[discussion] White in C21 + Strixhaven

[Mookie]

In Strixhaven and Commander 2021, we've gotten a few new cards to help White out in Commander. More specifically, we've received new options to allow White to draw cards or ramp, which are areas it has traditionally been weaker in. Now that the set has been out for a bit, has anyone been able to play with these cards yet? If so, any first impressions? Which are worth including in decks? Which are misses?

New cards:

• Scholarship Sponsor
• Archaeomancer's Map
• Losheel, Clockwork Scholar
• Monologue Tax
• Secret Rendezvous

[FenrirRex]

Focusing on cards that are designed to try and fix traditional white weaknesses-

Top-Tier:
Archaeomancer's Map- Spectacular, gets you two cards with more potential upside, the real deal for mono-white and okay in some color combinations.

Mavinda, Students' Advocate- Pulling cards from your graveyard is a notable form of card advantage. In the right build, Mavinda is quite killer at providing serious value.

Angel of the Ruins- We've seen plainscycling before but it's worth noting that this is a very valid early fixing play with a serious late game upside.

Good, but Disappointing:
Losheel, Clockwork Scholar- Great card advantage engine, I'm just sad that it's essentially only card draw in a "mono brown" white deck. Feels bad.

Not as Good as it Looks:
Monologue Tax- This won't trigger nearly as often as you want it to, and the catchup effect isn't as powerful as its predecessor.

Actively Bad:
Pilgrim of the Ages- It isn't the worst by any means, but there are so many better ways to repeatedly pull lands.
Scholarship Sponsor- Don't give other people lands.
Secret Rendezvous- Don't give other people cards. Well, okay, maybe there is some political use here, but there are better politics cards to play even in mono white.

[pokken]

I am gonna play a lot of these cards:

• Angel of the ruins
• archaeomancer's map
• scholarship sponsor

And I am pretty sure I will play Mavinda, Students' Advocate at some point.

The plains related stuff is what I am mostly stoked about. Map is definitely my top card in a very long time.

[DirkGently]

As a New Zealander, I'm offended by your assumption that we've all had access to the set for "a bit". Though on the plus side we've got a 4-day prerelease weekend, woo!

Anyway if you ask my opinion, it looks like the bigger push was to create new powerful options for RW. The new commanders really hit it out of the park - when was the last time the RW commander was the most popular precon commander on edhrec?

[Sinis]

IMO, it really isn't enough. White got some 'powerful' inclusions, but they're nothing compared to recent inclusions, especially in Simic. It's power creep, but, it's not at the same pace as other colours.

IMO, it's at the point that Magic has only four colours. Also, Secret Rendezvous is crap, and white players have Stockholm Syndrome for thinking it's good.

[DirkGently]

IMO, it's at the point that Magic has only four colours.

I hate this meme. Is white weaker than the other colors in commander? Sure. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Uh, no. On EDHrec white has something like 80-90% of the presence that blue and green do (I think the order is U > B > G > R > W in terms of edhrec popularity). Would a 6' person say a 5'4" person didn't exist?

Outside of cEDH, people limit their decks in all sorts of ways, by playing weaker commanders, including weaker cards, avoiding linear play patterns, eschewing MLD and combos, etc. This isn't a format where anything that isn't top-tier is irrelevant. Could white use a little boost? Sure. Is it functionally nonexistent? Hell no.

Also, Secret Rendezvous is crap, and white players have Stockholm Syndrome for thinking it's good.

It's not amazing but it's not awful. I think it's on par with Harmonize...which isn't really a card I play either.

[pokken]

hate this meme. Is white weaker than the other colors in commander? Sure. Does that mean it doesn't exist?

White is probably my single favorite color in commander and it's definitely nowhere near as bad as people say. And it's actively getting better for the most part.

At this point, white is maybe two or three ridiculous bombs like Akroma's Will and two or three great ramp spells like Archaeomancer's Map from being the third best color (after green and blue). Note, I do have a controversial opinion that black is only the third best color overall outside of CEDH (where Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation make it clearly the second best color combined with the good tutors). Sadly none of those cards are really that useful outside of CEDH where they're too strong for all but the most tryhardy tables.

White brings a ton to the table.

Hands down the best removal suite, both across sweepers and targeted removal

• swords to plowshares
• path to exile
• unexpectedly absent
• generous gift
• heliod's mastery

What I would say is hands down the second best sweeper in the format, and it's not that much worse than Cyclonic Rift, and probably the next 3 or 4 best after that

• hour of revelation
• devastating mastery
• cleansing nova
• austere command
• akroma's vengeance
• planar collapse

Ridiculously underplayed and underappreciated answers to nonsense that goes on in commander

• angel's grace
• teferi's protection
• comeuppance
• selfless squire

a deceptively strong fetchland recurring ramp suite

• faith's reward
• brought back
• cosmic intervention
• sun titan
• sevinne's reclamation

And the second best land ramp in the format with stuff like

• knight of the white orchid
• boreas charger
• archaeomancer's map
• kor cartographer
• weathered wayfarer

And of course some really strong and fairly socially acceptable stax pieces that really don't see as much play as they probably should

• Stony silence
• rest in peace
• hushbringer
• strict proctor

etc.

[Sinis]

I don't want to bog this thread down with the negative. I like white, too. I just wish it got treated better than it did. Response behind the spoiler.

SPOILER

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IMO, it's at the point that Magic has only four colours.

I hate this meme. Is white weaker than the other colors in commander? Sure. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Uh, no. On EDHrec white has something like 80-90% of the presence that blue and green do (I think the order is U > B > G > R > W in terms of edhrec popularity). Would a 6' person say a 5'4" person didn't exist?

You are (of course) correct here, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

Take Archaeomancer's Map. People are singing this card's praises. It's $30, which is kind of ridiculous. But, is it really any good? It's a 1-mana discount on Armillary Sphere (which few people play, though it's not non-existent), and it gives you a kind-of burgeoning in the colours least likely to take advantage (because white draw, lol). It is very nearly equivalent to a Cultivate.

... I don't really now what to say other than, great, white got a Cultivate. It's too bad white's still in the stone age compared to other colours.

Outside of cEDH, people limit their decks in all sorts of ways, by playing weaker commanders, including weaker cards, avoiding linear play patterns, eschewing MLD and combos, etc. This isn't a format where anything that isn't top-tier is irrelevant. Could white use a little boost? Sure. Is it functionally nonexistent? Hell no.

I don't think that things being 'not top tier' is what makes them irrelevant. One of the problems I'm currently having with white is that other colours have power crept up a lot, and white hasn't kept pace. It is especially clear in the casual sphere; if I casually play White Cultivate while the next guy plays Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, am I really keeping pace with stuff people might happen to just be playing at a casual table?

The average power level of decks has skyrocketed since Eldraine, except White. It's like every colour got crazy bonkers good stuff, and white... didn't. They got like, 2015 stuff.

Also, Secret Rendezvous is crap, and white players have Stockholm Syndrome for thinking it's good.

It's not amazing but it's not awful. I think it's on par with Harmonize...which isn't really a card I play either.

It's totally awful. Let's set aside the politics aspect, or the feelsgood moments where you help a player who got mana screwed or something.

This is out of Vintage's context, but, would you ever just Ancestral Recall an opponent? 'Ancestral Freecall' if you will? You maybe gift them a couple of cards. Or they pay for it, with something like Pendant of Prosperity and then you get stuff for free.

The only other time we're willing to just hand people cards is in discard/shuffle draw 7s where we are getting more than them by having spent more cards (or being pricks with Hullbreacher, Alms Collector, Narset or Notion Thief).

Secret Rendevous. Is. Awful.

---

Now, let's check out how other colours fared in the last year? Simic got an exile board wipe! Oversimplify! What a great colour pie bend! (/s)
Black has been getting enchantment destruction in Mire in Misery, Pharika's Libation and Feed the Swarm! Maybe we'll see more in the future? Black also got Opposition Agent
Blue got artifact exile. TWICE. Oh, and Hullbreacher.
Red... we can't begrudge red any gifts. They were once as awful as white.

My point is that white just hasn't kept pace. It doesn't have an identity anymore, and the 'power' cards just aren't really all that great, when they're even good at all. I'll even cede that 2020 was good to white; we got Mangara, the Diplomat and Keeper of the Accord among others. But, man, the other colours got cards so crazy they were banned in multiple formats.

I did play against a Mavinda, Students' Advocate deck tonight and it was pretty cool. It's not quite Feather-tier, but it's definitely considerable.

[DirkGently]

Take Archaeomancer's Map. People are singing this card's praises. It's $30, which is kind of ridiculous. But, is it really any good? It's a 1-mana discount on Armillary Sphere (which few people play, though it's not non-existent), and it gives you a kind-of burgeoning in the colours least likely to take advantage (because white draw, lol). It is very nearly equivalent to a Cultivate.

... I don't really now what to say other than, great, white got a Cultivate. It's too bad white's still in the stone age compared to other colours.

I mean, most colors don't have a cultivate-tier ramp card. I think you could reasonably make the argument that white is currently second-best (albeit a distant second) at ramping.

Also a 1-mana discount on playable-ish card is kind of a lot tbh, especially with the not-insignicant bonus of the artifact. And don't forget that the artifact being a permanent is pretty relevant - it can be blinked, recurred, etc in ways that cultivate can't.

Not saying it's going to revolutionize white or anything, but color power is built on having many strong cards. Map is another brick in the wall, so to speak.

I don't think that things being 'not top tier' is what makes them irrelevant. One of the problems I'm currently having with white is that other colours have power crept up a lot, and white hasn't kept pace. It his is especially clear in the casual sphere; if I casually play White Cultivate while the next guy plays Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, am I really keeping pace with stuff people might happen to just be playing? The average power level of decks has skyrocketed since Eldraine, except White.

This is obviously meta dependent, but I think the ceiling for white's power is still well above the level of what most groups are playing at.

I've been jamming the Ranar precon at my LGS recently, and my winrate isn't bad - I think it's above EV, even. It's a white-heavy deck and ye gods is there a lot of janky crap in there. With a good deck it's no problem at all to keep pace in white imo. Ok, Uro is better than cultivate maybe? (Honestly not sure that's really true - cultivate puts you up a card immediately while Uro doesn't, and it guarantees land draws and fixing - I'd much rather have a 2-lander + cultivate than 2-lander + Uro) But this isn't 1v1 where having a 20% stronger deck makes you 80% more likely to win or whatever - slower, less-threatening decks have more capacity to evade threat-assessment and come from behind to win. White isn't great at just slamming down threats and going for an early win, true. It's primarily a control color in commander, because the threats it gets for standard don't usually scale well to slower games. But that doesn't mean it's less likely to win games in the long haul imo.

IMO green is the most overrated color. I see so many games where the green player goes SLAM BAM here's my wincon, and then the table rips them apart with answers or beats them to death in the air or whatever. Raw power appeals to scrubs, which is why so many people think green is so great, but in terms of actually winning - let alone winning in a meta of balanced power levels - I think it's pretty meh. It's so...face-up on the table. Yuck.

(obviously this is a broad generalization. And I've made plenty of green decks, although by my stats it looks like it's probably my least-played color by a 10-15% margin).

It's totally awful. Let's set aside the politics aspect

"when you take away the thing that makes it good, it's not good."

Excellent point lol.

or the feelsgood moments where you help a player who got mana screwed or something.

Happy to let those go. I don't play to help other people win. If I think helping the manascrewed player will increase my chances to win, then I'll do it. Otherwise, nah.

Politics is a bloodthirsty sport. It's not about helping people out of altruism.

This is out of Vintage's context, but, would you ever just Ancestral Recall an opponent? 'Ancestral Freecall' if you will? You maybe gift them a couple of cards. Or they pay for it, with something like Pendant of Prosperity and then you get stuff for free.

The only other time we're willing to just hand people cards is in discard/shuffle draw 7s where we are getting more than them by having spent more cards (or being pricks with Hullbreacher, Alms Collector, Narset or Notion Thief).

Secret Rendevous. Is. Awful.

All of this is irrelevant since (1) you've chosen to arbitrarily ignore the political aspect of the card when that's a significant part of what makes it good and (2) you're ignoring the fact that it only lets ONE person draw 3 cards instead of everyone draw 3 cards, which makes it at least on par with divination in a 4-player game.

(in practice I think it's much better than divination in 4-player, sometimes much better than a 3-mana harmonize if the person you're targeting is cooperative. But then on the flip side, it's bad when you're ahead - which hey, being bad when ahead is kinda white's thing - and terrible in 1v1, so it kinda balances out to be good not amazing)

Now, let's check out how other colours fared? Simic got an exile board wipe! Oversimplify! What a great colour pie bend!
Black has been getting enchantment destruction in Mire in Misery, Pharika's Libation and Feed the Swarm! Maybe we'll see more in the future?
Blue got artifact exile. TWICE.
Red... we can't begrudge red any gifts. They were once as awful as white.

My point is that white just hasn't kept pace. It doesn't have an identity anymore, and the 'power' cards just aren't really all that great, when they're even good at all.

UG getting a wipe is certainly significant, but Phyrexian Rebirth has been a thing for ages, and for one more mana instead you take all the biomass and give it to yourself. And it's just a decent wipe for white, out of many. UG isn't usurping the board wipe throne anytime soon. Though I also dislike the bend.

Black's enchantment removal exists. It's all terrible. Wouldn't play any of it. The day may come when black is good against enchantments, but today is not that day. I'll continue to play Karn, Ugin, and smol Ugin instead of those trash cards. As far as I'm concerned they don't really exist within commander. It's new but it's not power creep in any meaningful way.

Ravenform is similarly trash. Resculpt is a fair bit better but I really doubt it's going to become a staple or anything. Bends are a little annoying in terms of preserving the pie, but in terms of how much stronger it actually makes the color, eh, not by much in this case imo. Outside of cEDH I think most people are going to balk at giving an opponent a serra angel.

I'd say white's identity is among the more intact since it hasn't strayed as far as other colors tbh. It's kinda always been bad at doing a bomb, at least as long as I can remember. But that's just the nature of how white plays. Is that a difficult way for many players to play, especially newer and/or weaker players? Yes. Does that mean it's a problem? Not really. I'd be happy to see white getting more archaemancer's maps, but I don't really want to see white getting the next Omniscience or Emergent Ultimatum or Expropriate or whatever, just because some people have a hard time playing with subtlety.

[capitacommunist]

[*]Scholarship Sponsor - I'm looking forward to playing this in non-green white decks. I think it will not be difficult to get the most out ornithischians spell, even if one or two opponents also profit a bit. I look forward to playing it with Scorched Ruins and Lotus Field
[*]Archaeomancer's Map - as a white hybrid between Tithe and Burgeoning I think this is very playable. It being an artifact also allows white to recur it. Just disappointed that it cannot find duals, as that limits it to two color white decks or mono white.
[*]Losheel, Clockwork Scholar - the combination of the restriction of once per turn and only triggering for artifact creatures makes it very narrow in my view. I think you want to be looking for the first ability, with the second ability as a bonus, as I think the density of artifact creatures is too low to play it as a draw engine.
[*]Monologue Tax - I can't see myself playing this. This will mostly be worse than Worn Powerstone on average, and it has negative synergies with some of white's best permanents.
[*]Secret Rendezvous - a lot has been written about this already. Regardless of the political benefits this card can provide, I don't see it being a card you want to include in mono white. Your card quality is likely to be the lowest in the table, and you're putting an opponent up +3 whilst you spent a card and three mana to go up to +2. I'm also surprised by the mana cost, as this card is not going to be played in any decks outside of mono white anyways, yet we cannot play this card off of Mana Crypt and Plains for 2W.

Overall white didn't do too bad with two strong cards and a couple of good cards in specific niches (such as Mavinda), and quite a power boost to Boros. At the same time, I don't think white was actually catching up with this set, just not falling farther behind.

[Cyberium]

White cards from Strixhaven and C21 are Good, but troubling.

WotC is buying into the mentality of white is the "catching up" color, and while it's true, that doesn't meaning catching up cannot be turned into "surpassing". For example, Land Tax let you search for three lands even if you're one land down, and Keeper of the Accord can potentially net you several tokens and several lands after a round, because it triggers on every opponent's turn.

In other words, WotC's current mentality seems to settle on white (and helping allies) catching up to the strongest player, but they forgot white is also the color of underdog to topple the strongest (evident by its smaller creatures + equipment/aura synergy). It's the color of both monarch and dethrone, interestingly enough.

So when I look at new white cards, Archaeomancer's Map is without a doubt the best of the bunch. Not only does it allow you to catch up mana wise, unconditional fetching means you can potentially run ahead of the group. It being a 3cc artifact also goes super well with white's affinity for small permanents and artifacts. This card is a win.

Mavinda, Students' Advocate is another great card. White has the highest number of protective spells targeting your own creatures, so Mavinda creates card advantage by preserving your stuff. It's a flavor and functional win without being overpowered. It does require a bit of deck building to work though.

Angel of the Ruins goes with Lorehold's artifact dump/recur very well, and as people mentioned above it's useful in both early and late game.

Losheel, Clockwork Scholar is limited to artifact creature and draws only one card, which is understandable, consider there are so many ways to create 4+ tokens per turn. It's not versatile, but it works where it counts.

Monologue Tax, why does it only trigger once? Why not make it 4cc and make it trigger infinite times after the second spell? Make it WWW if they're so concerned with it being in non-monowhite decks.

Pilgrim of the Ages deserves more credit. Instead of seeing it as a 9cc ramping, see it as a 2/1 creature with unconditional land fetch and recur ability attached. And remember, fetching land means thinning the deck, which is also another subtle advantage in white, much like Verge Rangers letting you see the top of your library.

Scholarship Sponsor is political and not bad for battling an archenemy, but as mentioned above it could've benefit you with extra lands for the number of people you helped. Good deeds ought to be rewarded, no?

Secret Rendezvous is bad. It combos with Alms Collector, but I don't see why you can't get something extra or have the opponent getting one less. Words of Wisdom is a perfect example on what a what drawing could be. Maro says white is worst at drawing, that doesn't mean it has to be THAT much worse than other colors.

[DirkGently]

Secret Rendezvous is bad. It combos with Alms Collector, but I don't see why you can't get something extra or have the opponent getting one less. Words of Wisdom is a perfect example on what a what drawing could be. Maro says white is worst at drawing, that doesn't mean it has to be THAT much worse than other colors.

I really don't get the comparisons between words of wisdom and SR. Words of wisdom, outside of synergy, does essentially nothing. You spend 2 mana, and all players are +1 card. White, lacking anything like Nekusar, the Mindrazer in the CZ to exploit enemies drawing a card, would almost certainly never run such a trash-tier card. SR, in a 4-player situation, distributes the same number of cards to your collective opponents as words of wisdom, except it gives you 3 cards instead of 2. Seems well worth the extra 1 mana and sorcery speed, even completely ignoring the political implications (which as I've mentioned is a pretty poor way to analyze it).

If you're really champing for symmetrical draw (which isn't totally insane for mono-white - after all, if everyone has tons of cards already, then enemy card draw is rendered relatively meaningless), just run Howling Mine and company.

[Rumpy5897]

To take a broader look at the issue - as already stated in the thread, white is a wicked good support colour. Its removal prowess in particular is unparalleled. However, its Achilles' heel is card advantage. You can have a perfectly competent Wx deck, with white actually contributing and not just existing in the identity, if you just have some other colour do the drawing. Given the fact three of my four primer lists feature white in them, I'd like to think I have some amount of feel for this

In order to have white stand on its own, the card advantage situation needs to be addressed. I believe the best way to do this is to really have its board be resilient - an all too common pattern is to have white commit stuff, the stuff goes down, and everybody has a hand to rebuild from while white does not. The best way the last few years of experimentation found to do this is effective recursion. I'd like to single out Brought Back and Cosmic Intervention, as they're both phenomenal cards. Early game, combine them with fetches for surprisingly good ramp. Late game, use them to turn the tides on interaction and emerge relatively unscathed from the event that was going to set you back. I feel this is a direction they should pursue aggressively, and also ensure that fetches are accessible and affordable (which would obviously be good for the game as a whole). Reactive board protection rather than recursion is less robust, as it loses the ramp doubling functionality. Nevertheless, it is still a very powerful form of symmetry breaking, and this makes Semester's End my favourite white card in STX/C21.

Having white be rewarded for rules breaking and lack of parity is a good direction to pursue as well. I mean, we all know this - Smothering Tithe became a staple because it did this, and did this in a powerful manner. Subsequent iterations lacked the raw oomph to impact the game, and Monologue Tax is a good example of R&D cautiously exploring this space. You could be a little less cautious as far as I'm concerned Archaeomancer's Map is an interesting card, as in its base form it's pretty close to a Cultivate, arriving as the format at large realises that Rampant Growth is preferable. The Burgeoning part requires consistent draw to make work, which is kind of funny in a way. The card will find a home in slow, grindy, draw-happy Wx decks that care about ramping. Ephara comes to mind as a good example.

Another thing what white got to have is more creative wiping, often on the cheap, and as such less disruptive to crack. Plan your deck around Citywide Bust or Slaughter the Strong and you can eke out another form of advantage that way. The least beat-around-the-bush form of this comes in Winds of Abandon, which is known as "Whift" in my group on account of its impact. The disruption it offers in the current specialised deck climate tends to outweigh the ramp sweetener, and there's also the relationship between deck power, creature density and number of basics. In short, you'll probably be ramping the weaker decks more. Whift is also the most recent example of this phenomenon that comes to mind, so it's been about two years since we last got one of these.

I'm happy with how conditional the white help has been, as the last thing we need is to homogenise the colour pie. Red got to find its impulse draw, white's rooting around in tricksiness and rules lawyering, and that's good. I honestly think that card advantage is more pressing to resolve than ramp, as most green-less decks use rocks anyway. But it's important to do so creatively, like via recursion. I'm not a fan of black getting enchantment removal and blue dabbling in artifact exiling, you could technically print an Anguished Unmaking in {U/B} now.

[Dragoon]

Another thing what white got to have is more creative wiping, often on the cheap, and as such less disruptive to crack. Plan your deck around Citywide Bust or Slaughter the Strong and you can eke out another form of advantage that way. The least beat-around-the-bush form of this comes in Winds of Abandon, which is known as "Whift" in my group on account of its impact. The disruption it offers in the current specialised deck climate tends to outweigh the ramp sweetener, and there's also the relationship between deck power, creature density and number of basics. In short, you'll probably be ramping the weaker decks more. Whift is also the most recent example of this phenomenon that comes to mind, so it's been about two years since we last got one of these.

I just realized that Winds of Abandon actually enables white catch-up ramp, interesting.

[pokken]

Man I love Winds of Abandon. I look for almost any excuse to play it over other board wipes now, even over Hour of Revelation because it ends games to wipe and then be able to alpha strike.

Another card that I think white could do with a lot more of is Akroma's Will. That card is pure fire as the kids say. Basically 4 mana instant speed Craterhoof Behemoth in a lot of situations.

[Sinis]

My usual card stores don't seem to have Winds of Abandon in stock and haven't for quite some time. I really want a copy, and here I am, without one.

[Legend]

Secret Rendezvous is crap...

It's going straight into my cube for that reason. That and because it's kind of weird. It's obvious what R&D is going for, right ... White is the color with the most symmetrical effects, hence its version of CA could/should be symmetrical as a point of distinction from other colors' CA. But symmetrical draw is pure horseshit in practice. Punishing opponents for drawing cards is the better design path to take.

[Sinis]

But symmetrical draw is pure horseshit in practice.

I mean, it's this card in particular that's feels so bad. I'm not even opposed to symmetrical draw. But why did it have to be a 1 mana discount on harmonize or concentrate?

[ISBPathfinder]

I agree a bit on both sides of the argument in here. White got some new things and I think its a step in the right direction, I also don't think that these new cards are magically going to make white's issues disapear or stop being a thing. We need more density of cards at or above this level yet for white.

• Less Lands Concept - I think we got a lot of improvement on this concept between the time of Commander Legends and these commander decks. I think some of the issue is still that we don't have a density of cards for the less lands concept for me to feel like I can go all in on it outside of potentially some niche decks. What we need is another 3-5 cards on the level of Keeper of the Accord or a commander option that can do something on this front. I think we have a few strong support cards for this concept but a lot of the support cards we have for less lands are actually a lot weaker and I am not convinced they are worth pushing this concept yet.
• Monarch - Its not from this set but from commander legends we got Court of Grace and Archon of Coronation. I think that white by far has the best monarch play in that there are so many things that white has access to to clear the board (which doesn't touch monarch), flying evasion, and vigilant beaters to make a white defensive deck strategy really strong for monarch. I don't think that monarch fits every white deck by any means but there are some defensive / evasive white strategies that play it REALLY well and I think a lot of people haven't given mono white's monarch much of a chance. Palace Jailer is also an absolute monster of a card that I totally didn't believe in until I played it.

Secret Rendezvous is such a joke of a card for that mana. I actually don't think they can allow it to cost any less but they need to not make it symmetrical in its draw. It should have been something like "you draw three cards and one opponent draws a single card." Essentially I think this type of effect needs to give you a MUCH stronger benefit than any of your opponents given that you are the one who has to cast the card and spend mana. Anytime you symmetrically help someone else its almost immediately a bad effect (the exception would be like if it costs so little that you immediately win behind it).

[Sinis]

I agree a bit on both sides of the argument in here. White got some new things and I think its a step in the right direction, I also don't think that these new cards are magically going to make white's issues disapear or stop being a thing. We need more density of cards at or above this level yet for white.

I think I'm coming across as more negative than I am. My disappointment is strictly with STX and C21. I think Commander Legends (and really most of 2020) was really good to white.

I think from-behind-ramp is an acceptable mechanic, but the cards need to be a lot better (like Keeper of the Accord). The trouble becomes that you end up with dead cards when you 'catch up', and white can often ill afford to have dead cards while having poor card draw.

I also think they're still moving along some of the same lines that are still solidly white's: Semester's End is functionally quite rare (with Ghostway and Eerie Interlude for creatures, and nothing else for planeswalkers).

[RedCheese]

Not impressed with these new cards. Still believe monarch should have been White's main card draw mechanic.

Archaeomancer's Map is the second most overrated card of this set. I think people are really overrating it by a lot just because mono white is that bad. Maybe the high price of it is what pissing me of about it. The card is fine as it is but no way it solves White's ramping problem as it has too many things holding it back like 3 mana cost, restricted to plains and needs to have an opponent way ahead of you to "catch up". Is still playable in mono white but isn't in no way a stapple.

Monologue Tax is the most overrated card of the set. What a joke.

[DirkGently]

But symmetrical draw is pure horseshit in practice. Punishing opponents for drawing cards is the better design path to take.

Punishing is always much weaker and harder to play. Everyone lost their minds for Confounding Conundrum, but not many people are actually playing it. And that's about as free of a hate card as it gets. Partly that's psychological - it feels bad to run a card that might not do anything, and that doesn't really fit with what your deck is trying to do. Hence why the deck that runs in the most is Yorion, because he can justify running it as a blink target, making the hate incidental instead of the only reason to run the card. But also because there's a lot of stuff in magic, and it's hard to know what's going to be important and what's not going into a game sight-unseen. Rest in Peace can be the most important card at the table, or it can be totally irrelevant, but either way it's costing you a card. It's always a gamble.

Spirit of the Labyrinth already exists and is pretty potent for 2 mana, but it doesn't see a ton of play. The decks that seem to run it most often are classically stax decks, since denying enemy resources is their main game plan.

Also, draw punishing tends to annoy people, a lot, which doesn't play well with white being good from behind. If you're weak and also annoying people, you're probably dead. Plus it's just not super fun for most people. I think most people would prefer fewer hullbreachers instead of more.

It's frustrating to argue about SR because everyone who hates it seems to mostly just say "it sucks" without justification. Would you care to elaborate?

I mean, it's this card in particular that's feels so bad. I'm not even opposed to symmetrical draw. But why did it have to be a 1 mana discount on harmonize or concentrate?

Because a single opponent drawing 3 (1) is frequently not a big deal and (2) can be an upside in the right circumstance. In fact it's not even a particularly rare circumstance.

For the sake of argument, let's ignore table disparity (though, again, that's a very important part of the card) and imagine everyone is exactly equal in power level. You're casting SR and everyone else is hoping to be the target, so they're all making deals with you. Offers to blow up someone else's stuff, to attack someone else, to protect you with a fog, to cast a spell that benefits you, etc. So how good of a deal is reasonable to expect?

To abstract a bit, let's weigh the value of each offer in terms of card-value. You're getting +2, and giving +3 to someone else when you cast SR. What would another player offer? Even if their offer hurts them as much as it helps you (which usually won't be the case - the classic "I won't attack you" oftentimes doesn't hurt the offerer hardly at all, but benefits the recipient greatly, which is why it's such a common deal) they'd be well-advised to offer at LEAST 2 cards worth of value. Because not only do they net a positive benefit - +1 card overall - they also deny that benefit to an opponent. 2 of their opponents getting +2 and +3 cards (total of -5, or -5/3 against the table) is a disaster. Them getting +1 card and one opponent get +4 cards (-1/3 against the table) is significantly less disastrous for them. You may notice that, if someone does make you an offer of this value - which they are logically motivated to make - this makes SR significantly MORE powerful than Harmonize, at a lower mana cost. Played well, it's going to be easy to get very solid deals made in exchange for the other half of SR.

Now that's generally going to be dependent on (1) you're not ahead, or people probably won't make deals with you, or at least not great deals (2) there are still 4, or at least 3, players still in the game. With 3, people are actually more motivated to make deals in theory, but in practice with fewer players it's more likely that one is unable or unwilling to make a deal and thus dry up the market. So those factors definitely put a damper in the strength of SR. But I don't really see people talking about that, so much as "'symmetrical' = bad". And it's not even symmetrical!

I actually don't think they can allow it to cost any less but they need to not make it symmetrical in its draw.

It's not symmetrical.

If SR says "everyone draws 3" I'd be the first person in line hucking rocks at it.

It should have been something like "you draw three cards and one opponent draws a single card."

That would make it an arguably-superior divination in 1v1, and a far superior divination in 4p.

Draw 3 an opponent draws 2 would be conceivable.

That said, I really think you're focusing on the sillier half of the equation here. Letting a single opponent draw 3 cards - when you get to pick the opponent - is generally not a big deal, so long as you're not ahead. There's usually someone who's behind, where giving them cards is as likely to be help as hindrance.

People comparing SR unfavorably to actually-symmetrical effects like wheels and Words of Wisdom blows my mind. It's like people don't even remember the brokenness of Trade Secrets.

Essentially I think this type of effect needs to give you a MUCH stronger benefit than any of your opponents given that you are the one who has to cast the card and spend mana.

I don't follow the logic that it has to benefit you more than any single opponent, instead of more than your collective opponents. What matters at the end of the day is your personal chance to win the game - it really doesn't matter what your opponents' individual chances to win are, as long as you're coming out ahead. Yes, one opponent is likely to get a big boost in win% from SR, but you're getting +2 cards for 3 mana plus whatever deal you've managed to score. That's likely to put you a ways ahead too. Bummer for the people who didn't make you a good enough deal, though. They're pretty SOL. More motivation for them to offer more in the future.

SR strikes me as the kind of card that people are going to get really angry about and say "you shouldn't play that card, it sucks!" because they lost thanks to SR putting two of their opponents way ahead, and they don't understand what makes the card good. I keep imagining that angry crying guy meme. You know the one.

[pokken]

Because a single opponent drawing 3 (1) is frequently not a big deal and (2) can be an upside in the right circumstance. In fact it's not even a particularly rare circumstance.

In my opinion in commander Secret Rendezvous is better than Harmonize in commander. People play Harmonize a lot.

People dramatically overstate the risk of your furthest behind opponent drawing 3 cards and dramatically understate the difference between 3 mana and 4.

A really, really high percentage of the time, making your most behind opponent be back in the game is going to help you win more than it hurts. The exception is mainly aggro decks, and aggro decks don't tend to have a ton of energy to expend drawing cards except through combat.

[ISBPathfinder]

I actually don't think they can allow it to cost any less but they need to not make it symmetrical in its draw.

It's not symmetrical.

If SR says "everyone draws 3" I'd be the first person in line hucking rocks at it.

It should have been something like "you draw three cards and one opponent draws a single card."

That would make it an arguably-superior divination in 1v1, and a far superior divination in 4p.

Draw 3 an opponent draws 2 would be conceivable.

That said, I really think you're focusing on the sillier half of the equation here. Letting a single opponent draw 3 cards - when you get to pick the opponent - is generally not a big deal, so long as you're not ahead. There's usually someone who's behind, where giving them cards is as likely to be help as hindrance.

People comparing SR unfavorably to actually-symmetrical effects like wheels and Words of Wisdom blows my mind. It's like people don't even remember the brokenness of Trade Secrets.

Essentially I think this type of effect needs to give you a MUCH stronger benefit than any of your opponents given that you are the one who has to cast the card and spend mana.

I don't follow the logic that it has to benefit you more than any single opponent, instead of more than your collective opponents. What matters at the end of the day is your personal chance to win the game - it really doesn't matter what your opponents' individual chances to win are, as long as you're coming out ahead. Yes, one opponent is likely to get a big boost in win% from SR, but you're getting +2 cards for 3 mana plus whatever deal you've managed to score. That's likely to put you a ways ahead too. Bummer for the people who didn't make you a good enough deal, though. They're pretty SOL. More motivation for them to offer more in the future.

SR strikes me as the kind of card that people are going to get really angry about and say "you shouldn't play that card, it sucks!" because they lost thanks to SR putting two of their opponents way ahead, and they don't understand what makes the card good. I keep imagining that angry crying guy meme. You know the one.

I actually never felt that Trade Secrets was that powerful as a one time effect to be honest. My understanding of why it was banned was more or less people who were kingmakering each other in comp games by letting each other draw their entire decks. Its also more powerful than what I am suggesting the white effect should be in that it draws four cards for 3 mana not 3 cards for 3. The most important part of the effect is going to start off being how many cards do you draw for the mana but I just don't feel that draw three for three also deserves to give an opponent three cards still.

I am not trying to say that the effect of Trade Secrets is bad, but you essentially have to be playing a combo deck or be 100% sure that your opponent doesn't have a combo to cast that spell. If you cast that and target someone who WHOOPSIE has a Thassa's Oracle in their deck you essentially just punted.

I think a one shot use Trade Secrets is only.... ok.

[Venedrex]

Maro recently mentioned that a version of Rhystic Study that only drew one card per turn would be OK. That is more along the lines of the card draw I believe white should get. More cards similar to Mangara, the Diplomat is what I would like to see. Also, as far as Secret Rendezvous goes, has anyone here put it in their decks, or is planning on running it? I would be very curious to see the results of it being played.