[discussion] White in C21 + Strixhaven

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
I actually never felt that Trade Secrets was that powerful as a one time effect to be honest. My understanding of why it was banned was more or less people who were kingmakering each other in comp games by letting each other draw their entire decks.
Not just comp games, the incentives are basically the same in any game. Ignoring the particulars (and I'm roughly quoting from the announcement I think) it turned games into a two-horse race by giving two players massively more resources than the other two.
Its also more powerful than what I am suggesting the white effect should be in that it draws four cards for 3 mana not 3 cards for 3.
The repeatability was intended as a downside on TS. In 1v1 it basically gives your opponent the choice of "you draw 2 I draw 4 once" or "we both draw as much as we want". Since they get the selection, it's whichever the worse of those two is (for you). But multiplayer removes the symmetry of the second choice and makes it broken.

Anyway, my point is that it makes sense that a card without the downside of giving an opponent a choice would be less efficient. Plus I don't think TS was designed with multiplayer in mind (or if it was, it was designed by a moron), whereas SR is costed fairly for multiplayer.
The most important part of the effect is going to start off being how many cards do you draw for the mana but I just don't feel that draw three for three also deserves to give an opponent three cards still.
I think it's probably balanced at least in part for 1v1. If it drew 1 for the opponent I think there's a solid chance it'd show up in standard (which isn't necessarily a problem but maybe they didn't want to make white the color of draw in standard). I do think draw 2 would have been printable, but I don't think that makes the card we got a bad card. I think the intention was to force players to use it politically, rather that just giving a generically good draw spell.

Again, good when behind is kinda white's thing - and that's not a bad thing to be good at. You could never print a card like Keeper of the Accord without the "from behind" clause, just like they can't print a draw 3 for 3 without a downside that becomes significant when ahead.
I am not trying to say that the effect of Trade Secrets is bad, but you essentially have to be playing a combo deck or be 100% sure that your opponent doesn't have a combo to cast that spell. If you cast that and target someone who WHOOPSIE has a Thassa's Oracle in their deck you essentially just punted.

I think a one shot use Trade Secrets is only.... ok.
One of the nice things about SR is that you don't need to worry about Thassa's Oracle since the benefit it gives is capped instead of unlimited.

TS was insane in basically any meta, and SR isn't really a fair comparison since it's a much smaller effect. But my point was mostly that the strength of both cards rests on the fact that they only benefit a single opponent. If they were truly symmetrical they'd be awful.
Venedrex wrote:
2 years ago
Maro recently mentioned that a version of Rhystic Study that only drew one card per turn would be OK. That is more along the lines of the card draw I believe white should get. More cards similar to Mangara, the Diplomat is what I would like to see. Also, as far as Secret Rendezvous goes, has anyone here put it in their decks, or is planning on running it? I would be very curious to see the results of it being played.
Oh god, please let's not make more rhystic studies. Optional tax effects are cancer.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I have no idea why anyone with Trade Secrets would ever, ever draw two more cards to give someone 4. If someone has a c-sphinx out I am actively avoiding drawing cards. Very confusing to me why it even needs to be banned. If you said "you can draw your deck, but the person who asked if you want to then draws their deck" the answer there is hell no. It's their turn. They're 100% going to win immediately unless I have more pieces of free countermagic than them (somehow). And there is zero chance of that these days. The trade secrets deck will never pick someone with free counters to draw with.

But the card would be very powerful even as a one shot.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I have no idea why anyone with Trade Secrets would ever, ever draw two more cards to give someone 4. If someone has a c-sphinx out I am actively avoiding drawing cards. Very confusing to me why it even needs to be banned. If you said "you can draw your deck, but the person who asked if you want to then draws their deck" the answer there is hell no. It's their turn. They're 100% going to win immediately unless I have more pieces of free countermagic than them (somehow). And there is zero chance of that these days. The trade secrets deck will never pick someone with free counters to draw with.

But the card would be very powerful even as a one shot.
It wasn't banned for the cEDH "who has more counterspells to backup their Thassa's Oracle" meta - the most cutthroat decks were a lot slower back then, and those weren't the decks they cared about targeting anyway. It was banned because, in a normal fair 2012 (or whenever it was banned, back when everyone played reliquary tower lol) game, having the ability to give half the table unlimited resources while the other half has limited resources kinda breaks the game. You kinda just eliminate two players for 3 mana by rendering their resources proportionally insignificant.

Obviously SR is a much smaller effect, but the general principle applies.
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Post by Moonlighter » 2 years ago

I think your view on your metagame, and whether it's a fickle creature or a thing you use to your advantage, is going to determine how you feel about Secret Rendezvous. I mean, the person who is attempting to suggest it's even minutely useful is @DirkGently, who runs a Phelddagrif primer based entirely around putting you in an advantageous position by letting everyone else think that they are in one.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
It wasn't banned for the cEDH "who has more counterspells to backup their Thassa's Oracle" meta - the most cutthroat decks were a lot slower back then, and those weren't the decks they cared about targeting anyway. It was banned because, in a normal fair 2012 (or whenever it was banned, back when everyone played reliquary tower lol) game, having the ability to give half the table unlimited resources while the other half has limited resources kinda breaks the game. You kinda just eliminate two players for 3 mana by rendering their resources proportionally insignificant.
Meh, if you're the opponent making the choice to consecrated sphinx your opponent you're dumb and that really should only ever happen once. There is no way it increases your chance to win so don't do it.

Even without thoracle you can bet the person playing that card has a way to win that's more likely than the typical assumed odds of 75% chance of you losing a 4 player game.

It's much like those game theory ideas about commander where people assume that eliminating two opponents is always a net positive but have a misunderstanding of what the real odds are of winning a 1v1 game where the person who played the card that made it 1v1 decided to allow it. Most of the time if someone gives you a choice to make the game 1v1 it's because they are very confident they will win:P

If it were legal today I am nearly 100% sure that it is irrelevant except as a draw 4 for 3.
Moonlighter wrote:
2 years ago
I think your view on your metagame, and whether it's a fickle creature or a thing you use to your advantage, is going to determine how you feel about Secret Rendezvous. I mean, the person who is attempting to suggest it's even minutely useful is @DirkGently, who runs a Phelddagrif primer based entirely around putting you in an advantageous position by letting everyone else thing that they are in one.
I agree with Dirk fwiw, so it's not just him :)

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Meh, if you're the opponent making the choice to consecrated sphinx your opponent you're dumb and that really should only ever happen once. There is no way it increases your chance to win so don't do it.

Even without thoracle you can bet the person playing that card has a way to win that's more likely than the typical assumed odds of 75% chance of you losing a 4 player game.

It's much like those game theory ideas about commander where people assume that eliminating two opponents is always a net positive but have a misunderstanding of what the real odds are of winning a 1v1 game where the person who played the card that made it 1v1 decided to allow it. Most of the time if someone gives you a choice to make the game 1v1 it's because they are very confident they will win:P

If it were legal today I am nearly 100% sure that it is irrelevant except as a draw 4 for 3.
Not sure why you're bringing in con sphinx. I think we probably both agree that it would be stupid to stop somewhere in the middle in almost all circumstances. You either don't repeat at all, or you repeat until you're both tired of drawing. So the 2:1 ratio is pretty irrelevant.

Remember that this was banned in the days when freaking Kokopuff was banned - kokusho was too stronk for the RC. I think it's safe to say that, however you're thinking the game is ending post-trade secrets, it's something way stronger than what they were concerned about. In the world of "we just drew 40 craw wurms", I don't think any win is guaranteed, and by corollary the other person isn't necessarily in an terrible situation for accepting it. They're probably in a pretty darn good situation.

And even these days, unless you've each played against each others' decks before to the point that you know all the nooks and crannies, the targeted person may well have good reason to think they can win off an unlimited draw. Maybe it's 75% casual, but you're playing a blink deck with oracle for the pseudo-scry etb (I have seen real people do this btw). You didn't look threatening at the time, so the TS player targeted you, and then bam, you win. Yes, the majority of the time you'd probably be ill-advised to take the deal, but as the TS player, I'm going to play it even if it is genuinely a huge benefit for the other player, so long as it increases my win% against the table.

So it's totally conceivable that it could indeed benefit the other person substantially. All we know about the deck of the trade secrets player is that they're playing trade secrets. That doesn't imply much of anything about the power level of their deck. They could be playing the freaking zedruu precon. I'd absolutely accept the deal from the zedruu precon player, wouldn't you?

Also it needs be remarked that it doesn't really matter even if the TS player is basically guaranteed a win off TS, so long as the targeted person doesn't think so. I think that's part of what makes the card so frustrating. Target the new player, they accept because cards = good, and then you win trivially while the other players groan. There only needs to be one idiot at the table to break the game, and that's not really a great experience.

Plus it's not like it's a dumb gimmick card that's only effective against morons. Draw 4, enemy draws 2 is still a great draw spell in multiplayer, as evidenced by the fact that we're both arguing the efficacy of a card that pushes both those numbers in the bad direction. So it would definitely get played, and then sometimes it would end the game in anti-climactic fashion because someone makey a mistakey and targeted someone with oracle in their deck or whatever. I think we're all a lot better off with it banned.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Remember that this was banned in the days when freaking Kokopuff was banned - kokusho was too stronk for the RC
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Draw 4, enemy draws 2 is still a great draw spell in multiplayer, as evidenced by the fact that we're both arguing the efficacy of a card that pushes both those numbers in the bad direction. So it would definitely get played, and then sometimes it would end the game in anti-climactic fashion because someone makey a mistakey and targeted someone with oracle in their deck or whatever. I think we're all a lot better off with it banned.
Yeah I think the key point is that it was banned when people were much more naive about the game. :P We're at the point where people almost never misplays around Tempt with Discovery and almost no one picks time on Expropriate so I was thinking it would rapidly become understood that taking the choice is wrong.

The Consecrated Sphinx comparison I kinda left half-finished, but basically there's a subgame of edh called Consecrated Sphinx chicken where two players have them, and one person has to choose to stop drawing. Generally speaking, the weaker deck needs to cave and decline to draw with their sphinx or they lose.

That said, in practice you're right people often misdiagnose their position and the more I think on it, I think you're right that the same would happen with Trade Secrets. It's weird to me because intuitively I would never choose to let someone draw their deck if they're playing the card that does it -- and I would never play a card that lets someone draw their deck unless I was 100% sure I would win as a result. So it's weird to me, but you're prob right.



I do 100% agree that the fair mode of someone draws 2 / I draw 4 is fantastic and it'd see a lot of play even at sorcery speed, and is a really good point of comparison with the white version - being basically the amount you would expect it to be worse being outside of the draw color.

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

My experience with Trade Secrets was that it resulted in the targeted player drawing cards until they hit Reliquary Tower, at which point the caster hoped to have hit their own, or to have drawn the cards necessary to combo off. Meanwhile, the other two players twiddle their thumbs for ten minutes while waiting for the player to choose what to discard. Not exactly a fun experience.

...'target player draws two, you draw four' for three mana would still be a pretty strong card though.

Back to the original topic, I'm definitely happy that WotC is finally trending in a direction of white having access to ramp and card advantage. I'm not entirely sold on all of the cards themselves, but... it's good to have more options in white's toolbox. In the past, it has had options like Land Tax, Mentor of the Meek, and Knight of the White Orchid, but their one-off nature has made it difficult to actually build around them. I'm not sure what the critical threshold for these effects are, but by the time we get 'more options than you can fit in a deck', that threshold will presumably have been reached.

....going off quadrant theory for EDH, you're going to spend the majority of the game at parity of behind - only one person can be ahead at any given time. As a result, cards that are good when you're behind go up in value a bit. So, I don't mind white having a 'ramp if an opponent has more lands than you' theme. That said, I would definitely like more options like Lotus Vale to build around that theme. It's also significantly weaker in multiples, which makes it a bit awkward to have redundancy for in decks.

On the other hand, the symmetric options - Secret Rendezvous and Scholarship Sponsor - I'm not sold on. Maybe if there were a critical mass of effects to break the symmetry, but...

I forgot to include Angel of the Ruins in my first post, but it's a definite hit for me. I've been wanting more white Reclamation Sage effects, and if white's schtick is 'bigger effect with upside', that's cool with me. Cavalier of Dawn is another instance of this. There is a limit for how many expensive cards you can include in a deck though.

I'm a bit happy for Pilgrim of the Ages - I don't think it's actually playable (it's pretty inefficient), but white getting self-recursion (and card advantage) at common is a big deal. Reminds me of Eternal Dragon.

Haven't seen most of the other options in action yet (hence why I made the thread in the first place). That said, Monologue Tax looks like a miss based on what I've seen so far - crucially, it isn't actually ramp on turn three (unless you're at a very fast table), which makes it look pretty bad. I'm never sad to see more Possibility Storm synergy cards though. I don't hate the idea of white getting ramp / card draw as a punisher effect, and I'm definitely a fan of treasure tokens, but its power level is just too low.

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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

I'm aware of the baggage of punishing designs. I think they're a bad idea but better than symmetrical or political card draw, but it's an idea that WotC keeps going back to, like a dog to its own vomit. I think it's all lazy design. None of it really even addresses white's issues.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
*snip*
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
*snip*
So what y'all are saying is, it's so good, your going to put it in all your white decks? 😛
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Post by Venedrex » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Venedrex wrote:
2 years ago
Maro recently mentioned that a version of Rhystic Study that only drew one card per turn would be OK. That is more along the lines of the card draw I believe white should get. More cards similar to Mangara, the Diplomat is what I would like to see. Also, as far as Secret Rendezvous goes, has anyone here put it in their decks, or is planning on running it? I would be very curious to see the results of it being played.
Oh god, please let's not make more rhystic studies. Optional tax effects are cancer.
That's not what I meant. Apologies if I was being unclear. I meant a version of Rhystic Study (which I guess isn't really similar at all, so bad analogy on my part) that is basically just a copy and paste of Mangara's text. Whenever an opponent casts their second spell each turn, draw a card." Or "Whenever your opponent draws their third card each turn, draw a card. It could cost or something and it would be an enchantment.

Long story short, when your opponent does a lot of something, you get rewarded. Like how you get to draw a bunch of cards when people cast a million spells and you have a Rhystic Study.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
So what y'all are saying is, it's so good, your going to put it in all your white decks?
Mangara for sure, it doesn't fit in my other white deck (Ephara, where I don't play draw spells at all).

It'd really depend on what the other colors are and what effects I was going for and where card advantage comes from.

I think it's probably at its best in mono white midrange/control speed decks.



What I think the world needs is white Rishkar's Expertise (but for toughness) and Regal Force ;)

Maybe Mentor of the Meek that doesn't cost frigging mana :P

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
So what y'all are saying is, it's so good, your going to put it in all your white decks? 😛
I might play it in some, but usually I try to balance towards synergistic cards that fit with whatever "thing" I'm trying to do. SR is kinda generically good, not so much a synergy piece. I don't believe I've ever put harmonize in a deck.

It fits ok in Phelddagrif, but I don't generally like single-shot draw there. I'm not even running insane stuff like Dig Through Time anymore.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

One thing I'll say about Secret Rendezvous that really impedes its general adoption is that there really isn't enough of that kind of effect in white to build around, so you can't make active use of the second half. It's basically Alms Collector and Smothering Tithe as payoffs, and Secret Rendezvous as the engine.

On a related note to the lack of critical mass--

Black and blue decks can, if they choose, basically make their draw package non-synergistic as well by just jamming Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise , Deep Analysis, Fact or Fiction, Manifold Insights, and the cantrip suite of Brainstorm et. al. Black can just play a ton of Night's Whisper type cards if they want, and make their card advantage options not dependent much on other cards in their deck, which is a cool thing to do sometimes.

So I think if they print a bunch more things like Secret Rendezvous -- say if there were 6-10 similar types of cards -- they would be far, far more likely to find homes.

Right now white is basically doomed to a couple angles of synergistic card advantage:
* cheap creatures
* recursion
* blinking

Just drawing cards is not really an option even with the weird help-your-opponent rider. So give it a few years an they have hopefully made a bunch of these effects, they'll be much better.

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Just drawing cards is not really an option even with the weird help-your-opponent rider. So give it a few years an they have hopefully made a bunch of these effects, they'll be much better.
I think the best draw engine I've seen in white is all the equipment tutors + skullclamp, plus token-makers.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Angel of the Ruins might (in my opinion) be the best non cEDH white card of the set. Its really low key but the fact that it has zero dead draw times is really big. I think it will work really well in any sort of reanimator strategy given its ability to pitch itself but I also think it just has almost no dead draw times and it answers gods. The fact that they are selling it for $1 is outrageous. I put in an order to get another 5 of them. It probably won't jump in price but I am surprised that its price is so low. It fits into a lot of archetypes between reanimator, flicker, angels, control, and just random midrange value. It won't do anything for cEDH but I think its a very reasonable and in fact exceptional card for metas that aren't overly combo focused.

I still think that Archaeomancer's Map is going to be quite good, I am just not convinced that Angel of the Ruins is going to be less useful or good.

Monologue Tax I expect nothing from. I don't know how its not a $2 card.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Sinis wrote:
2 years ago
I think the best draw engine I've seen in white is all the equipment tutors + skullclamp, plus token-makers.
Kinda falls under 'cheap creatures' in my head but yea
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Angel of the Ruins might (in my opinion) be the best non cEDH white card of the set. Its really low key but the fact that it has zero dead draw times is really big. I think it will work really well in any sort of reanimator strategy given its ability to pitch itself but I also think it just has almost no dead draw times and it answers gods. The fact that they are selling it for $1 is outrageous. I put in an order to get another 5 of them. It probably won't jump in price but I am surprised that its price is so low. It fits into a lot of archetypes between reanimator, flicker, angels, control, and just random midrange value. It won't do anything for cEDH but I think its a very reasonable and in fact exceptional card for metas that aren't overly combo focused.

I still think that Archaeomancer's Map is going to be quite good, I am just not convinced that Angel of the Ruins is going to be less useful or good.

Monologue Tax I expect nothing from. I don't know how its not a $2 card.
Yeah, Angel of the Ruins is kinda dope in that you can get it with artifact reanimators too. I'm kinda thinking about it for Ephara even, That huge 5/7 body is really relevant, and it also plainscycles.

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Post by bobthefunny » 2 years ago

Angel of the Ruins is a good upgrade over Eternal Dragon. The Dragon doesn't see much use anymore, but used to be decent for fixing and self reanimation in slower casual. While the plainscycling is still good, a 5/5 for 7 is simply not a great, or even good value anymore - Typically I find that 6/6 is the more relevant statline for the flyers now. I still run the Dragon in one deck, and I can safely say that I've never had to use its return ability anymore.

7 is a lot to bank on the angel for a core removal piece, but viewing that as upside, or as a reanimation target makes the angel quite appealing.

I think I will view it first and foremost as a fixing tool, which can happen to return a massive value piece via something like Emeria Shepherd.
Sinis wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Just drawing cards is not really an option even with the weird help-your-opponent rider. So give it a few years an they have hopefully made a bunch of these effects, they'll be much better.
I think the best draw engine I've seen in white is all the equipment tutors + skullclamp, plus token-makers.
The first cards that get considered for pretty much any mono-white deck I build are Stoneforge Mystic, Relic Seeker alongside Sword of the Animist, Skullclamp, and Sword of Light and Shadow. From there, other tutors and equipment make the rounds of coming in or out, depending on if I want more draw, ramp, or recursion.

If I get to have blue, I also start considering the Trinket Mage cycle of cards for the relevant equipments, if I plan on running enough additional targets for them. 1 and 3 mages are pretty easy, Sword of the Animist mage is a bit trickier, but with Mana Rocks and some decent draw artifacts on 2, he can probably find a home.

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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

Secret Rendezvous also gets worse as players are eliminated. Barring a mass alpha strike, it will eventually become truly symmetrical.

It's features are exploitable, but again, the card is not a step forward for white. It's just a card that's white and frankly could have been a colorless artifact and nobody would have ever thought "this should be white."
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
Secret Rendezvous also gets worse as players are eliminated. Barring a mass alpha strike, it will eventually become truly symmetrical.

It's features are exploitable, but again, the card is not a step forward for white. It's just a card that's white and frankly could have been a colorless artifact and nobody would have ever thought "this should be white."
People wouldn't think "this should be white" because it's new to white. Doesn't that just prove it is a step forward? I can't think of much "2 players draw" cards except for damage triggers on a few blue creatures.

At 3 mana that would be very efficient for a colourless card. Colourless' "thing" is that it can get just about any effect, just less efficiently than coloured versions (at least in theory). So to say this should be colourless is saying that it's not efficient enough, which is a matter of opinion I suppose. But it seems pretty efficient to me.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
People wouldn't think "this should be white" because it's new to white. Doesn't that just prove it is a step forward?
I don't think so because communal card draw has niche applications at best. Communal draw does not help shore up white's shortcomings one iota. I appreciate a good devil's advocate argument, and y'all have certainly presented one, but surely y'all can see that it's a step sideways, not forward. No?
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Very relevant: Gavin + Ari talking about White (in Strixhaven, EDH, and elsewhere)

Some highlights:

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Post by capitacommunist » 2 years ago

Mookie wrote:
2 years ago
Very relevant: Gavin + Ari talking about White (in Strixhaven, EDH, and elsewhere)

Some highlights:
Thanks for sharing the video. I think on the whole they have tried out some new effects for white in Strixhaven and as they say, we'll need to see how they develop over time. I'm most excited for the small creatures generating card advantage, as this feels very white and plays well into a lot of white strategies.
On the being able to draw or create treasures for bending rules, I do hope they increase the power level of these cards. A card like Monologue Tax is pretty much unplayable with its one treasure per turn limitation whilst Rule of Law at the same mana cost is one of white's strongest cards. This also makes Hullbreacher seem very out of place in blue now.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think so because communal card draw has niche applications at best. Communal draw does not help shore up white's shortcomings one iota. I appreciate a good devil's advocate argument, and y'all have certainly presented one, but surely y'all can see that it's a step sideways, not forward. No?
Your initial argument was "this isn't a step forward because it could be in colorless". Once I pointed out that this isn't really true, you changed to "this isn't a step forward because 'communal' card draw isn't good, full stop."

The word "communal" is doing a lot of work here, by equating it to symmetrical effects like Font of Mythos, which this is much much better than (in a vacuum). If you look at this card and think "that's basically the same thing as everyone draws three cards", and still think that after reading what I've written, then idk what else to say tbh. Horses and water and all that.

This is essentially a new effect. The only equivalent off the top of my head is stuff like Diviner Spirit and that snake-making dude from last year's precons. It's a powerful effect in multiplayer, and giving it to white is, imo, a stroke of genius since it plays to white's ethos while still being very powerful in the right circumstance.

I stand by my analysis that this is roughly equivalent to Harmonize. Harmonize is a fine card that's still usually inferior to more synergistic payoffs for most decks, but decks with a broader strategy may still play it. And I think the same is true here. I expect we'll see more similar effects in the future, perhaps with a higher, more synergistic ceiling.

So to answer your rhetorical question, no I don't think it's a step sideways, and no I'm not playing devil's advocate. This card is going to feel brutal when you're the one cut out of the deal.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Secret Rendezvous is bad. It combos with Alms Collector, but I don't see why you can't get something extra or have the opponent getting one less. Words of Wisdom is a perfect example on what a what drawing could be. Maro says white is worst at drawing, that doesn't mean it has to be THAT much worse than other colors.
I really don't get the comparisons between words of wisdom and SR. Words of wisdom, outside of synergy, does essentially nothing. You spend 2 mana, and all players are +1 card. White, lacking anything like Nekusar, the Mindrazer in the CZ to exploit enemies drawing a card, would almost certainly never run such a trash-tier card. SR, in a 4-player situation, distributes the same number of cards to your collective opponents as words of wisdom, except it gives you 3 cards instead of 2. Seems well worth the extra 1 mana and sorcery speed, even completely ignoring the political implications (which as I've mentioned is a pretty poor way to analyze it).

If you're really champing for symmetrical draw (which isn't totally insane for mono-white - after all, if everyone has tons of cards already, then enemy card draw is rendered relatively meaningless), just run Howling Mine and company.
My comparison of SR and WoW was meant to describe how WotC could continue white's flavor i.e. sharing of benefits without being on the losing end. For example, because SR let both players draw three, the caster i.e. the white player is actually +2 in the final count while the beneficiary is +3. If SR was "you draw three and target opponent draws two," then at least both players would be +2, that way SR can still serve its political purpose without the caster earning one less card.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
My comparison of SR and WoW was meant to describe how WotC could continue white's flavor i.e. sharing of benefits without being on the losing end. For example, because SR let both players draw three, the caster i.e. the white player is actually +2 in the final count while the beneficiary is +3. If SR was "you draw three and target opponent draws two," then at least both players would be +2, that way SR can still serve its political purpose without the caster earning one less card.
Let's make a theoretical sorcery, "Public Rendezvous". It costs 1WW and says "draw 3 cards. Each opponent draws a card".

In a 4 player environment, which card would you rather cast - SR or PR?

PR "doesn't put you on the losing end", but I would strongly argue that SR is a better card even in the worst case, and much better in the best case. I'm hoping you can understand why by now, because I'm kinda tired of repeating the same points.

Ofc, PR works better in the 1v1 game, insofar as it's not worthless, which is a significant downside of SR. But I'd still rather have SR overall, by quite a bit. Especially in this day and age, where most people are trying to win in a single turn rather than eliminate their foes one at a time, by beating them to death as Richard Gardfield intended. If someone wants to say "SR sucks because it's bad at 1v1" then like...sure, if that's a thing that happens a lot in your meta than I guess that's your call. But that doesn't seem to be the argument anyone is making.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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