The Mini-Objective

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Something I've noticed about the sorts of decks I have fun playing recently is that I really like having what I would call a mini-objective. I'm still sorting out my thoughts on the idea and am curious what other people think about it.

To explain the sort of thing I mean, one broad category that stands out to illustrate my point is planeswalker ult emblems. An emblem like, say, Elspeth, Knight-Errant is not necessarily going to win the game (though it's obviously quite strong), but it's a difficult goal to achieve and helps to shape your plays towards the mini-objective of ultimating elspeth instead of simply trying to win. While there are easy ways to achieve this - doubling season, for example - especially in mono-white the path is relatively difficult, generally requiring some combination of removal, board wipes, politics, proliferate, fogs, etc.

That's not to say that emblems are the only mini-objective. A mini-objective could be very well-defined (activate Rowan's ultimate) or relatively loose (get as many counters on Skullbriar, the Walking Grave as possible). It can be a little tough to draw the line between a mini-objective and "just doing your deck's thing", but I think the dividing line would be whether, if you lose the game, you would say "well, at least I did X". If so, then X was your mini-objective.

I think another important distinction is that, while your mini-objective should be a significant step in winning the game, it should still require some legwork to actually win. "Getting mike + trike on the field at the same time" isn't really a mini-objective, that's just an attempt to win the game. On the flip side, a too-easy to achieve mini-goal might not be very satisfying and/or might not be a significant enough step towards ultimate victory. So hitting a sweet spot of being hard and significant, but not necessarily game-winning, is important.

Part of what makes this a satisfying game experience, in my opinion, is that it gives you something easier to shoot for than simply winning the game, and something that you can achieve even if you lose. While winning is obviously the eventual goal and is incompatible with your opponents' goals, the mini-objective doesn't have to be. Sometimes your opponents are too preoccupied with thwarting each other from outright winning, or attempting to win themselves, and preventing your mini-objective may be a lesser priority. Or sometimes whatever boon you get from your mini-objective may be helpful in thwarting a threatening player, so the other players may want you to succeed. This can make it significantly easier to achieve your mini-objective. A good mini-objective also gives you some structure to your play pattern beyond just "play a bunch of generally-synergistic stuff", while still allowing you to be proactive and feel like you're moving towards an end goal, without necessarily threatening to win the game.

So those are my thoughts so far. What do y'all think? Do you have any particularly fun mini-objectives in your decks?
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

I've always wanted to commander kill someone with Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist, who is basically a bear in her non-transforned state.

Bruna, the Fading Light has the meld mini-objective to make Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. Its honestly not that hard to achieve though, and lots of guys will let it happen because its such a unique mechanic. Its not an every game occurrence but its pretty simple to achieve.
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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

Well, I suppose you could say my Werewolf tribal deck has the mini-objective of getting Moonmist on Isochron Scepter. I would really like to pull that off some time. Other than that, though, I think my goals beyond winning are just to have had some noteworthy impact on the course of the game, and to surprise/impress people with obscure cards and interesting/flavorful deckbuilding. I'd also say that the latter is more important than winning for me, and that the former is as important. Guess I'm not much of a mini-objective guy on the whole, unless you count making your opponents go "hey, that's pretty cool" as one.
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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

I have never accomplished it, but some day I am going to kill someone using Stab Wound with my Kiku, Night's Flower assassins/rogues themed deck. Setting up for that to potentially be the lethal kill move is just convoluted and easily disrupted, but it doesn't stop me from trying.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

To be clear, the thing I'm talking about isn't a funny way to win the game - that's also a fun thing to do, but I'm referring to objectives you accomplish within a game that helps you win, but isn't a win itself - I think getting a planeswalker emblem is the simplest example, since it's binary (you either get the emblem, or you don't) and can't generally be reversed.

A mini-objective doesn't need to be something you do every game necessarily, but it could be. My golos deck, for example, has the mini-objective of getting Sorrow's Path with a lifelink counter on it, the ability to tap it for mana, and some number of enrage creatures. I don't always get the lifelink counter, but the rest of it is basically my whole game plan, and it's pretty consistent thanks to Golos tutoring lands. By contrast, a mono-white superfriends deck might have a mini-objective to ult some planeswalker, but is flexible with which one, so it could play out pretty different from game to game. Being difficult to reverse is generally important too, otherwise it's not going to be a reliable stepping-stone to victory. I.e. getting a 21-power commander is cool, but if it just dies to a doom blade then it's a pretty slippery stepping-stone.
Ruiner wrote:
2 years ago
I have never accomplished it, but some day I am going to kill someone using Stab Wound with my Kiku, Night's Flower assassins/rogues themed deck. Setting up for that to potentially be the lethal kill move is just convoluted and easily disrupted, but it doesn't stop me from trying.
Lol, should have played RTR limited, that card killed a ton of people back then.

But yeah, not really what I'm talking about in this case.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

Hey, even if the Moonmist-Scepter "combo" gets disrupted, I still think it would be pretty damn funny to pull off for even a few turns, and as a result worth some amount of joy, and I absolutely would comment happily on it after the game, so I think that qualifies, even if it is easily reversed. I would have thought that even killing one player with a Stab Wound would be amusing enough as a mini-objective to be worthy of the title, too, and it's not like taking one player out wins the game either. But I suppose you're talking more things that can be achieved fully relying on your own deck? Is that why that's at least semi-disqualified in your mind, Dirk?
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Jemolk wrote:
2 years ago
Hey, even if the Moonmist-Scepter "combo" gets disrupted, I still think it would be pretty damn funny to pull off for even a few turns, and as a result worth some amount of joy, and I absolutely would comment happily on it after the game, so I think that qualifies, even if it is easily reversed. I would have thought that even killing one player with a Stab Wound would be amusing enough as a mini-objective to be worthy of the title, too, and it's not like taking one player out wins the game either.
Well, there are lots of things that can be fun, and all of that is worth discussing, but that doesn't mean it qualifies as what I'm specifically talking about in this thread.
But I suppose you're talking more things that can be achieved fully relying on your own deck? Is that why that's at least semi-disqualified in your mind, Dirk?
The stab wound thing is definitely unrelated since it's a way to actually kill someone. A mini-objective is about the result, not the means. Killing someone is killing someone, regardless of how you do it, so it's not really a special unique objective for that deck. Everyone's objective is always to kill the other players, after all.

The scepter example is very borderline - in my mind, the bigger issue is less that it's easily destroyed (that might depend on meta - some artifacts live for the entire game, it's almost always more durable than a creature, but less durable than an enchantment and a lot less durable than a land), but more that (and I could be wrong since you don't have the decklist linked) I doubt the deck is constructed in such a way as to (1) make the objective reasonably likely to accomplish and (2) an important, common play for the deck.

In the planeswalker example, you'd presumably build the deck to make it easier to ult those planeswalkers with protection, proliferation, etc, and possibly tutors for one of them if it's one you particularly want to ultimate. And in that situation, ultimating is a core part of your plan - if you fail to ultimate, you're significantly less likely to win the game. With my Golos deck, you could potentially win just by dumping stuff onto the board with Golos, but the deck gets a major boost from having sorrow's path available, and a huge boost from having a lifelink counter on it, so the deck is designed to make those things easy to accomplish with tutors and golos in the CZ.

The mini-objective should generally be your path-of-least-resistance when attempting to win, and the deck should be constructed to take advantage of that. If it's a "I hope this cool combo comes together but it's not very important and it's not really worth stacking tutors to make it likely" than I don't think it qualifies. It has to be a significant part of your gameplan, even if it doesn't necessarily happen every single game.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

As a corollary, I'll note that when your enjoyment of a game is linked to winning, that means you'll end up not enjoying a majority of games (assuming balanced win percentage). On the other hand, if your enjoyment is linked to something else - such as completing a mini-objective - then it's possible to feel satisfied in every game.

Anyway, I often find myself going on sidequests in my search for victory - getting all of the lands in my deck onto the battlefield and drawing enough cards to nearly deck myself are two common ones, but those tend to correlate a bit too directly with winning. However, I think that the most interesting side objectives I try to go for usually involve trying something new - either testing out a card that I recently added to a deck (ex: 'how many times can I activate <card>? is it worth it to do so?') or trying to pull off a new combo or synergy I haven't gotten to do before.

Some recurring quests I often go for with my decks:
  • Sharuum - pull off a new combo that I haven't previously assembled - the more pieces involved, the better
  • Tasigur - Death Cloud + World Shaper
  • Samut - activate Yisan, the Wanderer Bard as many times in a single turn cycle as possible
  • Teysa - get as many charge counters on Black Market as possible
  • Thada - get as many Sol Rings as possible

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
The mini-objective should generally be your path-of-least-resistance when attempting to win, and the deck should be constructed to take advantage of that. If it's a "I hope this cool combo comes together but it's not very important and it's not really worth stacking tutors to make it likely" than I don't think it qualifies. It has to be a significant part of your gameplan, even if it doesn't necessarily happen every single game.
Fair enough, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarifications. It probably would be worth stringing together tutors for Moonmist-Scepter in a lot of cases in that deck, but in Gruul, I don't have a bunch of tutors to string together to get it, so it doesn't really matter anyway. And that may be its most effective path to winning, but if so that's probably partially because Gruul Werewolf tribal with Ulrich isn't very good at winning. (It's definitely my weakest deck by a good margin.)

I'd link a decklist, but it doesn't exist online at this point. I'm probably going to try and put all my decks on TappedOut and then link to a user page in my signature at some point, but that'll take some time.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Oh, this is easy. A bunch of my decks have these. The most blatant is Tivadar of Thorn. Every time Tivadar of Thorn kills a goblin (he has to trigger and that trigger has to send a goblin to the graveyard, so people saccing in response doesn't count), I mark his card. The goal of the deck is to get him as many kills as possible. I count the game a success only if he kills a goblin, even if I lose. I count the game a failure if he fails to get a kill tally, even if I win. He's got enough tick marks that the top of his border is covered, and now I'm going down the right border. The deck usually wins by being obviously bad and then getting down to a 1v1 and locking my opponent out of casting creatures, because I'm looping Shields of Velis Vel and flickering Tivadar of Thorn (usually accompanied by me telling my opponent it's their fault for allowing so many goblins disguise themselves and hide in their deck). Well that or Armored Ascension to make Tivadar of Thorn one-shot them out of nowhere.

My other decks much smaller, less explicit goals that give me great pleasure when I accomplish them.

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Post by cheonice » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Oh, this is easy. A bunch of my decks have these. The most blatant is Tivadar of Thorn. Every time Tivadar of Thorn kills a goblin (he has to trigger and that trigger has to send a goblin to the graveyard, so people saccing in response doesn't count), I mark his card. The goal of the deck is to get him as many kills as possible. I count the game a success only if he kills a goblin, even if I lose. I count the game a failure if he fails to get a kill tally, even if I win. He's got enough tick marks that the top of his border is covered, and now I'm going down the right border. The deck usually wins by being obviously bad and then getting down to a 1v1 and locking my opponent out of casting creatures, because I'm looping Shields of Velis Vel and flickering Tivadar of Thorn (usually accompanied by me telling my opponent it's their fault for allowing so many goblins disguise themselves and hide in their deck). Well that or Armored Ascension to make Tivadar of Thorn one-shot them out of nowhere.
Could you provide us with a picture of your marked Tivadar? That sounds absolutely hilarious!

Two of my decks try to assemble Emeria, the Sky Ruin. With all the green ramp and Knight of the Reliquary in Selvala, Explorer Returned this happens quite regularly. But making this work in Ephara, God of the Polis via Land Tax and no way to tutor for Emeria is quite a challenge and feels really satisfying.

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Post by Dragonlover » 2 years ago

Hmm, lets think.

Golos: Not for this definition. I do have the long term goal of winning with every wincon in the deck at least once however.
Lathliss: I don't need a minigame in this one, just vomiting dragons onto the board gives me enough joy.
Molimo: Resolving Genesis Wave, preferably for at least 15. Even if I lose, if I get to Genesis Wave then I'm happy.
Virtus & Gorm: Get a morph, manifest and an Ugin Spirit token into play at the same time.
Mono-W legends: Assemble Kaldra, with the potential sub goal of equipping it with Kaldra Compleat if that card ends up in the deck. Quite tricky with like, zero tutors.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 years ago

Mini-objective based on the narrow definition sounds like a standard theme or common path to victory for any given deck. Maybe with a named card thrown in that you like more than the others.

Karador, Ghost Chieftain Reanimaotr: Theme- control the board and reanimate creatures for value. Mini-Objective- Find a graveyard filler like Altar of Dementia or Doom Whisperer and go for a big Living Death. My favorite win condition here. Also I have really been liking Luminous Broodmoth loops, bonus points if Saffi Eriksdotter is involved.

Kalamax, the Stormsire Tempo Aggro: Theme - Put pressure on opponents through combat with creatures that have attack triggers or like attacking. Mini-Objective - Cast some cantrip combat tricks on Kalamax to sneak in damage and potentially get that commander damage kill. Copy Electrodominance and get 2 free spells at instant speed to set up a big turn. Cast Double Vision with Kalamax and go full value town with Prophetic Bolt or Mystic Confluence

Talrand, Sky Summoner No Creature Control: Theme - Drake Aggro/Control. Mini-Objective - Get as many Drakes on board as possible. Build up a huge Sphinx-Bone Wand and start dealing a bunch of damage. Get Caged Sun and Gauntlet of Power in play and start swinging with 4/4 drakes.

Titania, Protector of Argoth Lands: Theme - Lands. Mini-Objective: Cast Scapeshift with Titania, Protector of Argoth and Greater Good or Garruk's Uprising in play, find Concordant Crossroads, Smash Face. Do it again with Splendid Reclamation and Zuran Orb.

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Post by Outcryqq » 2 years ago

A small mini-game in my Lord of Tresserhorn deck is to cast Torpor Orb prior to casting Tresserhorn. It always feels so good to not have his ETB triggers! In that deck, I also love the mini-game of trying to set up Rooftop Storm + Havengul Lich, it's so fun to cast each zombie in my yard for 1 generic mana each!

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Post by RxPhantom » 2 years ago

I have a new General Ferrous Rokiric deck that I'm pretty pleased with. My kinda sorta mini-goal would be to cast Blasphemous Act while controlling Boros Reckoner, Truefire Captain, and Spitemare, thus dealing 39 damage to someone's dome. I'm a big fan of dumb, easily-disrupted combos involving multiple creatures.
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I really like having what I would call a mini-objective.
This is often where I start when building a deck. My latest is Sefris, and it's to go through dungeons as often as possible. Most of the time, my least successful decks don't have some mini-objective.

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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

In my Etali, Primal Storm Chaos deck, its all about doing the craziest/most unexpected things I can do. For example, winning the game with Laboratory Maniac or going infinite with Helm of the Host even though the deck doesn't have a way to go infinite with Helm of the Host in it.

For my Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith // Falthis, Shadowcat Familiar Treasure Deck (Which I unfortunately haven't been able to play yet) I have a list of ways I want to win by at least once that include: Revel in Riches, Giant Crackle with Power, Hellkite Tyrant, Throwing Rocks, Marionette Master//Nadier's Nightblade (plus a few other cards) ping, Pincer swarm, Dragon Beats. Just the variety of ways the deck can win is why I am really excited to play it... eventually...

The Omenkeel - The deck doesn't have Field of the Dead, so I really want to win via Field of the Dead once.

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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

got a white/blue deck which flits between commanders, and always seems to attempt to get copies of Flowering Field on every land I control, using Lithoform Engine and Vedalken Mastermind. it's a fun, ridiculous and massively underpowered pursuit but you get to be surrounded by flowers.. it's sort of copy themed, with Copy Enchantment, and it has some unfair Replenish/Dance of the Manse/Starfield of Nyx wins baked inside it (and also runs a bunch of other w/u cards with Dance in the name: Dance of Many, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer, Kor Spiritdancer etc.) but frankly who tries to win? Just wanna put something stylish on the battlefield

current commanders are Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist and a proxied Sakashima of a Thousand Faces lol

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Guardman wrote:
2 years ago
In my Etali, Primal Storm Chaos deck, its all about doing the craziest/most unexpected things I can do. For example, winning the game with Laboratory Maniac or going infinite with Helm of the Host even though the deck doesn't have a way to go infinite with Helm of the Host in it.

For my Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith // Falthis, Shadowcat Familiar Treasure Deck (Which I unfortunately haven't been able to play yet) I have a list of ways I want to win by at least once that include: Revel in Riches, Giant Crackle with Power, Hellkite Tyrant, Throwing Rocks, Marionette Master//Nadier's Nightblade (plus a few other cards) ping, Pincer swarm, Dragon Beats. Just the variety of ways the deck can win is why I am really excited to play it... eventually...

The Omenkeel - The deck doesn't have Field of the Dead, so I really want to win via Field of the Dead once.
Ok just to clarify again, by my definition anything that wins that game cannot be a mini-objective. The point is that it's a sub-goal, an important part of your plan that gives you a significant boost in your attempt to win the game, that gives you something to aim for before you actually try to win.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Treamayne
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Post by Treamayne » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Something I've noticed about the sorts of decks I have fun playing recently is that I really like having what I would call a mini-objective. I'm still sorting out my thoughts on the idea and am curious what other people think about it.
<snip>

I think another important distinction is that, while your mini-objective should be a significant step in winning the game, it should still require some legwork to actually win. "Getting mike + trike on the field at the same time" isn't really a mini-objective, that's just an attempt to win the game. On the flip side, a too-easy to achieve mini-goal might not be very satisfying and/or might not be a significant enough step towards ultimate victory. So hitting a sweet spot of being hard and significant, but not necessarily game-winning, is important.

Part of what makes this a satisfying game experience, in my opinion, is that it gives you something easier to shoot for than simply winning the game, and something that you can achieve even if you lose.

<snip>

So those are my thoughts so far. What do y'all think? Do you have any particularly fun mini-objectives in your decks?
Wow, reminds me of our discussion last year:
SPOILER
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DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
The purpose of the game is fun, yes, but the goal is to win - without the goal of trying to win, there's no meaningful context to make things fun.
Treamayne wrote:
3 years ago
Games do need a goal, and winning is one common goal. It is not the only goal, nor is it the only worthy goal. If a player is not "playing to win," it does not mean they are playing to lose.

For example: I left competitive Magic behind during Urza's block in 2000 (for various reasons). I used to do a random pre-release now and then if the set intrigued me, but I haven't even done that since Khans. Now, my goal when I play Magic is to relax, have fun and try new* things (tm). While playing I may see if I can successfully get 3-4 token copies of Powerstone Shard online (C Karn Golem deck); or get Cream of the Crop and Lurking Predators in play at the same time (RGW Gahiji Beast deck); etc. Each deck has one or two "things" I would like to see if I can make work.
Glad we kept the discussion going long enough to realize we were mostly saying similar things, differently. I would hope that discussion helped springboard this new awesome thread.
I, too, have made more of my "goals" (mini-objectives) better focused toward advancing the win since that conversation - so that I don't give the impression that I'm not trying to win - or that I only want to durdle. I like the synopsis of "advance the deck's plan - even if the mini objective is just a step toward victory" (paraphrased). Do you also think that politics might play a role?

For example, I've reduced some of the threats in my Sygg, River Cutthroat Rogue deck to add things like Crown of Doom, Coveted Jewel, Monarch cards, and a few curses in the hopes that I can get more opponents attacking each other than worrying about my (likely unblockable) rogues. So, if I successfully get the other players into attacking each other (even if it is a split attack at me too) do you think that would be a mini-objective complete? As long as I'm getting Sygg triggers without always having to attack myself; I would say the idea bore fruit; but I'm not sure if that's the type of objective you are considering for this idea.

That said, since last I mentioned it, I have in fact gotten up to 5 token copies of Powerstone Shard with the Karn mono-brown deck (once).

I also was able to hit one of my other goals last weekend - Cipher onto a Vehicle (so both survive a standard board wipe). With my Sydri Vehicles deck, I was able to Stolen Identity an opponent's Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, and cipher it onto an animated (Sydri ability, not crew) Mobile Garrison with Planar Collapse ready to trigger next upkeep. I attacked and cast the cipher trigger to copy a different opponent's Managorger Hydra to have a blocker while awaiting the Collapse (the tokens made the count).

One of the new ideas I am working on is that I have changed my Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist deck from Equipment to a more Cat Token - go wide strategy. In changing the mix of creatures I noticed Hungry Lynx and Feline Sovereign - so I am working on the best way to turn opponent creatures into dogs/rats. I haven't worked out the whole strategy yet (though Shields of Velis Vel is obvious - but also an alpha strike set-up) but I am going to try using the creature type protection to my advantage.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Here's a few more examples I thought of that I think meet the criteria:

Flipping one of the transform lands
Getting a loam engine going
Setting up the eidolon package in my new Sefris deck
Getting Cosima safely into exile
Getting the sunforger + instant equip thing going in my plargg deck

The latter 3 are basically the core plan of those decks. The first 2 aren't necessarily mandatory, it does depend on the deck, though my Phelddagrif deck for example tends to lean fairly heavily on getting Loam going, even though it's very possible to win without it. Flipping a transform land could just be a small part of the deck, but for example my Arixmethes deck treated flipping lands the way a superfriends deck might treat ulting planeswalkers.

We can see here that some things are easier to set up, and/or further along the path towards winning, than others. Getting sunforger + instant equip turns out to be a pretty short jump from winning the game, and takes a fair amount of mana, especially if you're trying to be careful. Getting Cosima into exile, on the other hand, pretty easy. Don't let your 3-drop die and you're fine. But then you have to wait at least 10 turns or so before you can actually try to kill anyone with her, or get any value off her (unless you abort early like a coward).

Edit: another perfect example, albeit from a different game, is quests in hearthstone, for those familiar.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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