Crackle with Power - Is it the Red Torment of Hailfire?

[Guardman]

So I've been thinking a lot about Crackle with Power lately. And the more I think about it, the more I realize it has a lot of similarities with Torment of Hailfire. Both can outright end the game with enough mana and can be absolutely back breaking against the table at the 11+ mana. The main difference between the two is Torment of Hailfire gives your opponent choices which can be bad against certain decks, while Crackle with Power requires more mana, but can outright kill an opponent with a handful of cards or board full of tokens.

[Sinis]

I think you'll encounter the same problem you'd have if you drew a bunch of cards and tried to hurt people with Firestorm: You require a lot of targets. To dome someone for 30, you need 6 targets, and 18RR. Is 6 targets a tall order? Not sure, maybe not.

Second, the mana ratio isn't the same; you're spending (roughly) 3 mana for 5 damage. So, you get ~1.66 damage per mana. For Torment, you get 3 damage per mana after you exhaust their permanents/cards in hand. Also, Torment cripples people it doesn't kill when cast for a lot of mana.

Finally, Torment is lose life, Crackle is damage. That means they could have some prevention or something. Obviously some cards like Teferi's Protection stop either, but, something like Angel's Grace, Comeuppance, Righteous Aura etc. could shut you down entirely.

---

I'm torn on Crackle. I think it's okay and I want to like it, but, you definitely need to be in some very big mana before it's scary. 5 damage to one target for 5 mana could be used in a pinch. Even 10 damage to 2 targets is 8 mana. That's not a bad rate. I think if you're already at huge mana, Torment pays out better, but Crackle could have a better floor at like, 5-8 mana.

[Guardman]

I think you'll encounter the same problem you'd have if you drew a bunch of cards and tried to hurt people with Firestorm: You require a lot of targets. To dome someone for 30, you need 6 targets, and 18RR. Is 6 targets a tall order? Not sure, maybe not.

Crackle with Power is "up to", so you could play it for rr mana and only have one target.

[pokken]

So it takes 24RR to kill 3 players on the norm? It's more consistent than Torment in a lot of ways because Torment will struggle with people who have lots of stuff on board.

The incremental value of a crackle for say, 12RR (everyone takes 20 and I kill two creatures) is probably worse than 12BB torment *most* of the time, which will result in a bunch of people taking some damage and sacrificing stuff/discarding cards, but ehh -- it's a lot more consistent.

Just killing (usually) 5 creatures for 3RR is not too bad either really, reading comprehension edit

On the balance I think this is probably a better card than Torment, although it struggles from not having Cabal Coffers to power out the huge Crackles.

[Dragoon]

Just killing (usually) 5 creatures for 3RR is not too bad either really,

For 3RR, X is equal to 1 so you'd deal 5 damage to 1 target at sorcery speed, not great in my book.

On the balance I think this is probably a better card than Torment, although it struggles from not having Cabal Coffers to power out the huge Crackles.

You do have rituals like Mana Geyser though, and you still have access to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. But the difference in mana investment is certainly what makes the card feel inferior to Torment of Hailfire.

[Sinis]

I think you'll encounter the same problem you'd have if you drew a bunch of cards and tried to hurt people with Firestorm: You require a lot of targets. To dome someone for 30, you need 6 targets, and 18RR. Is 6 targets a tall order? Not sure, maybe not.

Crackle with Power is "up to", so you could play it for rr mana and only have one target.

I totes missed this. I'm more on board with it now.

[pokken]

For , X is equal to 1 so you'd deal 5 damage to 1 target at sorcery speed, not great in my book.

Ahh. Lame. Good catch.

I read a second 5 in there not the X targets part

[capitacommunist]

As a big mana finisher in red it is the best, greatly exceeding previous options such as Comet Storm. If it is better or worse than Torment is mostly a meta question I think. If your meta has a lot of token decks or decks built around large hand sizes, Crackle with Power is a much more consistent finisher.

[bobthefunny]

5 mana for 5 damage is a Lava Axe. Not that anyone is jumping onboard with lava axes in all their decks, but this is worst-case a lava axe that can hit creatures. That's... not bad. Actually, that makes it pretty fair.

Torment scales at 3*X, whereas this scales at 1(2/3) * X.

In theory, Torment gives you options to be disruption at lower mana cost - but I'll be honest - I have never seen it played that way, nor ever heard a story of it used that way. If used that way, the opponent choice would likely be a fair hindrance to you. I've only ever seen/hear Torment used in a way where X is greater than your life total + stuff.

For a comparison, let's assume an end state game where the highest player has 30 life, and you are trying to kill everyone.
Crackle with Power would require X=6, which means 18RR for the kill. 20 mana.
Torment of Hailfire would require X=10, PLUS cards in hand and permanents, or 10BBB + X stuff. 13 mana.

In short, Crackle requires equal mana to Torment in this situation if your opponents have 7 non-land permanents or cards in hand. I usually see Torment follow a wrath, so creatures are usually out, but mana rocks, Sylvan Librarys, and especially cards in hand balance this pretty well.

For funsies, Comet Storm, an oft-acceptable finisher, would cost 32RR for 34 mana in the same situation. Instant speed is nice though.

===

Let's talk mana.

Black uses Cabal Coffers, usually with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. To get 20ish mana, you would need 11 lands (inc coffers) out in this situation. This can be achieved a bit faster if you also have something like Crypt Ghast (Ghast + Coffers requires 8 lands, inc coffers), or maybe a nykthos, or a deserted temple out. Either way, it's probably still close to 10 +/- lands / other mana.

Red uses Mana Geyser. I have seen a 20 mana geyser on turn 5. That's not a likely scenario, but it does mean that any point after turn 5, red could have explosive mana. There's a new card out too - Rousing Refrain - while it won't be as explosive as geyser, that's still a significant amount of mana on a repeating basis. Couple with a few fork effects, and either ritual will get you what you need.

Neither color will have issues with the mana.

For funsies, if we're talking about an Izzet storm finisher, we can add all those cost reducers, and put a slew of Turnabouts and High Tides into the mix, and that gets messy fast.

===

If you're hoping to kill a 6/6 flyer that's a problem, Crackle with Power will take 6RR, or 8 mana. Equal to Comet Storm, but you get a free dome to someone's face.

Torment... well... for that cost you'd better hope your opponent has no other stuff, or is really low on life. There will be more collateral damage though, but also likely a lot more people upset with you... so... eh?

I would say that neither is really optimal at this price point... but I feel that crackle has the better capability of taking out a few high-profile threats, in a desperation scenario. I would slot neither into a removal slot in my deck though.

===

So... yeah, they're pretty comparable.

[3drinks]

As a big mana finisher in red it is the best, greatly exceeding previous options such as Comet Storm. If it is better or worse than Torment is mostly a meta question I think. If your meta has a lot of token decks or decks built around large hand sizes, Crackle with Power is a much more consistent finisher.

Is it though? Fireball|parl can table kill just as well with the same arbitrarily large amount of mana, because let's not kid ourselves, no one is playing Crackle (I'm just going to call it Cackle, because that's what I'd do if I ever resolved this spell ) fairly. Still a sorcery just like the aforementioned card, but hey, look, it can be used early on if you need to hit something right away. In the case of Comet Storm, it's greatly superior in the same use case because you can do it at instant speed, such as when you use Necromancy on George|jud, which "Cackle" certainly lacks.

I can't see any use case where I'd specifically want to pick out this card over other options. I get that it's new, and new cards are exciting and people want to justify them and use them. That's great and all...but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it actually is better or even different than what we could do already.

[capitacommunist]

Is it though? Fireball|parl can table kill just as well with the same arbitrarily large amount of mana, because let's not kid ourselves, no one is playing Crackle (I'm just going to call it Cackle, because that's what I'd do if I ever resolved this spell ) fairly. Still a sorcery just like the aforementioned card, but hey, look, it can be used early on if you need to hit something right away. In the case of Comet Storm, it's greatly superior in the same use case because you can do it at instant speed, such as when you use Necromancy on George|jud, which "Cackle" certainly lacks.

I can't see any use case where I'd specifically want to pick out this card over other options. I get that it's new, and new cards are exciting and people want to justify them and use them. That's great and all...but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it actually is better or even different than what we could do already.

Perhaps I should have specified, but I meant specifically as a big mana (but not infinite mana) finisher. If you are looking for infinite mana options mana efficiency is not relevant, so a lot of other cards become options due to side benefits they give.

However, if I'm playing a midrange red/Boros/Gruul deck that is looking for a finisher without any infinite mana combos, mana efficiency is key. At eight mana it deals ten to two players, where fireball only deals seven to one and comet storm five to two. At eleven mana Crackle with Power does 15 to three opponents, where comet storm only does ten. From there on Crackle scales better. And eleven mana is hardly out of reach, which is why I don't understand what you mean with 'nobody is playing Crackle fairly'.

That gives Crackle with Power a strong niche as a finisher in red decks that are not infinite combining. In those decks I have never considered either Comet Storm or Fireball, as they cost too much mana.

[JovialJovian]

Crackle with Power is very similar to Comet Storm, in that you can both use it with big/infinite mana to close out a game or use it as flexible spot removal. Torment of Hailfire is significantly weaker when X is small, but can effectively end a game even if you can't quite get it up to a lethal X, but crippling your opponents' hands and clearing chunks of the battlefield. Crackle with Power can accomplish a similar effect, but with a greater required investment and smaller payoff at Xs short of lethal.

[darrenhabib]

No, this is the red Torment of Hailfire.

[3drinks]

No, this is the red Torment of Hailfire.

Oh, you.