Sheldon's throwaway comment about banning wheels

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

FenrirRex wrote:
2 years ago
I am idly curious, how often are people seeing the Hullbreachers and Narsets of the world played alongside wheels? Like, in order, I see wheels employed as: 1.) Triggers for Nekusar, the Mindrazer or The Locust God cards, 2.) Graveyard mechanic enablers, 3.) Hand refills for various flavors of red/boros, 4.) Locks with the aforementioned Hullbreacher and friends. The locks I see the least, admittedly because my playgroups value the overall play experience, and they're the only problematic interaction with wheels as best as I can tell.
My group is careful to tiptoe around using Hullbreacher/Narset with wheels. None of us seem to want to play wheelbait decks (like Nekusar) and we rarely use it as draw for boros/red.

But, we totally did it. When WAR Narset came out, I absolutely played Commit // Memory with Narset in a game or two, and that was the tipping point for us to say "maybe we shouldn't do this".

It ruined a couple of games, but this is a carefully cultivated casual group. I would expect that it would appear with a random player at a game store.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
The problem with the wheel combos is more that both sides of the combos are good cards. It's not like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite where the cards are not amazing on their own (pretty overcosted or ineffectual).

Hullbreacher is a windmill slam of a card on its own, and Wheel of Fortune and Time Spiral can also be as well (especially if you dump your hand to ramp then wheel when it's a bonus for you but not helping anyone else).

So you get to play a virtually game ending combo that is made up of all great cards *that people are incentivized to play independently anyway*. So once you have Hullbreacher might as well toss a wheel in there as a wincon, why not?
I totally agree. The issue is that both cards involved are both incredibly powerful on their own when not combined and they are both relatively cheap. The fact that Hellbreacher has flash means that staggering the two effects together can happen much earlier without giving much time to respond to them as well.

Narset on the other hand feels like a lot less powerful of a card on her own. She has to be cast at sorcery speed and is vulnerable to being attacked if you don't immediately pair her with a wheel followed.

In my mind, I think that Hullbreacher is at the top of the offensive list of the cards we are discussing here and then I would look at possibly Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Windfall after Hullbreacher is gone but I don't think I would go anywhere beyond those four cards as a lot of the issue is just the performance for the mana sort of a deal.
Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
1) Where's the line? Obviously first up is Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Windfall, and it's easy enough from there to say that Time Spiral and Memory Jar are a bit over the line too. But that still leaves lots of "wheels" - do you ban the next best ones, like Reforge the Soul, Wheel of Misfortune, Time Reversal, and Echo of Eons? What about the stuff that takes a lot more set-up or is easier to interact with, like Jace's Archivist, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Magus of the Wheel, Commit // Memory, and Wheel of Fate? What about wheel-adjacent cards that can't refuel a combo deck like the above but work with the elephants in the room, like Molten Psyche, Burning Inquiry, Winds of Change, Wheel and Deal and Dark Deal? We're not even done yet - ban all those and there are still "bad" wheel-y effects like Khorvath's Fury, Dragon Mage, Collective Defiance, Emergency Powers, and Incendiary Command. For "consistency" do they also need to get the axe?
Big agree on Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Windfall being the culprits that actually break wheels. Their low mana cost and ability to go to max hand size regardless of how many you had is what makes them appealing in this format.

Those other like 10ish cards you mentioned are far from anything I would say is at risk of breaking anything.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Time Spiral is the still the best wheel, and Echo of Eons is extremely problematic by virtue of providing Intuition packages that guarantee a thief/breach-wheel, :P

I think people seriously sleep on Notion Thief - that card is toxic as hell. Being Dimir is why it doesn't get as much attention I think, and being around for so long. It's been toxic as hell long before hullbreacher though.

Hullbreacher is the #1 problem candidate in my opinion though being a mono blue autoinclude - ban that first and see what happens.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
So thinking on this again. Is the issue with Wheel + Hullbreacher (or other) that they cause resource imbalance AND do not end the game? Kinda like Armageddon doesn't end the game on the spot?
Exactly. And while 'geddon tends to be used mostly in aggro decks to secure a win after getting far ahead on board, the people who play wheel locks in my experience are the sort of people who just want to play solitaire in front of an audience. 'Geddon gets misused by griefers from time to time, and can be used by GWx versions of Loam.dec to do similar masturbatory solitaire BS, but I've never seen a Loam deck run it (or run white, for that matter) in the wild.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Time Spiral is the still the best wheel, and Echo of Eons is extremely problematic by virtue of providing Intuition packages that guarantee a thief/breach-wheel, :P

I think people seriously sleep on Notion Thief - that card is toxic as hell. Being Dimir is why it doesn't get as much attention I think, and being around for so long. It's been toxic as hell long before hullbreacher though.

Hullbreacher is the #1 problem candidate in my opinion though being a mono blue autoinclude - ban that first and see what happens.
Time Spiral - Its a super good card but its higher mana cost makes it a lot harder to capitalize on a non flash wheel enabler and follow it up with Time Spiral. I agree it might be one of the best wheels but it does a really poor job of being played after a payoff like Narset or Nekusar due to its higher cost. I think its one of the best when just cast for its effect but a lot of this talk is about the issue of pairing a wheel with something to make it better and I think Time Spiral becomes somewhat fair in that its harder to make it better (except that Hullbreacher has flash but I was advocating starting by banning that).

Echo of Eons - I think even with Intuition being a card I think that this is fine. I would totally give people Echo of Eons in a lot of cases as its really not great when cast from hand. I think that getting this card to graveyard adds enough extra work that I am not too worried about it. You need to get it to graveyard first and then you get literally an extra setup Wheel of Fortune (ok it also is shuffle instead of discard). I think I am ok with that.

Notion Thief - Costing one more mana does make it harder to ambush people with and being confined to UBX decks makes it a lot less seen just given that as well. I agree that it is often overlooked but I also think that its extra needs do make it a lot more narrow than Hullbreacher.
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
I am quite surprised by Sheldon's take. Normally, wheels are actually a lot weaker in multiplayer since you give cards to multiple opponents.
That would've been true in the past, but these days most people actively create situations where they'd benefit the most from wheels, such as with a Nekusar, the Mindrazer or Hullbreacher, and now mono-black.

Not to mention, there's almost no way for non-blue players to deal with wheel effect either, is there? I presume instead of banning wheels, we can hope that WotC make cards that prevent wheels effects, maybe a white card that either hinders it altogether or "phase out" the cards in hand till next turn, that kind of thing.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
I am quite surprised by Sheldon's take. Normally, wheels are actually a lot weaker in multiplayer since you give cards to multiple opponents.
That would've been true in the past, but these days most people actively create situations where they'd benefit the most from wheels, such as with a Nekusar, the Mindrazer or Hullbreacher, and now mono-black.

Not to mention, there's almost no way for non-blue players to deal with wheel effect either, is there? I presume instead of banning wheels, we can hope that WotC make cards that prevent wheels effects, maybe a white card that either hinders it altogether or "phase out" the cards in hand till next turn, that kind of thing.
Ignorant Bliss is a card. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone play it but... its a thing lol.
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Post by Dragoon » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Not to mention, there's almost no way for non-blue players to deal with wheel effect either, is there? I presume instead of banning wheels, we can hope that WotC make cards that prevent wheels effects, maybe a white card that either hinders it altogether or "phase out" the cards in hand till next turn, that kind of thing.
Ignorant Bliss is a card. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone play it but... its a thing lol.
I have a friend who plays it in a wheel/discard deck.

Library of Leng can also kind of negate wheels for yourself?

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Dragoon wrote:
2 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Not to mention, there's almost no way for non-blue players to deal with wheel effect either, is there? I presume instead of banning wheels, we can hope that WotC make cards that prevent wheels effects, maybe a white card that either hinders it altogether or "phase out" the cards in hand till next turn, that kind of thing.
Ignorant Bliss is a card. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone play it but... its a thing lol.
Library of Leng kind of negates wheels for yourself?
There's Obstinate Familiar too. I don't know why you'd play it though, it's quite bad. Honestly, I actually don't think there's anything specific out there to combat the wheel effect in every aspect. There's draw modifiers like Underrealm Lich that negate the Hullbreacher effect, but there's also not a lot of them that are really worth playing.

I'm surprised Xyris, the Writhing Storm hasn't been discussed more. I saw him mentioned once earlier by Hawk as one that gets nerfed by wheel bans. I think it loses a lot of power, where currently it can end games on like T5 pretty easily, but given it fuels draw itself, I think it still holds up a lot better than Nekusar, the Mindrazer would in the case of any bans.
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Post by Treamayne » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
I am quite surprised by Sheldon's take. Normally, wheels are actually a lot weaker in multiplayer since you give cards to multiple opponents.
That would've been true in the past, but these days most people actively create situations where they'd benefit the most from wheels, such as with a Nekusar, the Mindrazer or Hullbreacher, and now mono-black.

Not to mention, there's almost no way for non-blue players to deal with wheel effect either, is there? I presume instead of banning wheels, we can hope that WotC make cards that prevent wheels effects, maybe a white card that either hinders it altogether or "phase out" the cards in hand till next turn, that kind of thing.
Ignorant Bliss is a card. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone play it but... its a thing lol.
My mono-brown deck plays Bottled Cloister, which has protected me from some wheel shenanigans.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
If they were bad cards it wouldn't be enough to just have lost of options, at least in my opinion. There're tons of various infinite combos with persist creatures but they're not problematic because Kitchen Finks is not a very good card in commander, but Wheel of Fortune and Hullbreacher are.

edit: I'd add that it's also a bit problematic with wheels that Hullbreacher (and Notion Thief ) can be one card combos because of how good wheels are independently. People play wheels and then accidentally deliver coop combos to the hullbreacher/notion thief player.
Afaik all the persist combos require 3 pieces instead of 2 - that's a pretty significant difference. That said, there's a guy at my LGS who plays a persist combo deck and it's really tedious to play against (which is too bad, he's a really nice guy but his deck is just the worst).

I think it's a combination of the two things (the cards being good, or at least popular, non-comboed, and being a combo with flexible elements) though. I think combo players lean more on the latter, whereas less-combo-oriented players lean on the former.
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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

I think the stuff like Narset, Parter of Veils is more of the problem than the wheels themselves. And they would be great cards if they instead checked the source of the carddraw instead of all card draw.

Wheels on their own can be fun and have unique uses. For the longest time I kept Runehorn Hellkite and other wheel cards in my Etali, Primal Storm deck because I could use it as incentive to get a free attack by basically asking the table who would let me attack them with Etali, Primal Storm if I promised to use Runehorn's wheel. I also used wheels several times to mess with tutor heavy decks that took a turn to craft their hand. Finally, I have used it to fill my graveyard for Feldon of the Third Path targets.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
If they were bad cards it wouldn't be enough to just have lost of options, at least in my opinion. There're tons of various infinite combos with persist creatures but they're not problematic because Kitchen Finks is not a very good card in commander, but Wheel of Fortune and Hullbreacher are.

edit: I'd add that it's also a bit problematic with wheels that Hullbreacher (and Notion Thief ) can be one card combos because of how good wheels are independently. People play wheels and then accidentally deliver coop combos to the hullbreacher/notion thief player.
Afaik all the persist combos require 3 pieces instead of 2 - that's a pretty significant difference. That said, there's a guy at my LGS who plays a persist combo deck and it's really tedious to play against (which is too bad, he's a really nice guy but his deck is just the worst).

I think it's a combination of the two things (the cards being good, or at least popular, non-comboed, and being a combo with flexible elements) though. I think combo players lean more on the latter, whereas less-combo-oriented players lean on the former.
I wouldn't disagree that the number of effects has bearing it's just really minimal compared to card desirability.. when bad cards combo that's edh when good cards combo it's, well, dumb.

Hullbreacher being an autoinclude in every blue deck is almost the only reason we are even talking about this..although if notion thief cost 2uu I guarantee we would have been talking about it beforehand :p

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Hullbreecher is the problem. Its the best version of the effect and also creates a critical mass of the effect. There's been a dramatic uptick in wheel locks since its printing, at least from what I've seen. Before Modern Horizons, I almost only ever saw a wheel lock in wheel bait decks like Nekusar. Hullbreecher is just too good, and with being able to run both him and Narset together, and with Notion Thief as well if you add black, the consistency of the combo is just too high. When it was just Notion Thief, people weren't just throwing it in and then adding a bunch of wheels. You'd see it occasionally, but outside of decks that already wanted a ton of wheels it was rare. It required some commitment to jam enough wheels into your deck to make it work once you landed Thief, and then those would only really pay off if you got him. Now with three options, both of which are cheaper than Thief and mono blue, its much easier to build a package around them, as your 3x as likely to just draw into one of them naturally. When it was Thief and Narset together, that started to show up more, but Hullbreecher put it over the top, and Hullbreecher made decks without access to B able to commit to the strategy.

If wheels have become enough of a problem to warrant bans, Hullbreecher should go, then Narset. Hullbreecher because its the strongest version of the effect and the proximate cause of the current problem. Narset because she is almost only used to support wheel locks. I think Notion Thief is actually stronger than Narset, but he plays the role of a hate card better and I've seen him used fairly often enough to say he's got a purpose in the format. He's got flash to come in and ruin someone's big play, which is the key to using these fairly. Unlike Hullbreecher though, he costs an additional mana, is limited to UBx so he shows up less often, and draws cards instead of making treasure. Drawing cards is stronger than making treasure when you only draw/make a few, but once you start getting 7+ the draw runs into diminishing returns while the mana doesn't. Eventually, each additional card drawn isn't so much a resource advantage as it is card selection, because you aren't going to be able to cast everything, but each additional treasure made helps you cast all the things your drawing (I mean, your in blue, so your still drawing extra cards even though you aren't getting them from Hullbreecher).

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Disagree hard on narset but otherwise agree :).

(My logic there is that both smothering tithe and notion thief are the next worst wheel enablers and far more impactful as goodstuff that entices people to wheel)

I played cedh opus thief long before breacher and it was really only a cedh thing for the most part. Hullbreacher being mainstream is what makes the whole thing mainstream. It's a piece that normalizes behavior.

Kinda reminds me of paradox engine's normalizing effect on stupid nondeterministic storm combos in a way. It was so good it belonged in every dork and rock deck and it created these side.effect combos.

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Post by vandertroll » 2 years ago

I really don't understand what's the fuss about banning Hullbreacher.
He can always just be flashed in order to punish another player wheeling or drawing a huge amount of cards.

In the most common or ''offensive'' play he can be flashed (pay 2U) in response to your own Windfall (pay another 2U) for a total 6 mana in order to make a huge swing in the game, without anyone having a response to it. 6 cmc cards or card combos should do this imo. If you combine breacher with other wheels which are in different colors and / or more expensive (Echo of Eons etc.) it gets even more difficult to resolve both effects. I can't recall a single time that I just flashed Hullbreacher EOT or just played him and being able to have him survive for a full turn clock.

Narset, Parter of Veils doesn't have flash, can die to a myriad of effects and you'll eventually want to minus her in order to search for cards.

Wheels on their own are super fun and add an additional layer of randomness to the game.

I myself get salty many times during a game, especially when I see decks and strategies that I personally don't like, but I always look forward to facing them. On the other hand I don't have the powers of the RC platform..
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I wouldn't disagree that the number of effects has bearing it's just really minimal compared to card desirability.. when bad cards combo that's edh when good cards combo it's, well, dumb.

Hullbreacher being an autoinclude in every blue deck is almost the only reason we are even talking about this..although if notion thief cost 2uu I guarantee we would have been talking about it beforehand :p
I think I got myself a bit confused earlier - I agree that the existent popularity of wheel effects is what has made the synergy as prevalent as it is. However, if there was only 1 wheel and only 1 draw-denial card, then even if both cards were very popular it wouldn't be THAT big of an issue imo. The fact that there are quite a few of each is a crucial aspect of why it's problematic, because in addition to dramatically increasing the frequency with which both effects come together, the number of available options makes it feasible to focus around effects like wheels, which in turn increases the power of synergies like hullbreacher. If there was only one of each, it wouldn't really be worth building around. So it becomes kind of a feedback loop that makes both parts of the equation more desirable and leads to decks being more and more focused around the synergy.
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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

I do think there's something important you're all missing. To start, I think wheel effects are super fun and not at all a problem in a vacuum. But their impact is pushed from two directions: from one side, the asymmetrical punishers like Hullbreacher make wheels a miserable experience; from the other side, fast mana makes wheels pushed cards without any enforced asymmetry. Like, spam all your fast mana and then Timetwister is the sort of thing you do in vintage.

I don't think wheels or draw preventing cards are going anywhere any time soon, but if they do, they really are just more sacrifices on the altar of fast mana.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think wheels or draw preventing cards are going anywhere any time soon, but if they do, they really are just more sacrifices on the altar of fast mana.
Vomit fast mana and play a wheel is not a common play pattern outside of cEDH tables. Whenever I see a wheel, it's almost always because it's a deck synergized around making opponents draw - nekusar, that sky snake thing, etc - or it's being made asymmetrical. Hardly anyone is playing wheels just for draw value in a low-curve deck. I've maybe seen the foretell WoF in mono-red goblins or whatever, but that's hardly overpowering.

Not to say fast mana isn't destabilizing, but I haven't seen its synergy with wheels being exploited by hardly anyone, and I don't think ever outside of cEDH.

That's just my experience though.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Vomit fast mana and play a wheel is not a common play pattern outside of cEDH tables. Whenever I see a wheel, it's almost always because it's a deck synergized around making opponents draw - nekusar, that sky snake thing, etc - or it's being made asymmetrical. Hardly anyone is playing wheels just for draw value in a low-curve deck. I've maybe seen the foretell WoF in mono-red goblins or whatever, but that's hardly overpowering.

Not to say fast mana isn't destabilizing, but I haven't seen its synergy with wheels being exploited by hardly anyone, and I don't think ever outside of cEDH.

That's just my experience though.
It's a bit more subtle than vintage. Like, if you do turn 3 Hullbreacher into turn 4 Wheel of Fortune, you're probably not going to get away with it, and then you've refilled everyone's hands and get access to it last. Starting the game with a Sol Ring not only speeds up the clock by one, making it way more likely you'll succeed, you also have more mana to spare after the wheel if someone does kill the Hullbreacher. And like, in the absence of fast mana, where you just play out your cards roughly on curve, wheels just aren't that good. Without the games where people have like 7-8 mana on turn 4, those wheels would frequently be almost dead draws where you throw away your turn just to rerandomize people's hands. But in the context of a format where almost any deck can on occasion just spews out their hand, you can be rewarded for playing a wheel. A lack of fast mana in a format pushes down the value of playing wheels, and honestly pushes down the value of all big draw effects, which would in turn push down on the value of something like Hullbreacher.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
It's a bit more subtle than vintage. Like, if you do turn 3 Hullbreacher into turn 4 Wheel of Fortune, you're probably not going to get away with it
Most people I see aren't holding up removal on turn 4 for something that gets flashed in eot. I think at an average commander table, you would get away with it.

Plus I'm assuming a deck running that sort of thing is also probably running free counters and whatnot so even if someone does keep up interaction you still have a decent shot.

However this isn't a play pattern I see commonly outside of cEDH.
Starting the game with a Sol Ring not only speeds up the clock by one, making it way more likely you'll succeed
Ime turn 2 and turn 3 are both developing turns where people probably aren't holding up removal unless they just happen to end up with an extra mana. I doubt the difference is huge.

However this isn't a play pattern I see commonly outside of cEDH.
you also have more mana to spare after the wheel if someone does kill the Hullbreacher.
What, 2 mana? I guess that's something?
And like, in the absence of fast mana, where you just play out your cards roughly on curve, wheels just aren't that good.
That's why people don't generally play them unless their deck specifically synergizes with wheels in a very explicit (i.e. nekusar) way. In my experience.
Without the games where people have like 7-8 mana on turn 4, those wheels would frequently be almost dead draws where you throw away your turn just to rerandomize people's hands.
Even if we're going down this rabbit hole of assuming everyone is playing fast mana (and in my experience - outside of sol ring - the vast majority of people aren't, I very rarely see another mana crypt, let alone more restrictive cards like mana vault, grim monolith, etc), wouldn't that mean your wheel could benefit another player who hit all their fast mana instead of you? Or at least benefit another player equally?

I mean I agree wheels are kinda crap in a vacuum but I also almost never see them except in decks that benefit from opponents drawing cards, or occasionally the red ones in aggro decks that want to vomit a bunch of goblins or whatever.
But in the context of a format where almost any deck can on occasion just spews out their hand, you can be rewarded for playing a wheel.
If any deck can do it, again, couldn't you just empower your enemy by playing a wheel?

Also I think it's a pretty small minority of decks that can vomit their hand, and usually they're either cEDH decks or bad aggro decks. Most normal decks are trying to find a balance of value and tempo so that they can keep pace in the game without instantly guttering out when they don't draw a wheel.
A lack of fast mana in a format pushes down the value of playing wheels, and honestly pushes down the value of all big draw effects, which would in turn push down on the value of something like Hullbreacher.
Where are you seeing all this fast mana, where are you seeing all these value-wheels, and are you sure it's not cEDH? This really doesn't correspond to my experience whatsoever.

Also, what fast mana are we talking about here? Sol ring, mana crypt, ok sure, those are easy ones. But after that I have a hard time seeing anything as terribly OP in a 75% meta.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
I do think there's something important you're all missing. To start, I think wheel effects are super fun and not at all a problem in a vacuum.
I don't think I agree with your premise, not even a little, so I can't really follow along with the rest :)

I would hate redrawing my opening hand after making 3 or 4 rounds of decisions even if it were cast on curve. I've never liked wheels and the dice rolly element they add to the game.

I especially detest Wheel of Fortune which heavily favors certain types of decks. The number of times I've seen the reanimator deck or the control deck savagely wreck the table after someone cast a casual wheel is so high. Just yuck.

The "casual wheel" of "Oh, i'm playing red and I couldn't think of what to lay for card draw so I put my wheel of fortune in there, I'm out of cards, let's wheel! It's fun!" is so boring. You hear things like "I'm not sure this is a good idea but let's see what happens!"

Double yuck :)

I get that people like them, and I wouldn't advocate banning them I guess (although Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister don't really add anything to the format except a wallet check, so I wouldn't be that sad to see those go--despite owning both:P).
tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
But their impact is pushed from two directions: from one side, the asymmetrical punishers like Hullbreacher make wheels a miserable experience; from the other side, fast mana makes wheels pushed cards without any enforced asymmetry. Like, spam all your fast mana and then Timetwister is the sort of thing you do in vintage.

I don't think wheels or draw preventing cards are going anywhere any time soon, but if they do, they really are just more sacrifices on the altar of fast mana.
This is a bit of a digression but some things to think about.

1. Getting mind twisted is crap, and it's crap on curve on turn 4. I've had that happen in a game where someone just cast Hullbreacher on turn 3 end step then untapped and wheeled and no one had an answer. There was no fast mana involved.

2. And this is a separate thread I'll start at some point but: Fast mana is healthy for commander and a blanket ban on the 6 or so busted mana rocks would essentially kill the format for non-green decks..

Now, that's a big thesis, I know. The cards I typically think about are:
At the more casual end of the format you rarely see those cards, but at the upper power levels (and not just CEDH, basically 7+) they are fairly critical to enabling powerful decks that are not green to play magic. Without them, you've got a lot of problems with non-green ramp strategies, and you drastically increase the power of green ramp strategies.

The first thing you'll run into is mono-color decks - there are only so many 2 mana rocks that are not complete trash in mono-color decks. You can't really play 10 of them which is basically the magic number unless you go deep into the ETB tapped ones and Colorless ones.

The second thing is that not every deck wants to play signets--there're 2-3 mana commanders and 5 mana commanders who would rather play ramp on 1/3 and there just are not that many good 3 mana rocks. It's basically Worn Powerstone and Coalition Relic and sometimes Chromatic Lantern-- stuff like Commander's Sphere is trash at the higher power levels.

The availability of mana positive rocks is not all good. It has negatives. But used responsibly they enable a lot of decks to exist that would struggle otherwise. ( incidentally, I have a similar basic view about tutors - what you tutor for is the problem, not what the possibility of consistency)

TL;DR What you cast when you accelerate affects games more than that you have accelerated.

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Post by papa_funk » 2 years ago

vandertroll wrote:
2 years ago
I really don't understand what's the fuss about banning Hullbreacher.
He can always just be flashed in order to punish another player wheeling or drawing a huge amount of cards.
That is the problem. Wheels inherently aren't an issue; wheels used offensively - as with Hullbreacher - are. It's easy and leads to miserable games.

And before you say that the solutions here are obvious, note that the historical trend is that Wizards is printing fewer and fewer wheels, and more and more cards that make them problematic.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

papa_funk wrote:
2 years ago
And before you say that the solutions here are obvious, note that the historical trend is that Wizards is printing fewer and fewer wheels, and more and more cards that make them problematic.
Before Hullbreacher I would have said they are getting better at not printing Notion Thief level shenanigans. Cards like Alms Collector and Smothering Tithe and Narset, Parter of Veils are quite a bit less problematic by virtue of being mostly weaker interactions.

Even with Narset, mind twisting your opponents is not an automatic win even if you get to draw 7, and I've seen people lose after narset bombing multiple times - they have to be ahead on board for it to work. If you wheel with Notion Thief or Hullbreacher out it's far more likely you win (since going up 21 mana or drawing 28 are both far more likely to secure a win).

Given how huge a difference we've seen in their commander printing strategies starting with Commander Legends I think they can definitely be taught to stop certain trends. We have not seen a Chulane, Teller of Tales tier busted legend since that release almost two years ago.

I don't say this very often but you guys need to frigging ban Hullbreacher yesterday. :)

(Said as a guy who blew 50 bucks on two foil hullbreachers)

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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Ime turn 2 and turn 3 are both developing turns where people probably aren't holding up removal unless they just happen to end up with an extra mana.
So nobody has removal available because they're tapping out for their own ramp.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
TL;DR What you cast when you accelerate affects games more than that you have accelerated.
I'm not gonna derail this thread the whole way, but I disagree with this entirely. Many, many cards have received undo judgment because of the play patterns that fast mana creates.
papa_funk wrote:
2 years ago
And before you say that the solutions here are obvious, note that the historical trend is that Wizards is printing fewer and fewer wheels, and more and more cards that make them problematic.
I don't think this is entirely true. In the last 5 or 6 years (since Magic Origins), we've had 9 cards that have each player draw 7: Commit // Memory, Day's Undoing, Echo of Eons, Emergency Powers, Game Plan, Magus of the Wheel, Ruin Grinder, Runehorn Hellkite, and Wheel of Misfortune. In all blackborder cards in Magic's history, there are only 20 cards that do that effect, and Sway of the Stars is super banned, so the next wheel effect they print we will have as many new wheels since Magic Origins as were printed in the 22 years before it.
Last edited by tstorm823 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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