Doomskar Vs Wrath of God (Or a discussion of White Wraths)

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LightningHelix
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Post by LightningHelix » 1 week ago

As the title says, which of these are better?

Does the ability to split up the cost and double/triple spell on a later turn outweigh the overall greater cost?

Or alternatively, are both of these cards completely outclassed by better options?

EDIT: Changed title to "discussion of white wraths", because this is probably overall more helpful.)
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Post by pokken » 1 week ago

I'm probably an outlier but I don't like to play any creature-only wrath effects that aren't Supreme Verdict (where the uncounterable clause is incredibly important).

I would play neither. Give me Hour of Revelation or Winds of Abandon (depending on what I am trying to achieve).

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Post by LightningHelix » 1 week ago

pokken wrote:
1 week ago
I'm probably an outlier but I don't like to play any creature-only wrath effects that aren't Supreme Verdict (where the uncounterable clause is incredibly important).

I would play neither. Give me Hour of Revelation or Winds of Abandon (depending on what I am trying to achieve).
I'm kind of inclined to agree (so you are not an outlier, although I even consider Supreme Verdict slightly suspect). Pretty much why I asked, because I kind of consider Wrath of God meh, so if people thought Doomskar was even worse, I'd be inclined to agree that Doomskar has no place in any of my decks.

I think you'd have to be playing sub-10 creatures or something and even then non-creature threats are becoming a bigger deal. But maybe I'm wrong there?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

I also would suggest neither of them as I wouldn't consider either to be all that exceptional of sweepers in this format but if I had to choose one of the two, I would choose Doomskar because the likelihood of drawing either between turns 3 and 4 (which would put the advantage on Wrath of God) is incredibly narrow. Generally speaking either of these wraths being an advantage really only comes from opening handing them and assuming you will need to curve play them. I don't feel that this game often fits that situation which leads me to say neither one of these as there are stronger and more versatile wraths to be had than these two.
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Post by Mookie » 1 week ago

Similar to @pokken, I haven't been running Wrath of God for a while. That's partially because I don't have any monowhite decks though - my decks have access to board-wipes-with-upside like Time Wipe, Supreme Verdict, and Merciless Eviction,

Even in monowhite though, I'm still not sure I'd run them. Austere Command, Tragic Arrogance, Hour of Revelation, Martial Coup, Fell the Mighty, and Dusk // Dawn all offer pretty hefty upsides for the decks that can take advantage of them. They're all worse in terms of raw efficiency, but it's pretty rare for me to find myself actually wanting to kill everything. If I'm running a creature-based deck myself, killing all of my own stuff is often counterproductive, so I like to try to make my board wipes at least a bit asymmetric.

....if you're just doing a pure creatureless control deck that plans to make your boardwipes asymmetric by just not having any creatures, then I'd consider Wrath of God or Doomskar. I'd probably lean towards the latter to increase the probability of double-spelling, but it depends on how easy it is to find two spare mana to burn. If you have any cast-from-exile synergies, it obviously goes up even further in value. On the other hand, if regeneration is relevant in your meta, Wrath goes up in value. They're both pretty close though.

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Post by LightningHelix » 1 week ago

At the risk of this thread devolving into a "White Wrath" thread, I'm thinking these 10 sweepers are probably better than Wrath of God or Doomskar.

What do you guys think?


Akroma's Vengeance - Exclusively for Cycling and Planeswalker Decks.
Austere Command - The King of Flexible Sweepers
Winds of Abandon - Spot removal that doubles as Wincon for aggro decks.
Catastrophe - Dependant if your meta allows MLD, great if your ahead to seal the game and okay if your behind.
Terminus - Plays well with a lot of top manipulation, also deals with indestructible and recurrable threats
Devastating Mastery - Wrath of God but kills everything
Dusk // Dawn - Obviously need synergy but if your deck is full of 2 or less power, this should be a shoe-in
Tragic Arrogance - Probably has the best ceiling of all sweepers
Hour of Revelation - Toxic deluge equivalent to killing everything.
Ajani, Strength of the Pride - Exclusively for Lifegain decks, but is a one-sided wipe for the most common permanent types.

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Post by Ruiner » 1 week ago

I'm gonna throw out a random third option to consider. Have you thought about Rout? Same cost as Doomskar but no regeneration allowed, and the flexibility to cast it at instant speed, despite being 7 mana, can make a big difference.

In metas that run more creature heavy I think Wrath of God and Doomskar are both fine enough. Also, if your deck is running a lot of "non-creature, non-land" permanents, sometimes you will be screwed by your own "destroy all non-land permaments" style sweepers (not saying they are bad at all). Of the two, I like Wrath for the cheaper cost if not fortold and no regeneration clause.

I also think this depends on what kind of deck you are including them in, how many sweepers you want, and what colors you are running. If in blue I'd reach for Supreme Verdict first before those two due to being uncounterable. If in black, I'd probably include Merciless Eviction first.

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Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

I like the option to play Doomskar for cheaper, but, I think there are so many wraths now that I'd rather use something more final or more tailored.

I have a Shadrix Silverquill deck that could play French Vanilla wraths, but it runs Dusk // Dawn, Retribution of the Meek and Merciless Eviction because most of the creatures are low to the ground and those cards work better. In other decks, it might be different cards, but I'd almost always run Rout ahead of either Doomskar or Wrath of God.

I've had the no-regenerate clause matter (with Damnation) in recent memory, but, for the most part, I'd much rather run something that has a little more finality (Hallowed Burial, for example), gives me a little value on the side (Fumigate, has additional modes (Cleansing Nova or Austere Command) or isn't quite exactly symmetrical. Doomskar and Wrath of God don't do any of those things and are hard to justify.

I think Doomskar has some things going for it, though: Casting it for three will probably give you the first opportunity to recover, and it can be held in exile against Wheels (which are reportedly the most unhealthy thing in Commander at the time of this writing).

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Post by pokken » 1 week ago

Ruiner wrote:
1 week ago
Have you thought about Rout?
Fated Retribution is pretty dope too if you aren't running walkers :)

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Post by Ruiner » 1 week ago

pokken wrote:
1 week ago
Ruiner wrote:
1 week ago
Have you thought about Rout?
Fated Retribution is pretty dope too if you aren't running walkers :)
Oh yeah. I keep meaning to find room for that in decks to functionally have two Routs. People get caught off guard by that instant wipe, love doing that when someone thinks they have the win.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

If I were to make a list of top white wraths it would probably be:

A TIER:
  • Austere Command - Its very versatile and can avoid your own board in a lot of cases while punishing opponents.
  • Cleansing Nova - Not quite as versatile as Austere but it costs one less mana which is nice.
  • Hour of Revelation - Great for nuking the board. Its often cheap to cast which means you can often follow it up with another play after casting it.
  • Rout - Its one more mana Wrath of God but it gives you the option to flash it out. The cost for it normally is just fine but that option later in the game to interrupt someone mid action by sweeping is really good.
  • Tragic Arrogance - Every now and then this card can suck like if your opponent is playing a creature light voltron you might get stuck leaving their commander alive but man I have had so many complete blow out situations where I get to keep a great board and leave opponents with a bad mana rock and a token. This might be my favorite white sweeper.
B TIER
  • Akroma's Vengeance - In most cases I don't feel that its worth cycling this card because if that's an option its because you are in a good situation at the time which cycling this probably isn't great or you have too many sweepers in your deck. I would usually run Hour of Revelation over it with the exception possibly being when on 4 or 5 color decks where WWW might be harder to achieve.
  • Hallowed Burial - My opinion of tuck and exile sweepers these days is mostly a bit hit or miss these days. It depends a little on your meta as to if you should run these. I would generally say that indestructibility is the big question for if you need tuck or exile on your sweepers. There is the upside of being sort of graveyard hate to this too but a lot of aristocrat / reanimator decks have sac outlets which in my opinion make a lot of tuck / exile sweepers a bit less relevant.
  • Terminus - Same as above.
SITUATIONALLY
  • Elspeth, Sun's Champion - I still think this is a great sweeper mostly because most of the decks where the sweeper here is relevant all of the rest of her abilities are also fairly good. I think that some of the Retribution of the Meek effects can be too narrow in what they do but Elspeth making tokens and possibly pumping your board on top of being a sweeper who lives through sweeping is really nice.
  • Urza's Ruinous Blast - Some of the more expensive commanders like potentially Velomachus Lorehold, Akroma, Angel of Wrath can potentially use some anti token stuffs that doesn't kill your commander. Often times higher cost commanders can control the board if you can keep it to just commanders.
  • Wave of Reckoning - Its situational in that you want your commander to have more toughness than power. It also can fit some of the defender concept decks.
  • Winds of Rath - more situational to an aura build which can be kind of narrow but very good in the right deck.
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Post by LightningHelix » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
If I were to make a list of top white wraths it would probably be:

A TIER:
  • Austere Command - Its very versatile and can avoid your own board in a lot of cases while punishing opponents.
  • Cleansing Nova - Not quite as versatile as Austere but it costs one less mana which is nice.
  • Hour of Revelation - Great for nuking the board. Its often cheap to cast which means you can often follow it up with another play after casting it.
  • Rout - Its one more mana Wrath of God but it gives you the option to flash it out. The cost for it normally is just fine but that option later in the game to interrupt someone mid action by sweeping is really good.
  • Tragic Arrogance - Every now and then this card can suck like if your opponent is playing a creature light voltron you might get stuck leaving their commander alive but man I have had so many complete blow out situations where I get to keep a great board and leave opponents with a bad mana rock and a token. This might be my favorite white sweeper.
B TIER
  • Akroma's Vengeance - In most cases I don't feel that its worth cycling this card because if that's an option its because you are in a good situation at the time which cycling this probably isn't great or you have too many sweepers in your deck. I would usually run Hour of Revelation over it with the exception possibly being when on 4 or 5 color decks where WWW might be harder to achieve.
  • Hallowed Burial - My opinion of tuck and exile sweepers these days is mostly a bit hit or miss these days. It depends a little on your meta as to if you should run these. I would generally say that indestructibility is the big question for if you need tuck or exile on your sweepers. There is the upside of being sort of graveyard hate to this too but a lot of aristocrat / reanimator decks have sac outlets which in my opinion make a lot of tuck / exile sweepers a bit less relevant.
  • Terminus - Same as above.
SITUATIONALLY
  • Elspeth, Sun's Champion - I still think this is a great sweeper mostly because most of the decks where the sweeper here is relevant all of the rest of her abilities are also fairly good. I think that some of the Retribution of the Meek effects can be too narrow in what they do but Elspeth making tokens and possibly pumping your board on top of being a sweeper who lives through sweeping is really nice.
  • Urza's Ruinous Blast - Some of the more expensive commanders like potentially Velomachus Lorehold, Akroma, Angel of Wrath can potentially use some anti token stuffs that doesn't kill your commander. Often times higher cost commanders can control the board if you can keep it to just commanders.
  • Wave of Reckoning - Its situational in that you want your commander to have more toughness than power. It also can fit some of the defender concept decks.
  • Winds of Rath - more situational to an aura build which can be kind of narrow but very good in the right deck.
I like your list, its similar to mine with a few differences.

I wonder, what is your opinion on the ones on my list but not yours, as I'm curious to know if I may be overvaluing some of them.

Namely,

Winds of Abandon - A good way to end them game, but in situations you can't, perhaps Path to Exileing everything is more likely to bite you harder in the end?

Catastrophe - Perhaps overcosted Armageddon or Wrath of God is not where we want to be and we would be better off playing the 4 mana versions of whichever fits our deck better?

Devastating Mastery - Perhaps the drawback of bouncing two things and giving someone scry 2 is not worth saving 2 mana?

Dusk // Dawn - Might leave too many important creatures on our opponent's board.

Ajani, Strength of the Pride - Perhaps the condition to play the sweeper part is too inconsistent?

Just kind of thinking out in the open here :)

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

LightningHelix wrote:
1 week ago
I like your list, its similar to mine with a few differences.

I wonder, what is your opinion on the ones on my list but not yours, as I'm curious to know if I may be overvaluing some of them.

Namely,

Winds of Abandon - A good way to end them game, but in situations you can't, perhaps Path to Exileing everything is more likely to bite you harder in the end?

Catastrophe - Perhaps overcosted Armageddon or Wrath of God is not where we want to be and we would be better off playing the 4 mana versions of whichever fits our deck better?

Devastating Mastery - Perhaps the drawback of bouncing two things and giving someone scry 2 is not worth saving 2 mana?

Dusk // Dawn - Might leave too many important creatures on our opponent's board.

Ajani, Strength of the Pride - Perhaps the condition to play the sweeper part is too inconsistent?

Just kind of thinking out in the open here :)
Winds of Abandon - If you can't kill everyone in the next turn or so I think its a trap. I can think of a lot of decks that turning a bunch of tokens into basics will absolutely wreck you.

Catastrophe - I don't play MLD but if you are good with it I would say its probably fine. The issue is anyone willing to play MLD usually tends to be playing fast decks with low curves and a six mana creature wrath probably isn't great there. I don't play MLD so I am not a great resource for how good it is in tuned competitive decks but I suspect that six mana is a lot for a LD or wrath effect in that sort of meta.

Devastating Mastery - I don't really see a situation that I would be happy letting someone bounce two things out even though its a cheaper wrath. I tend to play archenemy style of commander though even though I play mostly fair decks I tune them a lot. It means that I don't want anyone to have anything ever if I can help it so while its cheaper to execute, I don't like it. If you play politics or aren't the person everyone at the table is always trying to kill it might be ok.

Dusk // Dawn - Personally I have found it to be clunky and hard for Dawn to really be all that good. Most decks have a hard time building in a way that Dawn is going to be useful. Lots of decks that run low size creatures tend to be token decks and the fact that you have to cast Dusk before Dawn as well as the fact that Dawn puts them back to hand where you have to cast them again have all been just awkward in my experience.

Ajani, Strength of the Pride - ohhhh yea I forgot about him. I would list him under situational based on decks that gain a bunch of life. He is good in the right deck but I think its also very situational.
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Post by pokken » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Winds of Abandon - If you can't kill everyone in the next turn or so I think its a trap. I can think of a lot of decks that turning a bunch of tokens into basics will absolutely wreck you.
My win rate post winds is 95% :0 19/20 games give or take.

Although more than once I cast it 2+ times thanks to the old Archaeomancer lock.

People sleep hard on that card. It's the best white sweeper after Hour for me.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

pokken wrote:
1 week ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Winds of Abandon - If you can't kill everyone in the next turn or so I think its a trap. I can think of a lot of decks that turning a bunch of tokens into basics will absolutely wreck you.
My win rate post winds is 95% :0 19/20 games give or take.

Although more than once I cast it 2+ times thanks to the old Archaeomancer lock.

People sleep hard on that card. It's the best white sweeper after Hour for me.
I get that it "can" function similarly to a Cyclonic Rift in some situations but that seems heavily dependent on having some sort of boardstate that could represent lethal to one or more players ignoring current blockers. Don't get my wrong in saying Cyc Rift is good and all but if you have to defend yourself from tokens with a wrath that seems like an awfully rough downside to it. It sounds like you aren't using it like a wrath but more like a weird evasion finisher to me. You could just as easily cast the new Serra's Emissary on creatures if you are just looking for evasion.

I guess what I am saying here is it doesn't even sound like a sweeper what you are describing but instead an evasion / finisher like you would an Overrun type effect. If you need to defensively sweep that sounds really bad.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
pokken wrote:
1 week ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Winds of Abandon - If you can't kill everyone in the next turn or so I think its a trap. I can think of a lot of decks that turning a bunch of tokens into basics will absolutely wreck you.
My win rate post winds is 95% :0 19/20 games give or take.

Although more than once I cast it 2+ times thanks to the old Archaeomancer lock.

People sleep hard on that card. It's the best white sweeper after Hour for me.
I get that it "can" function similarly to a Cyclonic Rift in some situations but that seems heavily dependent on having some sort of boardstate that could represent lethal to one or more players ignoring current blockers. Don't get my wrong in saying Cyc Rift is good and all but if you have to defend yourself from tokens with a wrath that seems like an awfully rough downside to it. It sounds like you aren't using it like a wrath but more like a weird evasion finisher to me. You could just as easily cast the new Serra's Emissary on creatures if you are just looking for evasion.

I guess what I am saying here is it doesn't even sound like a sweeper what you are describing but instead an evasion / finisher like you would an Overrun type effect. If you need to defensively sweep that sounds really bad.
Nowhere in Pokken's description did they talk about it like a weird evasion finisher? Especially when they're explicitly using it more than once? I think you're vastly overestimating the drawback of ramp. Most multicolored decks have a limited number of basics to fetch in the first place, and pretty much all decks start to experience diminishing returns on ramp at a certain point, especially when it comes at the cost of a significant number of cards.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 week ago

I feel a lot of wipes that show up these days are asymmetric in one way or another. It's typically worth coughing up a bit of extra mana to preserve your board state.

I can confirm Winds of Abandon is insane. Asymmetric exile is no slouch, and while some decks will appreciate the ramp and not care about the pieces lost, quite often you can catch some relevant pieces and get rid of them for good. I've had graveyard happy decks completely forego my Path offer and just sac their whole board to avoid losing it forever. The one time it properly bit me was when Ghave untapped, replayed the commander and dropped in Skullclamp. I spent quite a while in 2019 pondering its inclusion in a deck of mine, and pokken was one of the people involved whose opinions swayed me to give it a try. I considered it for a second deck since, but it didn't fit my sequencing too well there.

I'm surprised there's no love for Slaughter the Strong. That card is brutal if you've got a commander small enough to live through it, possibly with a utility piece or two. The sacrifice also turns off some of the wipe jukes that exist. I don't play Tragic Arrogance, but it's a card with presence in my group. It's a very strong effect, but one that can also be used politically if desired. Placing all the choices in your hands is a wonderful thing. True, sometimes you want to get rid of a singleton enchantment or something and this won't let you. Still good though. Asymmetry! For a while I believed Rout to be one of the best wipes in the format, as I failed to account for the fact my commander is a mana sink, but holding up seven mana is no slouch.
 
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Post by LightningHelix » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
pokken wrote:
1 week ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Winds of Abandon - If you can't kill everyone in the next turn or so I think its a trap. I can think of a lot of decks that turning a bunch of tokens into basics will absolutely wreck you.
My win rate post winds is 95% :0 19/20 games give or take.

Although more than once I cast it 2+ times thanks to the old Archaeomancer lock.

People sleep hard on that card. It's the best white sweeper after Hour for me.
I get that it "can" function similarly to a Cyclonic Rift in some situations but that seems heavily dependent on having some sort of boardstate that could represent lethal to one or more players ignoring current blockers. Don't get my wrong in saying Cyc Rift is good and all but if you have to defend yourself from tokens with a wrath that seems like an awfully rough downside to it. It sounds like you aren't using it like a wrath but more like a weird evasion finisher to me. You could just as easily cast the new Serra's Emissary on creatures if you are just looking for evasion.

I guess what I am saying here is it doesn't even sound like a sweeper what you are describing but instead an evasion / finisher like you would an Overrun type effect. If you need to defensively sweep that sounds really bad.
I think this is a valid point honestly, I guess the advantage is that there is less likely to be a crackback when you kill someone, unless the extra mana ramp lands up being a huge problem, which frankly is very likely. Almost makes it seem we'd be better off running Brave the Elements or something (maybe a slight exagerration but not entirely.)

Honestly this opens up a huge space for discussion, for example, is giving your opponent a land worse then letting them have a random token, odds are probably yes.

It makes me start to think that Pongify and Rapid Hybridization are generally better cards than Path to Exile depending if the exile matters or not.

I'm feeling I need to retitle this thread Comparison of White wraths or something, because I think the discussion is really heading in that direction.

@Rumpy5897 Slaughter the Strong was a card on my radar, I thought maybe it could backfire like Citywide Bust or Retribution of the Meek by leaving an opponent or two with relevant creatures. I do really like that it kills indestructible and has sacrifice triggers which matter sometimes in Aristocrats.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 week ago

To me, a big downside to doomskar is the lack of other viable foretell cards. Whenever someone foretells anything, if they're white doomskar is probably the highest likelihood choice for me. So it has a way higher chance of being played around. For that reason, I'd pick WoG, although as mentioned there are stronger alternatives.

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 week ago

To me, it depends on the deck. For Captain Sisay, Urza's Ruinous Blast and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite are the best.

For Tymna the Weaver//Ravos, Soultender I play Austere Command.

Kaalia of the vast plays a whole bunch of wraths with avacyn, angel of hope.

For Ghen, Arcanum Weaver I'm eager to test out Out of Time.
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Post by pokken » 6 days ago

The way winds usually plays out is that by the time I cast it I can kill the one person who benefits enough to be a threat and then control the remaining players. Because of sanctuary and archaeomancer there's a pretty good likelihood I am going to be able to cast it again further setting people back and exiling their good cards while my board is untouched.

It is not good if you can't take some advantage of preserving your board state but man exiling things is huge.

Being spellseeker target is also bananas in ephara ofc.

It's been nonstop great for me. I think people are pretty caught up in theory and overthinking how good the ramp is. It's never once bitten me.

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Post by LightningHelix » 6 days ago

Anybody have success with Slaughter the Strong as Rumpy suggested? I'm kind of curious why it isn't run more.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 6 days ago

Asymmetry is almost always conditional. The idea is for you to go for options that will more likely benefit you more than others. Yes, it is theoretically possible that your foes will be able to sneak stuff under Slaughter the Strong, but if you can guaranteed make good use of it then that's a point in its favour. Don't "what if" super hard - I didn't run Ulvenwald Tracker in my Patron of the Orochi, despite having a 7-power commander to throw into things, because at some point early in the deck's life I figured that there are creatures bigger than that that this won't kill, ergo it's not worth the slot. There's some practical point where you're likely to be able to get ahead, and you need to figure out whether you make that mark. As perpetual "what if" would lead me to not running Extinguish All Hope in Daxos as my opponents could technically have enchantment creatures :P
 
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Post by LightningHelix » 6 days ago

So, I think I've gotten some good takeaways from the discussion, in terms of deck building philosophy

1) Sweepers are worth playing when they have some extra utility over Wrath of God or if they can be cast at instant speed even if they cost a bit more mana.

2) Outside of that look for sweepers that can be made to be more one-sided.

3) The cost is a bit secondary (within reason, maybe 7 CMC maximum?)

With that said, I think I can update my list of playable white sweepers as follows:

Staples:

Tragic Arrogance
Hour of Revelation
Austere Command
Cleansing Nova
Rout
Fated Retribution ? - Seems comparible to Rout, except it gets planeswalkers too, but dosen't have the backup option to cast for 5 in a pinch.

Good with Synergy:

Terminus - Can be instant speed and 1 mana in a deck full of library manipulation
Ajani, Strength of the Pride - 4 cmc one sided sweeper in lifegain decks
Slaughter the Strong - Good if you have a bunch of little value guys, such as an Aristocrats deck
Retribution of the Meek - Good in tokens
Citywide Bust - Good in tokens
Akroma's Vengeance - Cycling utility might matter in decks like Gavi, Nest Warden , one-sided in superfriends decks.
Winds of Abandon - One-sided sweeper that's good if your a beatdown type deck, to set-up for a win.
Mass Calcify ? - Possibly a good mono-white option.
Winds of Rath - If auras are your thing, this is one-sided.

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 6 days ago

These days, I've moved away from the old mindset of "every deck gets 5 boardwipes" to "decks get at least one boardwipe, but don't necessarily need more especially if they are creature heavy, and where possible I'll pay more to have an easier time breaking the symmetry of those boardwipes".

Even in the earliest go of it though, I tended to prefer Austere Command to other Wrath effects for that chance to break symmetry. It remains one of my go-tos. I own five each of WoG and Austere Command, but my binder still has some WoGs while all the Commands are currently in use. For that same reason I play Dusk // Dawn, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Tragic Arrogance a lot too.

When I am going uber-control heavy I prefer the added power and possibly lower cost of Hour of Revelation and Devastating Mastery as well as the possible instant speed of Rout, so those are the staples instead.

All THAT being said, if I build a deck and we've got room for one more wrath it's the iconic Wrath of God all day every day. I don't think the bonus of Foretell is worth it outside of specifically decks like Ranar or Vega trying to cast spells from elsewhere than hand -if I need even MOAR like in Pheldagriff, I'm looking at Day of Judgement for mana efficiency or Cleansing Nova and Akroma's Vengeance for raw power or Fated Retribution for instant speed next.

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