Sheldon's throwaway comment about banning wheels

[BeneTleilax]

RC about wishes: uSe RuLE ZeRo.
RC about wheels: Ban them.

And on top of that, he was way off the mark, and I think it exposed a disconnect between the RC and the format at large.

Their boomer take on wishes already did that.

Wishes was already a whole recent thread, in which the general opinion of the community didn't want them. If they ban wheels, that would be one thing, but they didn't even talk about that. Sheldon said he found wheels annoying. That's it. Maybe some people take Sheldon's random comments as some sort of EDH Hadith and use them as the basis for rule-0 bans, but if that were the case, then his comments about rule-0'ing in wishes where desired should have just as much effect

[RxPhantom]

RC about wishes: uSe RuLE ZeRo.
RC about wheels: Ban them.

And on top of that, he was way off the mark, and I think it exposed a disconnect between the RC and the format at large.

Their boomer take on wishes already did that.

Wishes was already a whole recent thread, in which the general opinion of the community didn't want them. If they ban wheels, that would be one thing, but they didn't even talk about that. Sheldon said he found wheels annoying. That's it.

That's not what he said though. He said they're the "unhealthiest thing in Commander" and will "undergo a great deal of thought." Those aren't just idle observations; one could easily perceive this as indication of future bans. He also didn't mention Hullbreacher and friends, which is the most befuddling part of the whole thing. I'll concede, though, that maybe we shouldn't get too ruffled until an actual announcement.

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed by wish talk, but I consider them settled law, correctly adjudicated at that.

[kraus911]

EDH has absorbed waves of exodus from other formats because of WotC's mismanagement. ... I fail to see how WotC's abuse of the power they have in EDH means they should have more power over our format.

Hard agree. Even if I'm disappointed in the RC, at least they're not doing what WotC does.

Same. I mean, just look at this thread and the variety of opinions. The RC has a tough job and they tend to focus on making the format healthy as opposed to pleasing individual faction, as they should. I also appreciate how they've brought in a wider base of input in the past year. I think the main reason for having a thread like this is to get our discussion out there so that our thoughts can be seen. Without looking at hard data, the general consensus seems to be go after Hullbreacher and maybe Narset first and then wait and see if wheels are still a problem at all. I think that type of consensus would be useful to the RC.

Also, considering how insidiously capitalism works in things we love, like this game, I think it's a rare good move to officially support a format and keep a separate entity like the RC as the primary rules establisher. There's no question WOTC will always chase the money. I think the RC does an amazing job of picking their battles.

[capitacommunist]

I'd not be unhappy in the slightest to see Hullbreacher go, but I would be very disappointed if (certain) wheels would be banned. Without draw payoffs/limits such as Hullbreacher, the non-blue wheels support graveyard decks, decks with low curves that empty their hand quickly, and decks with limited other draw options (primarily red/Boros). That makes them fun and versatile cards that support quite a number of different strategies, whilst not being auto includes.

[tstorm823]

Well, yeah. I don't think it's healthy for a meta to become a tragedy of the commons situation where someone needs to hold up removal T3 because of just-in-case hullbreacher, but nobody wants to because they reasonably want to develop their board, so it becomes a game of chicken and/or people just don't and then get blown out. Probably fine for cEDH but that combo has no business being in a normal game imo.

Fair, it does have no business being in a normal game. My response when Hullbreacher was spoiled was "I'm never playing that card". But I'm still no fan of the "everyone spends 3 turns ramping, so nobody should be playing anything that needs to be answered in that period, and then we can start the actual game" meta.

[Legend]

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed by wish talk...

It's true that wishes are always the elephant in the room.

...butI consider them settled law, correctly adjudicated at that.

I can't wait for more settled laws to kick in.
Rule 12: "Effects that would cause one or more players to draw seven cards do not function in commander."
Rule 13: "Effects that would prevent one or more players from drawing card do not function in commander."
Rule 14: "Extra turn effects do not function in commander."

[DirkGently]

Fair, it does have no business being in a normal game. My response when Hullbreacher was spoiled was "I'm never playing that card". But I'm still no fan of the "everyone spends 3 turns ramping, so nobody should be playing anything that needs to be answered in that period, and then we can start the actual game" meta.

Not just ramping, but developing anything. A sac outlet, a cheap planeswalker, a Sword of X and Y. Basically anyone who isn't playing draw-go-control tbh. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to hold back those plays in a normal game to counter a fast blowout. If someone plays T3 narset and passes, then I think that's a bit more fair since people can anticipate a wheel and try to kill narset, hold up a counter, or at least play what they can. But something that doesn't provide the opportunity to untap after signaling that it's happening, especially that early, is unfair for a casual table. Needing to respond to threats like that has a massive warping effect on viable strategies and play patterns.

Rule 14: "Extra turn effects do not function in commander."

Okay the other two are dumb but this one would be great ngl.

[Sinis]

Rule 14: "Extra turn effects do not function in commander."

Okay the other two are dumb but this one would be great ngl.

I'd jam Emrakul, the Promised End in every deck, just to say they didn't get a real turn.

[pokken]

It's true that wishes are always the elephant in the room.

You are literally the only person I have ever seen bring them up with any care at all

(Outside of Dirk's three wishes concept which is a severe reduction of general power)

Rule 14: "Extra turn effects do not function in commander."

Okay the other two are dumb but this one would be great ngl.

I'd jam Emrakul, the Promised End in every deck, just to say they didn't get a real turn.

This is an easy fix, 'extra turns granted by your own effects do not function.'

And...I can't believe I'm saying this but this may be accidental genius. Extra turns are one of the least fun most annoying things ever in commander, and almost never provide any positive value. I'm not going to say I am definitely on board, but my kneejerk reaction is:

* This basically bans Expropriate without banning it...since everyone chooses time and it doesn't work, except as a really crappy Control Magic
* This functionally fixes Narset, Enlightened Master into a reasonably interesting commander
* This fixes Archaeomancer / Eternal Witness loops with extra turns as being one of the most nonsense "casual" infinite combos that slip into decks with all good cards.

There's a ton of positive and not all that much negative.

I think @Legend may have a pace on the RC yet

[Sinis]

* This functionally fixes Narset, Enlightened Master into a reasonably interesting commander

There are a lot of additional combat step cards.

[pokken]

There are a lot of additional combat step cards.

There are, but that's a *lot* more work to win with and happens with a lot less durdling since you only get what you hit with narset vs. additional turns with all your mana and extra land drops.

There's certainly no simple wombos like mystical tutoring for Time Stretch and taking two turns to figure out how you want to win - it's more 'ok, i get some value off an extra combat step, and maybe I chain a couple together but even that doesn't kill anyone without some way to buff narset.'

[DirkGently]

* This basically bans Expropriate without banning it...since everyone chooses time and it doesn't work, except as a really crappy Control Magic

"Gain control of target permanent you control."

Yeah that's pretty crappy alright

[TheGildedGoose]

Extra turns are fine. Slow play isn't.

[Legend]

Dead End (Rare)
Land
When Dead End enters the battlefield, each player chooses an effect. The chosen effects do not function for the rest of this game.
T: Add C.
Because feelings.

Warning for going Off-topic
Ulka

[BeneTleilax]

Dead End (Rare)
Land
When Dead End enters the battlefield, each player chooses an effect. The chosen effects do not function for the rest of this game.
T: Add C.
Because feelings.

If you're just going to %$#% on unrelated topics, go to another thread. Or another forum.

[JWK]

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed by wish talk...

It's true that wishes are always the elephant in the room.

They really aren't. Most people, especially those who have been playing for more than a few years and remember what it was like when wishes and sideboards were an optional rule in EDH, understand they have no rightful place in the format. There are always going to be divergent/minority opinions, about wishes and everything else in the game, but this particular issue isn't even on the radar for the vast majority of players.

[wildfire393]

So the way I see it, there's basically no world in which actual factual Wheel of Fortune should reasonably be banned. Sure, it interacts poorly with Hullbreacher, Narset, Notion Thief, and maybe a couple of other cards. But Wheels are one of Red's few big advantages in the game. They are absolutely a card that is used fairly, by a color that does not have much in the way of card draw, to equalize their hand after running out of gas, while also clearing out opponents who might be holding cards they've tutored or full grips from big draw spells.

Timetwister could probably get the axe, if for no other reason than every other single piece of power is banned for "perceived barrier to entry" reasons for being ungodly expensive, ubiquitous, and iconic. Twister is now worth more than any other single piece of power besides Black Lotus, and most of them at least two times more. It. along with [{Windfall]], are the two cheapest to cast in Hullbreacher/Narset colors, making them some of the easiest to use. Most of blue's other "Wheel" effects self-exile and come either with a sizeable drawback (Day's Undoing, Diminishing Returns) or a much higher mana cost.

Winds of Change could also reasonably axed, since it's super cheap and doesn't have the symmetry-breaking potential actual factual Wheel offers, making it basically only good as the most efficient combo with Hullbreacher and similar.

But honestly, I think the best solution is just to ban Hullbreacher. The flash + cheap mana cost means it ruins more games "on accident", Painter + Iona style, where player A tries to wheel, player B flashes in Hullbreacher and basically just wins on the spot. Narset could probably also get axed because Planeswalkers are relatively hard to interact with, and it's just as cheap as Hullbreacher and also mono-colored in the color with about half of the playable Wheel type effects. Notion Thief is more expensive, in two colors, and slightly more fragile, so might be okay.

[Legend]

There are always going to be divergent/minority opinions, about wishes and everything else in the game, but this particular issue isn't even on the radar for the vast majority of players.

Wishers (and now apparently wheelers) are an oppressed minority.

[Guardman]

There are always going to be divergent/minority opinions, about wishes and everything else in the game, but this particular issue isn't even on the radar for the vast majority of players.

Wishers (and now apparently wheelers) are an oppressed minority.

And don't forget about us Hybrid... ers? Hybrids? Highbreeders? Hybridi?... People for the Advancement of Hybrid Mana.

[DirkGently]

Timetwister could probably get the axe, if for no other reason than every other single piece of power is banned for "perceived barrier to entry" reasons for being ungodly expensive, ubiquitous, and iconic.

Expensive, yes. Iconic, sure, though that's hardly relevant. But ubiquitous? Not a chance. Even ignoring the availability issue, time twister is a niche card at best. I'd put it into the same camp as tabernacle and Workshop.

[onering]

Timetwister could probably get the axe, if for no other reason than every other single piece of power is banned for "perceived barrier to entry" reasons for being ungodly expensive, ubiquitous, and iconic.

Expensive, yes. Iconic, sure, though that's hardly relevant. But ubiquitous? Not a chance. Even ignoring the availability issue, time twister is a niche card at best. I'd put it into the same camp as tabernacle and Workshop.

Proof: Timetwister can be had for $2.75 on mtgo and is nowhere near ubiquitous.

[TheGildedGoose]

There are always going to be divergent/minority opinions, about wishes and everything else in the game, but this particular issue isn't even on the radar for the vast majority of players.

Wishers (and now apparently wheelers) are an oppressed minority.

Dear Legend,



Sincerely,
Literally everyone

[onering]

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed by wish talk...

It's true that wishes are always the elephant in the room.

They really aren't. Most people, especially those who have been playing for more than a few years and remember what it was like when wishes and sideboards were an optional rule in EDH, understand they have no rightful place in the format. There are always going to be divergent/minority opinions, about wishes and everything else in the game, but this particular issue isn't even on the radar for the vast majority of players.

Let's not let him threadjack. Or quote him.

[BeneTleilax]

I will say, with aggro decks, stripping answers is a known bonus of wheels. Honestly, I'm fine with that, given that aggro is far from overdominant in casual right now (I have no idea about cEDH). Slower paced decks get to wipe away everything aggro's build with a well-timed wrath, it's fitting that aggro has a way to disrupt their plans as well. It provides a give and take, and makes holding back answers more of a strategic tradeoff.

[pokken]

Wheel of Fortune is a significantly stronger card than Timetwister because in the decks that want wheels you can almost invariably play Underworld Breach or Past in Flames type shenanigans to take advantage of dumping your hand.

If one was to be banned, wheel is significantly more problematic, but:

Despite me really hating playing against wheels, I think enough people take a lot of joy in them that it's fine to just let them live. Mana Vault is not a fair card at all but it *fits* in Commander. Commander isn't about balance, it's about having a good time. And wheels probably create more joy for people than they sap, I think.

It's really Hullbreacher. Man that card stinks.