Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?

Learning/Lessons - what's your take for commander?

1) Learning should strictly be rummaging, lessons should strictly be crappy cards you can play in the 99.
19
30%
2) I'd consider letting someone have a lesson-board and fetch cards with learn spells, but withhold the right to revoke that permission depending on results.
14
22%
3) I'd always allow anyone to use a lesson-board and fetch cards with learn spells, but it shouldn't be allowed as part of the official rules.
5
8%
4) I think the official rules should allow a stipulation for a lesson-board and it should be default legal to fetch cards with learn spells.
4
6%
5) I think wishboards should be fully legal, including lessons.
12
19%
6) I think sideboards should be fully legal including lessons and sideboarding between games.
5
8%
7) I think 2-3, but would have a restriction based on size outside of the traditional 15-card limit (or something else?)
1
2%
8) I think 4-6, but would have a restriction based on size outside of the traditional 15-card limit (or something else?)
4
6%
 
Total votes: 64

onering
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Another thing that occurred to me is that we're adding a ton of tutors to the format, and is there really any desire/call to add more consistency to the format?
I don't think wishes quite fall into this category because they're getting cards from outside the game, and generally exclusively for themselves. It can't increase your chances to put together X combo if the combo is in your deck. I guess it could fetch an alternative piece of the combo if it's a flexible combo, but then that piece could just be in the deck. I'm assuming you wouldn't consider a modal spell "adding more consistency to the format" (obviously it kind of does, but one that I think everyone accepts).

Tutors trade efficiency for flexible - with a limited selection of options from the wishboard, I'd say it limits the flexibility pretty significantly to where it's a reasonable tradeoff and not an easy inclusion, in the way dtutor is.
onering wrote:
3 years ago
It just keeps coming back to the pro wish side arguing, ineffectively, that it won't be as bad people who have tested it say it is, and that's just laughable.
I think changes like this are really hard to test because it's almost totally dependent on how people are going into it. If you want to show that people won't use narrow hate cards, you just...don't. And vice versa.

That said, I think it's probably inevitable that, with 15 slots, none of which are competing for traditional sideboard space, you're going to end up putting in some narrow hate cards just because what else are you going to do? You've got a couple wincons, a couple value cards, some ramp, some removal...once you've covered your general-purpose bases so that the card is always at least decent, the best option to noticeably improve the value of your wish are narrow but high impact cards.

15 cards makes sense for 60-card formats because the goal is to put in enough cards to your deck to consistently effect the matchup (and those cards have to be divvied across the various popular archetypes), so it's sort of people's default assumption on wishboard size. But in a format like commander where you're designing the wishboard from the ground up with totally different goals, 15 is an ABSURD number imo. I think anyone who puts thought into it will probably come down somewhere between 3 and 8 being ideal.
He's also actually articulated what the format would gain, allowing wishes to operate as cool modal spells.
I think the bigger reason for me is the presumable increase of these sorts of cards as time goes on. Lessons to me are a really good example of when the format SHOULD allow sideboards - they don't have any of the problems that traditional wishes bring to the table and most everyone agrees they look basically harmless - but we can't because we're tied to rule 13. If wishes really are a problem, I'd much much rather just ban every single wish so that new cool mechanics like lessons - and whatever the future may hold - can work as intended.
I think that's a perfectly viable suggestion. I can't think of any wishes that I'd be sad to see outright banned in such a move. Baby Karn is probably the only one that is relevant, and I'm not even sure he'd actually need a ban (the biggest hate cards he can search up do what he already does by being in play). Same for the cards that grab Eldrazi from outside the game. And it does so elegantly.

I still prefer your 3 wishes suggestion (potentially up to 5), as it has the benefit of making the wishes into cool modal spells that actually do something, and enables what they bring to the table without it getting out of control or falling into the problem of accessing 10 different narrow hate cards. Being able to have access to a narrow hate card that deals with a meta boogeyman as well as a broad answer and a threat is a perfectly reasonable and healthy thing for the format IMO. I also still favor using the CZ for things like lessons and companions in such a case, to allow for running more than the limited wishboard can fit and to allow running both wishes and lessons (really, a deck doing that isn't going to be oppressive). I know that right now lessons mostly suck and there's little reason to run very many, but that could change in the future if the mechanic is well received (I don't think it will be, but I'm hardly Carnac the Magnificent). It also allows for running multiple such mechanics, like lessons, and companion, and whatever the next such mechanic wizards poops out will be.

I checked the comprehensive rules and there's nothing that prevents the CZ from being a place where you can store cards like these, and there's nothing in print that can pull non commander spells from there. Allowing these mechanics to function from the CZ is as simple as the change the RC made to companions. From a design standpoint, it makes more sense than using sideboards, as the CZ exists in every game whether or not its being utilized. Lessons are designed in a way that you can rifle through your binder for them in a kitchen table casual game, so I cut them more slack, but companions have to meet specific deck requirements and be announced before the game starts, so there was no excuse there, using the CZ should have been obvious. The CZ is supposed to be a zone that cannot be interacted with, but game mechanics by their nature override basic rules, and they already print cards that interact with commanders in the CZ. I think this precedent, cards that can interact with the CZ but only for a very narrow subset of cards with a specific characteristic (a commander, lessons, etc) designed to be used in the CZ makes sense. From a flavor perspective its hilarious, as I can imagine a couple of partner commanders hanging out in the CZ to be cast along with 12 lessons (notes? textbooks? some dollar store not-Hogwarts professor writing on a chalkboard?), handful of emblems, and a giant kraken that insists he's someone's pet.

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Serenade wrote:
3 years ago
[generic "ban all tutors" post]
Been discussed it's just not really practical. Which land tutors do you allow, do you ban fetchlands by accident including evolving wilds, etc?

It really takes more out of the format than it adds. Tutors make a lot of things work that are cool and narrow tutors are really fun to build around (things like trinket mage packages and crop rotation packages etc.).

The other big thing is you basically force everyone.who wants any kind of consistency to play blue. The velocity of cantrips and dig in blue become the defining feature of the format and we already have that format (legacy :p). Blue is already the best color and gets like twice as good. Impulse becomes one of the premier cards in the format lol.

Tutors are actually a great case for rule 0. Cutting back on generic tutors is like the #1 thing a playgroup can talk about easily and even socialize across large groups with a bit of effort.. I've done it in two separate groups.
I think the answer is actually just to ban the top 3 or so tutors and see what happens. I don't think the goal is to kill all tutoring, but to just make tutors less effective and thus less played.
It also feeds the secondary goal of making combo less powerful.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

I don't really have a strong opinion about these, but I came across this article on WotC's website, concerning Strixhaven's implementation on Arena. I figured it might be interesting for the current conversation.

The relevant part can be found in the "Changes to Best-of-One Sideboards" section:
Starting with the Strixhaven release on April 15, Constructed Best-of-One matches will use a 7-card sideboard. Best-of-Three matches will continue to use 15-card sideboards.

Why are we making this change? Well, cards in sideboards basically have two uses. One is to change your deck between games in a Best-of-Three match to better configure it against the deck your opponent is playing. The other, used in both types of matches, is what is frequently called a "wishboard," a group of cards that can be brought into a game from outside of it with cards that have that kind of ability.

Learn in Strixhaven is a great example of this. In a Best-of-Three match, players using cards with learn are forced to figure out how to divide their fifteen sideboard slots between Lessons and cards that improve their deck against certain matchups. In a single-game match, only one use is applicable, so there would be no reason not to use all fifteen sideboard slots on Lessons. This is more than would be expected in a Best-of-Three match. To adjust for this difference, the Play Design and MTG Arena teams arrived at the decision to limit the sideboard in single-game matches to seven slots.

Players can still use the same decks as they do today for both types of matches, but only seven cards will be in the Best-of-One sideboard. By default as we convert to this change, it will be the first seven cards listed, but of course you can edit your decks to make it whichever cards you want, or only have seven cards in your sideboard if you're just planning on using your deck for Best-of-One.

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RadiantSophia
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Post by RadiantSophia » 3 years ago

I have an opinion about this, but it is not listed in the options above, so I voted 1, as my idea would be stricter than any of the other options. I would let some one play a specific lesson from outside the game tied to a specific learn card. When that specific learn card is drawn the could put that specific lesson card in their hand. That lesson would have to be one that is otherwise not in their deck. If they had 2 or more learn cards, each would be tied to it's specific pre-assigned lesson, which would, of course, be the only way to play that lesson. I.e. it could not also be in the deck, or assigned to a different learn card.

End transmission.

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