Are time warps secretly traps?

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LightningHelix
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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

This might be a controversal subject, but hear me out.

Are cards like Time Warp secretly traps?

Getting another untap step is moot if you spend 5 mana to do it in the first place, so you either need to have a bunch of mana to cast other spells or somehow reduce the cost of said Time warp to get any benefit from an untap step.

I think you need a specific deck that can take advantage of all aspects of an extra turn. Like a blue deck that also uses creatures for an extra combat step or ones that have a lot of planeswalkers that get another chance to use loyalty abilities.

There's a real danger in Time warps just become a fancy over costed Explore, I could see an argument for time warps that can become cheaper such as Temporal Mastery or Temporal Trespass in the right deck.

One could argue that you can use Time warps for "infinite turns" but isn't there a plethora of more efficient (and frankly less annoying) ways to go infinite and win the game?

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think time warps are extremely overrated, but maybe I'm missing something.

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Post by Krishnath » 2 years ago

It's not just an additional untap and draw, it is also two additional main phases, and an additional combat step. If timed right, it could win you the game, right then and there. That extra draw step could give you the answer you are looking for to take out a threat, or that extra attack step you needed to knock a threat out of the game. Extra turns for you are incredibly dangerous for your opponents.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

There isnt a right answer here. In some situations will just be a extra land drop (Savor the Moment is specially the case here). But its often too much value. Depends on board state, deck etc.

On Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy for example where you are generating crazy amounts of mana an extra turn will end up worth much more than 5

I also think that if you are extra turning without a plan to advance your game you are probably playing it wrong but idk. Unless its a hail mary kind of situation

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Post by JovialJovian » 2 years ago

It all comes down to being prepared to take advantage of the extra turn. The minimum threshold for an extra turn is Explore because drawing an additional card and having the opportunity to play an additional land are the only two elements you are guaranteed to get without any other resources in play. This is supposed to be what balances Temporal Mastery, if the miracle shows up unexpectedly and you can't capitalize on it, all you get is an at-cost Explore. Savor the Moment is the clearest example of this, most likely depriving you of not only an untap, but also a combat (as your creatures will still be tapped). I use that one specifically in decks where I want cheap extra upkeep triggers, namely Braids, Conjurer Adept.

If you see people play Time Warp without a clear plan to capitalize on it, they're probably making a desperation move for that extra card and land drop.

I've rarely seen a deck go for truly infinite turns, and the table scoops to it immediately, rather than watch the combo deck play solitaire, so it's not all that annoying. But the decks that leverage extra turns seldom need to go infinite, once they're ready for it, just a few extra turns in a row creates such a huge imbalance in the game, that it's usually impossible to recover, and often they will win outright before having to pass the turn to another player.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Infinite turns is one of the most compact wincons in the game with the fewest dead cards and can be done after using warps for value.

As value cards they are generally worse than most alternatives but as a component of a spell slinger or blink wincon the excel.

They are boring but man they are bananas good.

Packages like high market volraths stronghold eternal witness, or riptide lab archaeomancer, or soul herder/thassas/closet plus arch/witness are just magnificently slot efficient. Mostly good cards.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 years ago

Extra-turn effects almost never appear in cEDH apart from a few decks that focus on them. Tatyova, Benthic Druid would be example of possible cEDH Turns commander; Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow & Edric, Spymaster of Trest would be a couple other options. Some Tatyova decks will play a single Temporal Manipulation or whatever for combo potential. Turns commanders excel at drawing a bunch of cards each turn, making extra turns high value.

In more casual EDH, extra-turn spells do well in my experience. The worst-case scenarios include not drawing enough mana sources to cast one while it sits in your hand & paying 5+ mana for an extra-turn spell only to have an opponent respond with Mana Drain. Assuming you can cast Time Warp & it resolves, you're getting an Explore that leaves all your lands untapped when you pass the turn back. That's a pretty low floor; almost any higher-cost spell has the same worst-case scenarios. Best case scenario, you win because of an additional combat, additional planeswalker activations, or looping extra-turn effects. I've seen extra-turn spell close out many, many games over the years. I try to avoid extra-turn effects in my friendlier decks, or only play ones that exile themselves.

EDIT: Many cEDH decks play Final Fortune these days.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

It's not an overcosted explore if it untaps your lands.

The floor, assuming you cast it and it resolves, is a free explore that you can't play until 5 mana. The ceiling is very, very high in the late-game. You don't really need a deck that can "take advantage of it" so much as a deck that does basically anything. If you can't accomplish something with an extra turn then your deck probably isn't functional.

Anyway they're OP and miserable to play against, kinda wish they were banned tbh. The downside in other formats, that you might not live to see 5 mana, is quite unlikely in normal commander.
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Post by JWK » 2 years ago

If your deck is designed correctly and runs extra turn effects, those effects are very much not a trap, and in fact might just win you the game. I have seen that to be the case much, much more often than not.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Extra turns are extremely strong. They're also sort of miserable to play against. People joke about the floor for Time Warp being an overcosted Explore, but untapping everything on your extra turn means they actually cost zero mana in practice. Meanwhile, the ceiling is extremely high - in the lategame, there are a lot of boardstates that will win the game if left unchecked for a turn, and getting that extra turn immediately can be huge. Extra turns work particularly well with planeswalkers to jank out a faster ultimate. They also work well with any deck that cares about extra combats - those are usually limited to red decks, which means extra turns are uniquely useful for combat-based blue decks.

Of course, there is an opportunity cost - if the game ends before you reach five mana, then the extra turn spells will be uncastable. They're also somewhat weak to countermagic. But unless your opponents are playing a blue deck, they're extremely difficult to interact with.

Anyway, I refuse to run extra turns on principle, because I find them miserable... but if I didn't have that qualm, I'd snap-include some in Brago, Thada, and Kess, and strongly consider them for my other blue decks as well.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

My take on 5 mana extra turns is that they are always good and always worth casting. The only real time there is any question in them is if you expect to encounter counter magic when casting them. At their very worst they tend to be a free cantrip assuming they resolved. There are a few hate cards to stop extra turns but they are literally horrible cards that do almost nothing else.
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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

I suppose even at its worst case its kind of a free Explore (since untapping your lands pretty much makes it such.)

So maybe a better question might be, at what point are they no longer good? If Time Warp and equivalent cards (Capture of Jingzhou and Temporal Manipulation) are great cards, what about paying 6, 7 or 8 mana for said effect. The risk at higher mana costs being that they rot in your hand until you have enough mana and don't do enough when you get there. Like would one consider playing Nexus of Fate or Walk the Aeons

So maybe the following ones are good enough?

Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Capture of Jingzhou - I'll never acquire it, as I'll never buy a non-reserve list card over 200$
Temporal Mastery - In a deck that has a lot of topdeck manipulation, like Aminatou, the Fateshifter
Temporal Trespass - In a deck that fills the graveyard quickly.

Also Expropriate I consider and completly different animal, its basically Blatant Thievery stapled to Time Walk and that card is insane as a finisher.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

It's really more like a 5-<number of mana sources you have> cost, so if you can make ten mana in a turn you functionally are getting an extra 5 out of the deal, since you cast time warp then can spend 5 mana, then take your next turn.

edit:

I should add that I believe time warps should be banned for poor interaction with the multiplayer format for a variety of reasons:

* They are 300% as good as they are in single player, where you are essentially causing 3 people to skip turns relative to you
* They are monopolizing from a game time perspective which is the cardinal sin. The more time you spend as active player the more likely an effect is to be problematic.
* They can only be interacted with via counterspells which is already an enormous problem in the format for many effects

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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
There are a few hate cards to stop extra turns but they are literally horrible cards that do almost nothing else.
Stranglehold is a rather useful anti-extra turns card. I find the anti-search part of it to be way more relevant most of the time but it is certainly pretty playable.

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Post by plushpenguin » 2 years ago

If it resolves, they literally refund every resource expended on them, so they are most certainly not deckbuilding traps.

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Post by umtiger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I should add that I believe time warps should be banned for poor interaction with the multiplayer format for a variety of reasons:

* They are 300% as good as they are in single player, where you are essentially causing 3 people to skip turns relative to you
* They are monopolizing from a game time perspective which is the cardinal sin. The more time you spend as active player the more likely an effect is to be problematic.
* They can only be interacted with via counterspells which is already an enormous problem in the format for many effects
I don't agree with your premise of "interacting poorly with the format." A card like Serra Ascendant is something that interacts poorly. Time Warp is an extra turn as intended for in every format.

I also disagree every point you bring up:
1.) If anything, your extra turn is only 33% as effective because you have more opponents to fight. It only feels like Time Warp is better in EDH because everyone build and plays for 40 life. Boards stall and clutter much more in EDH than standard. Time Warp was hyped up big when Tempest released. Obviously it's used more in EDH, you can do more with Time Warp in EDH bc you can do more in edh period.

2.) If I use a time warp mainly for an extra combat, and my opponent slow plays as they decide their blocks, who is really monopolizing time?

3.) Stranglehold, Seedtime…but sure blue has counterspells. But you can interact without the stack, by removing or hindering what your opponent was going to mainly use their extra turn on.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

umtiger wrote:
2 years ago
1.) If anything, your extra turn is only 33% as effective because you have more opponents to fight.
Lol what a hot take. All cards are 1/3 as good in commander :rofl:

(I hope it's obvious why this logic makes zero sense)

btw wtf does Seedtime do vs extra turns? Unless it's nexus and they're casting it on your turn.

Incidentally nexus is being criminally underrated in this thread.
1) It literally just wins you the game without any support if you draw/mill your deck
2) instant-speed is a big deal since you can have 2 complete back-to-back turns with full mana, enabling stuff like board wipe turn into board presence turn, or fully-productive turn into keep-up-countermagic-mana turn.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

umtiger wrote:
2 years ago
I don't agree with your premise of "interacting poorly with the format." A card like Serra Ascendant is something that interacts poorly. Time Warp is an extra turn as intended for in every format.

I also disagree every point you bring up:
1.) If anything, your extra turn is only 33% as effective because you have more opponents to fight. It only feels like Time Warp is better in EDH because everyone build and plays for 40 life. Boards stall and clutter much more in EDH than standard. Time Warp was hyped up big when Tempest released. Obviously it's used more in EDH, you can do more with Time Warp in EDH bc you can do more in edh period.

2.) If I use a time warp mainly for an extra combat, and my opponent slow plays as they decide their blocks, who is really monopolizing time?

3.) Stranglehold, Seedtime…but sure blue has counterspells. But you can interact without the stack, by removing or hindering what your opponent was going to mainly use their extra turn on.
You're fine to disagree; there're a lot of ways to look at it. You can say well I have to kill 3 people so it's less effective. Unfortunately I do not think that is how reality works in commander; almost every deck is building toward some kind of critical mass, so an extra turn often just lets you get to the end first.

I really do not understand your point about your opponent slow playing during blocks; if you have an opponent who slowplays you call them out. Players who play time warp just by definition are going to be active player for more time. Not only are they literally taking an extra turn they're taking an extra turn that is one turn more developed from a mana perspective which is a turn that is going to take longer.

(which brings to mind another point which is that mid to late game turns are immensely more impactful than early turns)

Seedtime does nothing against time walks. you can only play it during your turn. Stranglehold is literally the only decent card that interacts and it's 95% used for its hate on tutors and splash damages turns at best.

You can interact with the stuff on their board, sure, I guess, but there're a lot of things you literally cannot interact with (their additional draw step, additional untap, upkeep, land drop, combat step, etc.). But that's quite a lot weaker than denying them the extra turn. If you look at the worst nightmare of any extra turn spell player it's getting their spell Counterspell'd and being blown out tempo-wise. It's really hard to out-tempo a spell that generates 5 mana when you cast it by letting it resolve and then killing what they do.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Lol what a hot take. All cards are 1/3 as good in commander

(I hope it's obvious why this logic makes zero sense)
Lots of people think this, it's why sweepers were so popular for so long because "1 for 1 removal is 3 for 1'ing yourself"

but yeah it makes no sense for a huge number of reasons that almost deserve their own thread. :P

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Post by Dunharrow » 2 years ago

discussion aside I wish they made more 'target player skips a turn' and fewer 'take an extra turn'. In 1v1 it is the same, but in multiplayer an extra turn is so much more powerful it's nuts.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
discussion aside I wish they made more 'target player skips a turn' and fewer 'take an extra turn'. In 1v1 it is the same, but in multiplayer an extra turn is so much more powerful it's nuts.
Apparently, the original wording for Time Walk was "Target player loses next turn". It was errata'd due to it being a bit too strong, hence the current wording.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

No, just one sounds nicer, but they're the same in 1v1. Except targeting can be stopped with Ivory Mask.

I'd say no, an extra untap, land drop, draw, whatever you do during your upkeep, and combat.

However, Time Stretch is a trap because by the time you get ten mana (or thirteen if you want to Mirari it), you could've just gone infinite. I'd argue Lighthouse Chronologist is just boltbait.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Expropriate is the most miserable card on the format, its like they hand picked the two most unfun mechanics in EDH and decided stampling it together would be a good design. I used to play it and I cringe on it now

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
discussion aside I wish they made more 'target player skips a turn' and fewer 'take an extra turn'. In 1v1 it is the same, but in multiplayer an extra turn is so much more powerful it's nuts.
A 5 mana sorcery "target player skips their next turn" would be unbelievably bad though. Idk how much that effect would have to cost, but probably like...1 mana maybe (which would obviously be incredibly busted in other formats)? And it would be extremely miserable to be the person who got turn-skipped. I don't really think there's any satisfying way to "fix" extra turns besides just...stop printing the stupid things, please.
hyalopterouslemur wrote:
2 years ago
However, Time Stretch is a trap because by the time you get ten mana (or thirteen if you want to Mirari it), you could've just gone infinite.
This is fallacious because it assumes that everyone is jamming reliable infinites in their decks. Sure, anyone COULD have a reliable T4 goldfish win, but that takes a lot of intentionality towards high deck power, which most players aren't interested in. Time Stretch takes a lot less intentionality since all you need is to decide to run a single card. It's way easier and more likely for someone to see a big splashy bomb (that happens to be miserable) and jam it into their deck than it is for someone to copy down a cEDH deck card for card. The fact that more powerful things exist in the format doesn't make less-powerful things unproblematic.

Incidentally, I played chronologist semi-recently and that card is misery incarnate lol. Sure, people might try to kill it but you're playing mono-blue, you've got infinity counterspells and more draw and untaps than the rest of the table combined. It's pretty hard to lose.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
This is fallacious because it assumes that everyone is jamming reliable infinites in their decks. Sure, anyone COULD have a reliable T4 goldfish win, but that takes a lot of intentionality towards high deck power, which most players aren't interested in.
it also assumes that you've got a stack based infinite that can't be interacted with; Time Stretch asks for a counterspell only, most commonly played infinite combos are vulnerable to creature or artifact interaction these days unless you're going ridiculously hard.

There aren't really that many stack based combos that are any good and certainly not many that come in the form of a single card :P (Firemind's Foresight and Enter the Infinite are the only two I can think of and both are ultimately more limited in application than stretch).

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

IMO, most extra turn cards are 'just right'. As others have said, 'Free Explore' is an acceptable floor. Extra attack step is also pretty exciting. Functional Haste is an okay thing, too.

But, like, consider: if extra turns aren't "worth it" are extra attack steps?

I think if you find yourself playing Time Warp as 'Free Explore' frequently, you might need to rethink the deck it's in. If you can't consistently leverage an extra turn for anything significant, what are you even doing on your regular turns?

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UnfulfilledDesires
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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 2 years ago

Ruiner wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
There are a few hate cards to stop extra turns but they are literally horrible cards that do almost nothing else.
Stranglehold is a rather useful anti-extra turns card. I find the anti-search part of it to be way more relevant most of the time but it is certainly pretty playable.
Ugin's Nexus is the only other card that hates on extra turns as far as I know, & it's not horrible either as long as you have ways to sacrifice it.

During one game years ago, I forgot about an opponent's Stranglehold & cast an extra-turn spell. The opponent forgot too & countered. Good times.

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