatever insights may be gained from prediction cannot be greater than those gained by experience.
Well...

1) The more time spent on the game, the more interest you have in preserving the fun. If you start playing commander month 1, proxy a cEDH by month 2, and get bored on month 3, you'll probably just move on to another game.

2) I think it's a big overgeneralization to think that an arms race is the only reason someone would choose to start limiting their power level. I've never been involved in an arms race, personally. I just never really thought the ways linear combo decks won was very interesting, and through experimentation eventually came to realizations about what I liked and didn't like power-level wise, and how to consider those elements in a more conscious way.

3) Probably most importantly, lord do I hate it when people make arguments from the assumption that everyone is playing in stable playgroups with a small number of people. In a public environment, some players have matured enough to abstain from certain elements of the game, but there's a constant influx of newer players who lack that maturity, and cEDH-adjacent players who have a different goal, and so on. An arms race can't really end because there's always new people being added that haven't gotten bored of it, or who only know the high-powered game and don't have any reason to return to a lower-powered meta because they've never experienced it, etc. It's nowhere near as simple as "okay, we all tried cEDH for a week, decided it was boring, and now we all gained +4 maturity and will be self-limiting our deck power now." On top of which, obviously people are going to have a variety of opinions on whether or not proxies are kosher or not in a public environment, so even as a solo project to plumb the depths of cEDH it's pretty fraught, especially since none of the other players will be on board and I imagine won't appreciate getting pulverized by a cEDH netdeck for your educational instruction.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
1) The more time spent on the game, the more interest you have in preserving the fun. If you start playing commander month 1, proxy a cEDH by month 2, and get bored on month 3, you'll probably just move on to another game.
If you never enjoyed any step in that process, then it's probably for the best that you realize that quickly, and at minimal cost. If you did, odds are you'll try to recreate the power level you enjoyed, and learn to control the power of your decks. That was my experience.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
2) I think it's a big overgeneralization to think that an arms race is the only reason someone would choose to start limiting their power level. I've never been involved in an arms race, personally. I just never really thought the ways linear combo decks won was very interesting, and through experimentation eventually came to realizations about what I liked and didn't like power-level wise, and how to consider those elements in a more conscious way.
I agree, and noted in my earlier post that players often foresee the end of an escalation in power without ever reaching it. If you instead mean to say that you have always been some special sage of the format and it just needs to be protected from us noobs who don't know what's best for ourselves, then I have a lot less sympathy for your arguments. So I'm going to assume that you're describing the same nigh-universal learning process I am, and not positioning yourself as uniquely and perpetually enlightened.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
3) Probably most importantly, lord do I hate it when people make arguments from the assumption that everyone is playing in stable playgroups with a small number of people.
Lord do I hate it when someone ignores the second paragraph of my post. I explicitly mention that players, especially newcomers to a group or meta, should ask if their proxies are ok, as a means of prompting a discussion of power level, because they might be coming from a different experience. I've seen an arms race come to its conclusion, with some players peeling off to play cEDH, and the rest deciding against fast, low-piece-count combo, in a store with a few semiregulars, no consistent groups and a high degree of turnover. So I think my observations are not applicable only to set playgroups. You also seem to assume that proxy-users are uniquely prone to pubstomping, when I have found the opposite. All the proxying players I've seen tend to take the strong proxies out of their decks when asked, or just switch decks, but I've seen a couple players who own the cards act as if they have bought the right to pubstomp the rest of us.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I hate having any proxies at all in my decks. I own most everything and I generally am fine with people proxying anything they own or in cases where they want to temporarily test something. I try to have duplicate copies of the cards so I don't have to proxy because I HATE PROXIES. I don't mind if someone proxies something they are using in more than one deck though as a playset in this format is one copy. I just don't like looking at proxies lol.

I think I have a single badlands proxy currently but I do own a copy. I just want to use it in like three places currently but only own a single copy. I might get lazy at some point and buy another lol.
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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 2 years ago

I'm really flexible on this and my group is too. I think we'd all be annoyed if someone showed up with a fully proxied deck and made no effort to ever get any of the cards if they decided to keep the deck around long term. But even in this case we'd much rather have someone play with us and slowly (if ever) scrape together real cards than not be able to play. We all recognize the absurdity of trying to stay current and battle price speculation, particularly over the last few years.

Personally I don't like to use proxies in my decks unless they are very nice quality printings.

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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I try to have duplicate copies of the cards so I don't have to proxy . . .
I totally get this. I do not like the idea of switching cards between decks or having to remember what deck Card X was in when I last used that card, and what if I left that deck at home so now a deck I brought is unplayable. So I either get additional copies of cards if I don't already have them for multiple decks, or those other decks end up using "the next best substitute" for that card or something else entirely (which is fine, introduces some variety in cards and/or power levels).

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 years ago

I fall somewhere in the Neutral to soft collector, but I am fortunate to have been playing for a long time and have some old and expensive cards. I don't like the reserved list, but I also don't like to use proxies. having expensive cards shouldn't be the deciding factor in who wins, and I don't think it does. I loose all the time to decks that are much cheaper than mine, usually because my expensive cards draw attention and make the other players aware of me more than others. It is a double edged sword by drawing attention to yourself by playing high profile cards. It is part of the game, building a collection, trading for cards, working on your deck. Plenty of cards that are recently printed cost much more than I am willing to pay, and many players more active than me have these new chase cards and I don't. I have no desire to start proxying every high end new card so I can have the mostest powerful deck at the table. That is not the meta I want to develop. But I do have desire to trade or purchase some of them and play the actual card should I feel it is worth it to own.

Sometimes I feel bad when one land on my field is worth more than the other players entire collection, however it really doesn't prevent me from loosing should those players infer (correctly or otherwise) that I must be a strong player and threat to be immediately dealt with. I may build a more budget friendly deck as a show of good faith that I am not solely tied to having expensive cards to win.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
If you never enjoyed any step in that process, then it's probably for the best that you realize that quickly, and at minimal cost. If you did, odds are you'll try to recreate the power level you enjoyed, and learn to control the power of your decks. That was my experience.
It's not just about enjoyment, it's about sunk costs. If all your cards are fake and you've barely started playing, I think you're a lot less likely to bother trying to find a way to keep the game fun and ultimately decide to self-limit on power. I know for me, there are a lot of video games that I play for a few hours and can't really get into and just don't come back. But once I get over the threshold and start to really get into it, I'll play it for hundreds or thousands of hours. In a lot of cases with those games, I'll start doing challenge runs, intentionally hamstringing myself to make it hard again so I can keep playing. Same principle as self-limiting in commander. Plus, if you've never had the fun of playing super jank, you might not even really know what you're missing out on.
I agree, and noted in my earlier post that players often foresee the end of an escalation in power without ever reaching it. If you instead mean to say that you have always been some special sage of the format and it just needs to be protected from us noobs who don't know what's best for ourselves, then I have a lot less sympathy for your arguments. So I'm going to assume that you're describing the same nigh-universal learning process I am, and not positioning yourself as uniquely and perpetually enlightened.
Wow, that's the least charitable interpretation of a text I've ever seen - even if you don't think that's what I meant, I think it's kind of insulting that you'd even mention it. I'm using myself as an example because, tbh, I haven't really talked to anyone else in detail about how they decided to start self-limiting so I don't have any other sources to pull from. In no way do I think I'm exceptional though - in fact I think this sort of story is probably very common, probably a lot more common than those who actually enter an arms race, because in a public environment it tends to be a lot more jumbled and there's a much less clear "race" when people are constantly coming and going. There's no arms race to foresee, so that seems like a completely different process to me.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Lord do I hate it when someone ignores the second paragraph of my post. I explicitly mention that players, especially newcomers to a group or meta, should ask if their proxies are ok, as a means of prompting a discussion of power level, because they might be coming from a different experience.
I feel like, if you're capable of having an ethos around proxy use and talking frankly about power level, you probably don't really need to go on a cEDH journey to learn about the endstate of power maxing in commander. The reason arms races can happen is that at least some people involved generally aren't thinking super consciously about power level, or that limiting it might be a virtue. If you're already conscious of that I don't think you'd really need it, tbh?
I've seen an arms race come to its conclusion, with some players peeling off to play cEDH, and the rest deciding against fast, low-piece-count combo, in a store with a few semiregulars, no consistent groups and a high degree of turnover.
I have a hard time visualizing how that could happen tbh.
You also seem to assume that proxy-users are uniquely prone to pubstomping, when I have found the opposite. All the proxying players I've seen tend to take the strong proxies out of their decks when asked, or just switch decks, but I've seen a couple players who own the cards act as if they have bought the right to pubstomp the rest of us.
Not prone. But more capable, definitely. In practice, since proxying is at least somewhat disparaged, people tend to be conservative with it and few problems arise. If proxying was fully accepted though, (the "pure player" approach) I fear that it would become a lot harder to police power levels. In the current world, while there are people who acquire real cards and pubstomp with them, they're certainly a lot rarer simply because of the investment required. In the pure proxy world, literally anyone with an internet connection can find the top-tier cEDH decks and proxy one up. In the current world, pubstomping almost has to be malicious because you'd surely have come to a reasonable understanding of commander power levels before you were able to acquire all the cards. Whereas in proxy-land, a brand new player could make a top-tier combo deck without having played a single game.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
It's not just about enjoyment, it's about sunk costs.
I mean, if someone's staying in the game because of sunk cost fallacy, rather than enjoyment, I don't consider that a win for any party. In my experience, only players who are fairly invested already start looking for optimization, comparing costs, and printing proxies.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I feel like, if you're capable of having an ethos around proxy use and talking frankly about power level, you probably don't really need to go on a cEDH journey to learn about the endstate of power maxing in commander.
That's why I said asking before playing with proxies is a way to start the conversation. Generally, with a newer player, it goes something like this:
>Hi, is it ok if I run proxies?
>What are you running?
>Demonic Consultation and Protean Hulk. Those cards are so rad!
>Ok, that's a bit above the power level the rest of us want to play, would your deck still work if you took them out?

or

>Yeah, I'm running Digiridoo so I can cast all my minotaurs for cheaper! It's the best card ever!
>Cool, let's play.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I have a hard time visualizing how that could happen tbh.
If you've ever seen those prisoner's dilemma models, it goes something like that. After each game with a more powerful deck, a given player chooses whether or not to increase the power of their own deck before the next game. Everyone reaches the top power level (the 'defect') option, until it reaches an equilibrium, then people who like that equilibrium go make a cEDH league, and people who don't start depowering their decks and having rule 0 talks before games. Those first conversations tend to be awkward, but with experience, people get better at talking about it. As new players come in, they are now brought into those new norms, because most games have at least 1 semi-experienced player out of 4-5 who starts and guides the rule 0 chat before the game.

This doesn't work for completely random global matchmaking situations like Cockatrice, but I increasingly think that those are as far from the RC's target audience as cEDH is, and might well benefit from their own banlist/rules.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
If proxying was fully accepted though, (the "pure player" approach) I fear that it would become a lot harder to police power levels.
I never argued for this. If you're debating with those who do, I'm not sure why you're quoting me. I think proxying should be allowed, but not normalized, and subject to a conversation before the start of the game.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I mean, if someone's staying in the game because of sunk cost fallacy, rather than enjoyment, I don't consider that a win for any party. In my experience, only players who are fairly invested already start looking for optimization, comparing costs, and printing proxies.
I don't think all sunk cost calculations are fallacious. Say you want to buy a board game, but there are only 2 available, Game A and Game B. You arbitrarily pick Game A. After 30 minutes of playing it, it doesn't seem like a very good game. You could just throw it out and go buy Game B instead, but I wouldn't say it's the sunk cost fallacy to give it a bit more of a chance. Similarly, if you spend time accumulating magic cards but it's become unfun with wherever/whomever you're playing, I don't think it's fallacious to make a bit of an effort to try something new - i.e. playing an intentionally-power-limited-game, perhaps with other people or at a different location.

I do also think that, if you jump into a no-card-limitations version of commander, you're a lot less likely to even have the opportunity to experience a lower-powered version of the game. Why would you bother trying to find a way to keep the game fun by power-limiting if the only version you've played is at super high power level?
That's why I said asking before playing with proxies is a way to start the conversation. Generally, with a newer player, it goes something like this:
>Hi, is it ok if I run proxies?
>What are you running?
>Demonic Consultation and Protean Hulk. Those cards are so rad!
>Ok, that's a bit above the power level the rest of us want to play, would your deck still work if you took them out?

or

>Yeah, I'm running Digiridoo so I can cast all my minotaurs for cheaper! It's the best card ever!
>Cool, let's play.
Actual response > Didgeridoo doesn't "cast" minotaurs noob, gtfo.

I think by the time you're having any conversation about power level, you probably already kinda get it and don't need to actually live out the cEDH metagame, let alone pubstomp. The people who tend to power spike are the people who wouldn't think - or wouldn't want - to have those conversations in the first place. My concern for a full-proxy environment is that you'd have a lot more new players, who wouldn't think to have those conversations, but would have the ability to power spike.
If you've ever seen those prisoner's dilemma models, it goes something like that. After each game with a more powerful deck, a given player chooses whether or not to increase the power of their own deck before the next game. Everyone reaches the top power level (the 'defect') option, until it reaches an equilibrium, then people who like that equilibrium go make a cEDH league, and people who don't start depowering their decks and having rule 0 talks before games. Those first conversations tend to be awkward, but with experience, people get better at talking about it. As new players come in, they are now brought into those new norms, because most games have at least 1 semi-experienced player out of 4-5 who starts and guides the rule 0 chat before the game.

This doesn't work for completely random global matchmaking situations like Cockatrice, but I increasingly think that those are as far from the RC's target audience as cEDH is, and might well benefit from their own banlist/rules.
How many people are we talking about? At my current LGS(s), we usually have 3-6 pods of 3-5 people each, with people coming and going all the time and wildly disparate power and skill levels. I have a hard time imagining anything that could be called an arms race in those sorts of conditions simply because many people will never have the budget to play powerful decks, many people will never take the game seriously enough to get very good at it, some number of people are of course intentionally limiting themselves, and then turnover and pod mixing means your deck might be garbage in one match and great in the next one. In a smaller public environment with maybe 6-8 people I could imagine it happening even with some amount of turnover, but in a more popular one I have a hard time.
I never argued for this. If you're debating with those who do, I'm not sure why you're quoting me. I think proxying should be allowed, but not normalized, and subject to a conversation before the start of the game.
I'm arguing against your statement "why try to foresee the end of the arms race, when you can experience it at no more than the cost of ink?"

To me this implies that everyone ought to play the cEDH meta/pubstomp in order to understand the value of self-limiting, and I just don't think that's necessary or useful. You recommending that people - presumably new players, since who else would need a demonstration of why power-limiting is valuable - should fully proxy cEDH decks certainly reads as an endorsement of a very proxy-heavy environment. If that's not what you meant, then I guess I'm not sure what you're advocating for?
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
To me this implies that everyone ought to play the cEDH meta/pubstomp in order to understand the value of self-limiting, and I just don't think that's necessary or useful. You recommending that people - presumably new players, since who else would need a demonstration of why power-limiting is valuable - should fully proxy cEDH decks certainly reads as an endorsement of a very proxy-heavy environment. If that's not what you meant, then I guess I'm not sure what you're advocating for?
I'm not saying everyone should enter an arms race, just that doing so is a good way to understand if you want to play at that powerlevel. I'd rather someone proxy a Great Henge, learn it's kind of bland, and take it out of their deck, than that same person buy it and then find out it's not fun. I think more people will come out of such an escalation with a better understanding of their desired power level than will leave the game.

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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

Proxy is fine, though I general dislike players who'd fill their deck with ridiculous amount of expensive artifact ramp and abusable combo cards.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Proxy is fine, though I general dislike players who'd fill their deck with ridiculous amount of expensive artifact ramp and abusable combo cards.
I kinda want to make a deck that plays nothing but terrifying combo cards but only with half the combo. Trike with no mike or Heliod, Helm with no leyline, tainted pact with no oracle, Palinchron with no mana doublers, etc. Just to freak people out.
BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I'm not saying everyone should enter an arms race, just that doing so is a good way to understand if you want to play at that powerlevel. I'd rather someone proxy a Great Henge, learn it's kind of bland, and take it out of their deck, than that same person buy it and then find out it's not fun. I think more people will come out of such an escalation with a better understanding of their desired power level than will leave the game.
Okay, that's a way tamer version of what I thought you were proposing. Although if it's something as minor as adding one blandly-powerful mythic to the deck, I don't think that's likely to significantly spike the power level of the deck. There are plenty of pretty weak decks at my LGS which are already running Great Henge and other cards like it. Adding another powerful card to those decks would almost certainly increase their enjoyment, and probably the enjoyment of the other players too since they'd be a better match for the meta.

To really see "oh, this is actually less fun at this power level, I should probably back it off" I think it'd need to either be a very centralizing card that warps their strategy around it, or be a much more significant overhaul than just one or two cards. Otherwise it's usually going to be a slow process of upgrading and gradual dissatisfaction as the deck gets stronger card by card, whether you're doing proxies or not.

For someone who's already onboard with intentionally limiting power, of course it can be useful to test cards and decide that the deck is too strong for the meta, or that it's leading the play patterns of the deck in an unfun direction. So I agree if that's what you're talking about. For those sorts of players, I say proxy it up. I just don't like handing the keys to the castle to new players who don't know the lay of the land yet.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by NZB2323 » 2 years ago

I'm definitely a player. As long as it's not a sanctioned tournament, this is a game and it should be fun and accessible. Also proxies don't always equate power level. My Winota deck with no proxies is at a higher power level than my Morophon Kavu combo deck which has the OG dual lands proxied. I also made my wife some proxies for Valentine's Day that has some cheap cards proxied, like Sol Ring with a picture of our wedding rings.

I don't bust out one of my decks with proxies unless someone else in my playgroup is playing with proxies and the group is cool with it. Also some of
My decks just have proxies of cards I own in other decks.
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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

i'm a player and in a funny case, I bought a gold bordered Flooded Strand because I thought the one I had was in a deck already. I ask the group I run with if it's okay, they said it was and are still cool with after I found out I don't even own a regular version.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 years ago

After coming back to this thread, I'd like to change my vote to Neutral, from Soft Collector. I don't think I can do that, but either way it is in this post. Honestly, I've never had a proxy talk with any group. Everyone seems content playing the cards they own, and I don't flash any pricey cards in anyone's face or point to them as a key part of my game plan. Whenever someone says something about a card being expensive I usually say something about getting it when it was cheaper and the reserved list messing with market prices a lot.

Exception to this is when a Gilded Drake directly won me a game last week and I did comment on it being a good card, but still overpriced.

I wouldn't be opposed to someone proxying very selectively, but throwing in fast mana, expensive interaction, and dual lands is just proxying for proxy's sake, not really required for any casual deck to compete in a typical pod. I see the value in actually owning the real cards, but am not lost on the fact that the vast majority of anyone getting into magic in the last few years are already completely priced out of a huge selection of really cool old cards by no fault of their own. Its a tough spot and I would be sympathetic if someone was really feeling out gunned. Hasn't been a problem yet.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I just don't like handing the keys to the castle to new players who don't know the lay of the land yet.
I think the castle can make a good vantage point from which to get the lay of the land. That said, the conversation before the game offers a way to explain why certain cards/combos are unfun without having to suffer through them.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Although if it's something as minor as adding one blandly-powerful mythic to the deck, I don't think that's likely to significantly spike the power level of the deck.
That was an oversimplified example.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

I dislike proxies in general, but if you're a cool person to chill with, exceptions can be made. If I didn't like you as a person, you can expect the full weight of my prejudice because I'm going to lean on every possible excuse not to be around you.

If I said my opinion worked any other way, I'd be lying. I will unabashedly flip my stance on Magic's gatekeeping %$#%$#% based on whether I want to spend time with you or not. It has very little to do with the game itself, and more the finite clock ticks I have left on Earth.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

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Proxies are fine. Problematic play isn't.

I do think allowing newer players unfettered access to the full suite of Magic's arsenal has drawbacks, but they're far outclassed by the pros to a more egalitarian player field. Just as I hate non-games due to fast mana, broken combos, and/or disparate power levels, I also hate non-games due to budgetary constraints. My theory is simple: if good games require a) competent players b) competent decks and c) relatively equal deck power levels, then removing the budget limitations in point b means more good games overall.

If only the banlist made sense, point c would be less relevant.

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