Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance and Approach of the Second Sun

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LightningHelix
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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

For reference,

Felidar Sovereign
Test of Endurance
Approach of the Second Sun

Are these cards even worth including? Felidar and Test are definetly for lifegain decks at least. but the fact you have to wait a whole turn around the table unless you flash them in a la Vedalken Orrery or similar cards the whole table has a chance to deal with them. Do people tend to actually win with them in semi-competitive metas?

As for Approach of the Second Sun I could see it be good in a deck such as cycling that draws a butt load of cards, but you have to cast a 7-mana sorcery...twice, which seems really bad and easy to disrupt.

Thoughts?

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Approach is only good with blue imho. It's trash tier if you can't defend it with counters. Plus it's real good with remand.

I don't like test or sovereign. Just kill the table. Lifegain decks can just play Heliod ballista and archangel of thune and whatever to go over the top.

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LightningHelix
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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Approach is only good with blue imho. It's trash tier if you can't defend it with counters. Plus it's real good with remand.

I don't like test or sovereign. Just kill the table. Lifegain decks can just play Heliod ballista and archangel of thune and whatever to go over the top.
Follow-up question in that case, could approach ever be better in blue decks than Laboratory Maniac Thassa's Oracle or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries ? I'm thinking blue decks that approach would be good in, would probably be better of with one of these, since they are easier to get back and easier to protect due to the lower CMC.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

LightningHelix wrote:
2 years ago
Follow-up question in that case, could approach ever be better in blue decks than Laboratory Maniac Thassa's Oracle or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries ? I'm thinking blue decks that approach would be good in, would probably be better of with one of these, since they are easier to get back and easier to protect due to the lower CMC.
Seems like a different metric to me. It's not as easy to draw through your entire library (albeit not difficult either). Approach more benefits from topdeck manipulation, like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign, Mystic Sanctuary, Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack and such, that Lab Man and Oracle really just don't any special synergy with.

re the other two, honestly if you're playing around with life totals and want a win con, Aetherflux Reservoir or Bolas's Citadel are the strongest options for you.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Well oracle wincon is the best in the game. But approach has the beauty of being a single card with no bad cards you really have to play.

I would generally say that approach is a lot more fair than the various oracle combos that usually require black anyway. So in an azorius control deck approach is going to be the jam, certainly better than ever drawing leveler lol.

I don't usually think about what is the best so much as what creates the texture of game I want. All things considered dramatic scepter, oracle, or comboing with your commander beat almost everything.. but approach does have the value of extreme slot economy and no dud synergy pieces.

I am not a giant fan of approach but I can see the appeal. I tend to prefer synergistic combos that play with my theme (e.g. Heliod ballista in lifegain or phyrexian altar gravecrawler in aristocrats).

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Approach is fearsome control wincon. With some good draw and counters, it can easily knock out a table that can't sufficiently interact on the stack. It'll draw some significant fire after first resolution though; people will totally let you pay 7 for 7 life and then do their damnest to kill you before the second cast. Even so, my results with it were solid back when I was an esper control junkie.

As for test of endurance and felidar sovereign, I've actually never seen anyone win with one ever. People either kill them on sight or put a concerted effort into knocking their controller to safer, lower life total ime. I'd say they're probably too "on board" to be truly effective as wincons in spite of their raw potential.
Last edited by TheAmericanSpirit 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

LightningHelix wrote:
2 years ago
As for Approach of the Second Sun I could see it be good in a deck such as cycling that draws a butt load of cards, but you have to cast a 7-mana sorcery...twice, which seems really bad and easy to disrupt.
There's a person in my playgroup who plays a group-hug deck with Approach, plays people off against each other until it's 1v1, and then just spends the rest of his control mechanisms to cast Approach twice and win the game.

It's unbelievably irritating that the group hasn't caught on that it happens every time.

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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

So it seems there's some support for Approach of the Second Sun in UW/x decks but for lifegain decks there are better options than Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance.

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

LightningHelix wrote:
2 years ago
So it seems there's some support for Approach of the Second Sun in UW/x decks but for lifegain decks there are better options than Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance.
I think for Sovereign/Endurance, other players will concentrate on dunking you before they can trigger (unless you surprise flash them in on someone's end step and say "oops I win!"). They're also subject to more interaction than Approach.

Approach feels fair-ish. It's a tall order between the mana cost and the fact that it's 7 cards down, but it's not so fragile that you need to have a permanent that could be answered on the battlefield, or a specific life total that can be denied.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

It is almost never a good idea to pin a target on your back and say "you have one turn to kill me, everyone " it rarely works out. That's really the issue with those lifegain wins. That and they do nothing alone.

I kinda like that angel that kills people when you hit them tho

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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

I've tried Felidar Sovereign in a few decks and it may even still be rattling around in Heliod and/or the Cat Tribal deck, but it's definitely replacement level. It's extremely fragile, and not even that awesome for its cost when Sun Titan exists as the de facto best top-end for a white deck. Heck, in Cats I'd say its worse than Phantom Nishoba as far as big dumb lifelink beaters go. It looks like it should be format-warping, but there's tons of outs to it - kill the cat, combo-kill you, even just zap you off 40 life somehow. So if you actually win with it, you were probably so far ahead that any random six drop was gonna win the game for you.

Test of Endurance is a scooch better, because even though the life commitment is higher it comes down two turns earlier and is much harder to interact with (Red can barely touch it, and Blue and Black don't have a ton of outs to it either if it makes it onto the table). I've still never played it, because a lot of what I said applies to Felidar Sovereign and the added pros to Test don't outweigh the general cons of these effects (they make you public enemy number one so you either die playing them or they were win-more door shutters), and it does have a few cons of its own (50 is 10 more than starting life; Sovereign at least blocks and even fuels you so it can legitimately protect your life total from raw aggression ending the dream whereas Test just sits there).

Approach of the Second Sun is the best of these effects. I also run it nowhere but can at least envision the durdliest of WUx decks jamming it as a wincon. As others have said, blue is mandatory to protect your casting of it, recur it if it gets milled/discarded/countered first by using stuff like Archaeomancer or Mystic Sanctuary, engage in shenanigans of your own with Remand and Memory Lapse, or dig faster to it with draw/scry effects.

EDIT: The printing of Aetherflux Reservoir and the Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista/Triskelion/Monoskelion infinite combo also pushes these out of most lifegain decks as wincons for me, as those are just stronger even if they don't instantly win you the game and have more resilient individual pieces.

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Post by Dragoon » 2 years ago

I actually like Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance (as well as other similar upkeep wincons such as Simic Ascendancy). They're a reasonable and fair plan B (or C). They only take one slot in your deck and give you a chance to win. If they are dealt with, it's no big deal, you still have your main strategy going. The table has a whole turn to deal with them, unlike combos. You don't need a blue player at the table to counter it, unlike Approach of the Second Sun. I've sometimes won with them. I've also seen a cute play a few years back when the player cast Felidar Sovereign, then Oblivion Ring targeting it and ended up casting Aura of Silence, ready to pop the O-ring right before his turn.

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Post by brainface » 2 years ago

I ran Test of Endurance in patron of the kitsune. It was... a very bad theme deck, but the terrible threat level of the deck meant I could play it and not be just slaughtered, so it was pretty easy to just drop it and continue on trying to swing in the red zone.

I won a four hour game with it against some turtley decks once and got to... say... I won a test of endurance? I don't know if it gets better than that. \o/

Edit: In further jank, it's relatively hard to flash test/wincat into play before your upkeep, but fairly easy for white to gain life at instant speed, potentially even oodles. That was my general strategy with test.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I remember an amusing win happening from a Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire player (who was just before me in turn order, and everyone was basically tapped out) attacking my lifegain deck when I was at 60 or so. In response to the trigger, I cast Enlightened Tutor.

Wheeeeee xD

But most upkeep trigger wins aren't that good. Second sun I think is a pretty bad include either way - either you win because you're locking down the table, yawn, or you lose because people beat the snot out of you. Either way it's a bit of an ultimatum and I don't think either experience is likely to be fun tbh.
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I remember an amusing win happening from a Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire player (who was just before me in turn order, and everyone was basically tapped out) attacking my lifegain deck when I was at 60 or so. In response to the trigger, I cast Enlightened Tutor.

Wheeeeee xD

But most upkeep trigger wins aren't that good. Second sun I think is a pretty bad include either way - either you win because you're locking down the table, yawn, or you lose because people beat the snot out of you. Either way it's a bit of an ultimatum and I don't think either experience is likely to be fun tbh.
Or you win because you remand it to your own hand. It because you quickly scry/draw it to the top.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Also true, though equally boring.
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Post by Dragonlover » 2 years ago

I've won with Felidar a few times now, or seen someone else win with it using my deck. Approach is a bit trickier, the only times I remember casting it I think I won with something else before it came back up.

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Post by NZB2323 » 2 years ago

One of the ways you could build Ghen, Arcanum Weaver is around enchantments that say "if x happens during your upkeep, you win the game," and during your opponents end step you can discard cards with Thrill of Possibility, Academic Dispute, or Merchant of the Vale // Haggle, then activate Ghen's ability to put it into play, so during your upkeep you already have the card.
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

I find Approach of the Second Sun difficult to handle after it's 1st cast, especially if we take wheeling into consideration. Other two are permanents requiring upkeep and a certain life pt, which could be handle much more easily.

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