Rolling dice to decide attacks -or- Triggering RxPhantom's self-destruct sequence

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
"what are everyone's commanders? Oh, you're playing Chulane? Yeah this one's coming at you, taste it."
Inexplicably, the phrase "Taste it" hit my funnybone like a derailed train. I'm gonna have to use that one lol.
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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 2 years ago

I never roll the dice unless explicitly called upon to do so. A couple of the guys in my group will do it occasionally but they know that it's irritating to others so it's relatively rare - in fact it often backfires when the random person they attack decides to target them later on anyway, thus devaluing the strategy.

That being said I'd rather have people attack with a dice roll than never attack at all when given opportunity. I am aggro man and it goes against my nature to stay at home.

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

I only really do it very early in the game, if I'm not playing an aggro deck (which needs to attack with purpose all the time) and there isn't a player I want to target (or don't know who I should), and I have a small critter or two and multiple people are open. Basically, I can get in for incidental damage and its too early to figure out who is the best person to attack, and I don't have enough creatures to spread it out. The dice roll there helps let people know that I don't plan on just targeting them and am just looking to not leave incidental damage on the table, which reduces the cost of making the attack (if they crack back, it will usually only be in kind rather than disproportionate). Sometimes its important to let people know that you aren't going to be targeting them all game, Its pretty rare though, usually I'll be able to spread it out a little or there's a clear correct target or the creature is small enough that people don't care.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Inexplicably, the phrase "Taste it" hit my funnybone like a derailed train. I'm gonna have to use that one lol.
I wish I could claim credit, but I shamelessly stole that one from LSV (I listen to the limited resources podcast occasionally).
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Post by Treamayne » 2 years ago

All, other factors being equal, I attack in player order during the early turns. That said, rarely are all other factors equal beyond T1; somebody will have ramped harder, have a must-answer commander/threat; or in some other way distinguished themselves (having a blocker, not having blockers, etc. et. al.).

Then, of course, there is the bronze rule: if no opponent is the obvious table threat, it's you (maybe make sure you have a blockers before trying to ping for incidental damage).
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Post by Outcryqq » 2 years ago

kraus911 wrote:
2 years ago
(snip)
Another strategy though, why not just start every game with the Monarch? Roll for it, or maybe whoever goes last after rolling to see who goes first gets the Monarch. Then whoever wins gets Monarch the next game, throw a little blood in the water so to speak. Most of the games I've been in recently have had Monarch active by turn 3 or 4 anyways.
Interesting idea. Unfortunately, the issue I'd have is that having the Monarch is a massive advantage, worth approximately 3 mana and 1 life per turn (Phyrexian Arena), and having it early in the game is even more of an advantage, as people are less likely to be attacking that early. I know some leagues give a bonus to who attacks first; I think that's a good way of incentivizing early attacks without giving one player a massive random advantage in the early game.

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

To me there is always a reason to find whom to attack an opponent, if you have the creatures to spare for it. Using a dice to decide which way to swing is just a weak reason in my opinion, but I suppose it is one. I just don't accept the argument that it's random; you might have opted to roll the dice but in the end you are still deciding what you are turning sideways. And on top of that you might also be deciding to ignore an obvious threat. Stuff I'll definitely take under consideration when it comes to my turn.

In short; Whether your decision is good or bad, simply own up to making the move.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

There was a guy in my playgroup who would swing semi-randomly when he was losing. Whenever he figured he was unlikely to win the game, he would start making pointless splashy plays to say he'd "done something cool that game" regardless of what he'd done when he thought he could win (so it wasn't a case of his decks being underpowered or never popping off). Generally, this meant taking himself and the second worst-off player out, rapidly consolidating the game. Eventually, he grew out of it after everyone else learned to make it a point to kill him quickly and absolutely as soon as he started to show weakness or salt.

I'm all for moving the format back to combat over time, rather than combos or other sudden kills, and an essential part of that is going to be destigmatizing opportunistic value attacks. Part of that problem, to me, is that players tend to underestimate their own threat status, even when they're otherwise decent at threat assessment. So when they're attacked, they genuinely think that someone else should have been targeted unless they were head-and-shoulders ahead of everyone else (and sometimes even then). That said, I think teaching people better threat assessment against their own biases is an uphill battle, and we'd be better served by establishing a norm that grudges are bad politics and furthermore, bad sportsmanship. The greatest strength of EDH is that it is a norm-based format, and I think that such norms are the first method of course correction.

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Post by umtiger » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
That said, I think teaching people better threat assessment against their own biases is an uphill battle, and we'd be better served by establishing a norm that grudges are bad politics and furthermore, bad sportsmanship. The greatest strength of EDH is that it is a norm-based format, and I think that such norms are the first method of course correction.
That second part is also an uphill battle.

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Post by RxPhantom » 2 years ago

umtiger wrote:
2 years ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
That said, I think teaching people better threat assessment against their own biases is an uphill battle, and we'd be better served by establishing a norm that grudges are bad politics and furthermore, bad sportsmanship. The greatest strength of EDH is that it is a norm-based format, and I think that such norms are the first method of course correction.
That second part is also an uphill battle.
That bolded part got my attention too. One can never underestimate the power of leading by example. If you can make a persuasive argument without being a jerk, you'd be surprised by the amount of buy-in you can get from a table or greater LGS ecosystem, especially if whatever you're pushing leads to more enjoyable games. For example, a few months ago, TCC put up a video that proposed pre-game discussions centered around the kind of game experience we want to have, as opposed to numeric power levels (I.e. my deck's a 7). Another player also saw that video and liked the idea. Now, players at my LGS have that kind of discussion before almost every game.
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Post by umtiger » 2 years ago

In my opinion, one way to do this is to debrief for a bit after each game.

Arguing and disagreeing or persuading is a time suck during a game. There is too much bias, gamesmanship, bad threat assessment, some players might not even have enough play skill/experience to know better. But at least all players have the benefit of hindsight after the game. It's much easier to explain things after the fact.

I make zero comments about gameplay choices during games. Unless it's a cool play. Pretty much only stick to giving out positives.

Any comments about tactics or strategy come after the game from me.

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Post by LightningHelix » 2 years ago

I find most often, people tend to use it as a political tool not take blame for attacking you. "Sorry but the dice rolled you."

It dosen't bother me too much as random chip damage rarely matters, it does make me roll my eyes a bit.

It would infuriate me though if the game has a well established lead player and someone decides to use the dice instead to decide who to attack, but I have not seen that yet.
Last edited by LightningHelix 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Magiqmaster » 2 years ago

I have a friend with whom I regularly play, who sometimes seems to roll dice -in his head- when deciding who to attack. Not sure if its improper threat management skills (although I'm pretty convinced it is), but it infuriates me when he does that. And when I point out who he should be attacking instead when his choice appears dubious, he often decides to punish me somehow after that for mentioning the obvious. So I have learned to shut my trap upon such occasions, but I still grumble a lot internally....

Anyhow, I use dice on occasion when the board state is more or less equal amongst my opponents, when I just can't seem to pick an obvious target. Moreso in the mid to late game, when attacking someone might provoke some backlash. Afterwards I can just blame the die result (with a wink), thus minimizing the player's reaction. Dice can be a good political tool when used properly.

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