Wizards is designing for 60 card casual, and why that's good for EDH

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

In the past year, I've noticed a trend that's both frustrating and exciting in standard legal expansions: new, interesting mechanics that suck in commander. This has always existed to some extent, but usually the mechanics aimed at standard tend to be pushed and end up being key to the tournament meta, like energy, or open ended enough that they aren't really meant to be built around. Enter Venture and Learn. Learn just doesn't work in commander, and while they made several legends that care about venture, and even commander precons with venture referencing commanders, there just aren't enough venture cards to get a critical mass of the effect, even when delving deep into limited chaff territory. Neither mechanic is overly pushed, both really need a non singleton format to be truly viable, and both are really interesting, flavorful, value mechanics that can get people excited to build around. All of those factors point to 60 card casual being the place to best enjoy them, and I think that's great!

I love commander, but the decline of 60 card casual has, I think, hurt commander as a format for a few reasons. First, for a while now wizards has been treating commander as THE casual format, and primarily designing casual focused cards FOR commander. Wizards still doesn't really get the format though, and is much better at designing for 60 card formats. By refocusing some of their work on 60 card casual, we will reap the incidental benefit of interesting, balanced casual cards we can use in EDH, while wizards relearns what makes casual play tick beyond big Timmy cards that get overly pushed. Second, not everyone wants to play commander at first, so having a vibrant 60 card casual format serves them. Many of those people will, eventually, also take up commander, so long term this grows the EDH player base. Ideally you'd see playgroups and stores play both 60 card casual and EDH, as it reaches a broader group of people. The flip side would be more EDH players would dabble in 60 card casual as they'd make a couple of decks for the nights when that is played. Third, the amount of cards and edh focused stuff (Brawl included, because lets face it more people turned the Brawl precons into EDH decks than actually used them for Brawl) has become exhausting. Having the sets be more than just "Limited, Tournament Standard and EDH" and "Just EDH" focused would be a relief. Fourth, the long time viability of both Magic as a hobby and EDH as a casual format governed by a Rules Committee not employed by Wizards is better secured by not having EDH be the end all be all of Magic, and tournament magic existing isn't enough to keep that from happening. A variety of formats is key to Magic's long term viability, as it keeps the game from getting stale and allows people to stay engaged even if they don't like whatever is the most popular right now. Formats allow the same game to be experienced in numerous different ways, and having those formats actually be viable and vibrant is key. While multiple formats keeps Magic as a whole healthy, it also protects the status quo of how EDH is run. I think the RC has been fundamental not just for the obvious reason of creating the format and promoting it during its early days, but for stewarding the format through its several years as the top dog of Magic. This is a fairly unique setup, with the premier way the game is played being managed by a group other than the one that actually produces the game. That independence is more secure the less central EDH is to Magic's overall health, at least in my opinion. The more central it is, the more incentive Wizards has to interfere, while the less central it is the more likely Wizards will be letting it do its own thing. Currently EDH is very important to Wizards, and is on the "more central" end of that spectrum, but other formats are still viable enough that it isn't the only thing going in Magic. I worry that if the other formats really do shrivel, and EDH and Magic become essentially synonymous, that will bode ill for the future of the format and the game. Boosting 60 card casual with cool mechanics shows that, I think, Wizards sees things the same way.

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

big sixty-card chaos fan and I just wanna say I fully agree. plus with attention divided between casual formats, the rate at which cards and strats get functionally obsoleted slows down like crazy

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 2 years ago

Honestly... i don't get your point. I don't see how venture and learn being weak mechanics in commander make it a better format. It's been a think since some of the last years.
Kaladesh: didn't make vehicles or energy playable.
Amonkhet: didn't make playable deserts or cycling. The only remotely playable block mechanic was embalm thanks to Temmet. I hardly think that made the format worse.
Ixalan: didn't make explore playable. The only new mechanic good in commander was dinosaur tribal. I hardly think that made the format worse.
Dominaria: sagas and historic not particularly playable
RtRtR block: lots of unfocused guild mechanics that didn't make a big impact on commander
Eldraine: adventure and food are not playable in a dedicated deck (maybe food is now thanks ti MH2 and Gyom, but sure it was crap with just Eldraine)
Ikoria: are mutate and ability counters doing something in commander? Not really
Zendikar rising: good luck if you make a party deck
Kaldheim: maybe this time we have one playable mechanic, foretell
AFR: venture is hot crap

Meanwhile nothing stopped them from printing Golos, Korvold, Yarok...
So yeah the problem was never standard mechanics becoming OP in commander, it was always with single cards. The format would actually be better if fringe decks like an explore deck or a mutate deck were playable.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
2 years ago
Amonkhet: didn't make playable deserts or cycling. The only remotely playable block mechanic was embalm thanks to Temmet. I hardly think that made the format worse.
< SNIP >
Ikoria: are mutate and ability counters doing something in commander? Not really
Speak for yourself. Around the release of Hour of Devastation, I built 5c cycling control using all the new cycling payoffs and Cromat as the commander, and its only real weakness ended up being Planeswalkers. Other than that, it ended up one of my stronger decks for the time straight out of the gate. The thing is, I did have to work at it to some extent, because there was no obvious build-around commander to just jam cards into. And now that I've swapped Garth One-Eye in as the commander of 5c cycling (because I can blink him, and I wanted an excuse to throw some Shivan Dragon|DRBs around), I needed a new deck for my pretty, pretty foil Cromat to helm, so I'm working on 5c Mutate, and it looks like a ton of fun. They're not liable to dominate groups, though, no, that much is true (at least not anymore -- 5c cycling control was, as I said, at the time I built it, one of my stronger decks and one of the more annoying for my group, but general power creep has happened since then), but they're also not doing "nothing."

You're not entirely wrong in the context of this thread, of course, because they're not breaking games, no. But the contrast is that learn and venture (learn especially) aren't forced to work in commander at all, and that is perhaps indicative of a change in design direction where commander is de-emphasized generally. Hopefully it means we see less designed-to-be-your-commander Golos and Kenrith variants, and more weirdness that we have to actually work to break.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

I agree with OP as well. The less centralized a system is, the more difficult it is to exploit. I think the player ecosystem moves through cycles of centralization and diversification, due to the competing pressures of network effects and format exploitation. In a diverse state, when most formats on are on a level footing, players will gravitate towards whichever suits their personal playstyle and has the lowest barriers to entry. As a format starts to gain ground, it fires games more easily than its competitors and so attracts the mass of players with no strong preferences, accelerating centralization. Once the ecosystem becomes sufficiently centralized, however, it becomes the, rather than just a, market for new cards. Each new product must have some new staple for that particular format (which usually means it must outcompete some existing card or class of cards). The ensuing power creep destabilizes and eventually breaks its metagame. At the same time, increased demand for staple cards in that format drives up barriers to entry. The increased barriers to entry slow recruitment into the format, while the power creep and metagame problems drive out established players. The discontented established players start experimenting with ways to fix the mistakes of the format they left, or provide a wholly new experience and new players seek out those that seem interesting and have low enough barriers to entry, starting the cycle anew at a diverse format system.

The last such period of diversity peaked around 2014-15, which I think goes underacknowledged because EDH ultimately resettled at the centre of casual play. However, variants such as Tiny Leaders, Planeswalker Commander, and Brawl were not inevitable dead ends, but viable competitors of EDH that lost for contingent reasons. cEDH seriously looked as though it might calve off into its own separate format. Older casual formats, like Two-Headed Giant, Horde and Emperor also gained prominence, and didn't fizzle out for reasons inherent in themselves, but were simply pushed aside in the ensuing period of centralization. Meanwhile, the competitive scene did change at around this time, with Standard losing its throne as the, well, standard of tournament and Tier 2 play amid a panoply of "post-Modern" and "long Standard" variants that eventually coalesced into Pioneer. Even Legacy and Vintage saw some competition around this time in the form of 93/94, Canlander, and the aforementioned cEDH splinter.

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Treamayne
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Post by Treamayne » 2 years ago

I like that non-EDH formats can get some fuel that doesn't have to compete with EDH audiences. I miss Tribal Legacy, Star, Rainbow Stairwell, Emperor, 5 Moons, etc. et. al.

Unfortunately I play primarily (only? - last Paper game was 2017) on MTGO where WotC has decided we can't play those formats anymore.* I would love to get some 60 card casual games, but that's not going to happen on MTGO.

*Note:
SPOILER
Show
Hide
Deliberate Hyperbole for emphasis, but let's look at the chain of decisions that created this result:
- Removed Multi-player room (that was essentially the home for all Casual formats)
- Removed "Casual Rules" options (FFA, Attack left/right, Spell Range, etc.)
- Removed support for all games with greater than 4 players (3HG. Emperor, Star and 5 moons - gone)
- Removed the ability to chat with the players at the "table" pre-game (by making the chat only open after the game begins)
-- Also affects the hypothetical EDH "Rule 0"
- Removed support for deck validation for Tribal, Rainbow Stairwell, Highlander, etc.
-- Supported Casual Formats are now: EDH, Brawl, Pauper, and Momir (Planechase technically, but I haven't seen that fire in years, and you can't run it with EDH)

Result: You can play Tournament formats, Draft, League, Cube (but not make your own - just WotC events) or EDH.

With a healthy clan you might put together a format you self regulate, as long as it conforms to Standard, Modern, Pioneer, Vintage or Legacy primary rules. But I haven't seen that happen in years either. PureMTGO has a Tribal event they run this way - by submitting decklists for validation, but making the decks as "Legacy."
V/R

Treamayne

onering
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
2 years ago
Honestly... i don't get your point. I don't see how venture and learn being weak mechanics in commander make it a better format. It's been a think since some of the last years.
Kaladesh: didn't make vehicles or energy playable.
Amonkhet: didn't make playable deserts or cycling. The only remotely playable block mechanic was embalm thanks to Temmet. I hardly think that made the format worse.
Ixalan: didn't make explore playable. The only new mechanic good in commander was dinosaur tribal. I hardly think that made the format worse.
Dominaria: sagas and historic not particularly playable
RtRtR block: lots of unfocused guild mechanics that didn't make a big impact on commander
Eldraine: adventure and food are not playable in a dedicated deck (maybe food is now thanks ti MH2 and Gyom, but sure it was crap with just Eldraine)
Ikoria: are mutate and ability counters doing something in commander? Not really
Zendikar rising: good luck if you make a party deck
Kaldheim: maybe this time we have one playable mechanic, foretell
AFR: venture is hot crap

Meanwhile nothing stopped them from printing Golos, Korvold, Yarok...
So yeah the problem was never standard mechanics becoming OP in commander, it was always with single cards. The format would actually be better if fringe decks like an explore deck or a mutate deck were playable.

My point isn't that the mechanics are weak in commander and that commander has been inundated with pushed mechanics. My point is that wizards has designed two showcase mechanics with non commander casual in mind. They aren't just throwaway mechanics for limited, nor are they pushed to make an impact on standard tournaments. They are really interesting mechanics designed for casual play that weren't then forced to fit into commander. I see it as more intentional support for 4 of, 60 card casual. Most of the mechanics you listed either didn't do anything innovative or interesting to draw people in to 60 card, or (like energy) were pushed too hard in places and ended up as a tournament centric mechanic. I'm not saying you couldn't build a casual energy deck, but you could build a casual affinity deck back in Mirroring block and still have it bear the try hard stigma.

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