Swing out = Blow Out - mono white

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Yeah I really want people swinging primarily at other people, so I can pump my dudes and/or breena. But I also want to 1) kill them if they dare to swing at me and 2) sometimes kill them when they try to alpha strike people:P.

Simulacrum is quite efficient but I don't think it'll work because it doesn't beat Craterhoof Behemoth - we really need to prevent damage in EDH to stuff infinite sized creatures and overwhelming damage.

Honestly not 100% sure I'll be playing Inkshield since only working on combat damage is slightly narrow, but it is quite strong.

I think Batwing Brume is on the cusp honestly, most of the time people are gonna be attacking with 10 x 30/30s or whatever so brume has some limitations.



No Mercy just flat out doesn't work with planeswalkers unfortunately (same as Dread).



Definitely appreciate the ideas, seems like this effect largely is just not in the orzhov pie.

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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 2 years ago

Do you use Stuffy Doll or anything like that? If so, Martyrdom is a pretty cool card. I think it's a pretty cool card anyways, I've been experimenting with it ever since building Feather, the Redeemed. The best use has been with Stuffy Doll variants though. Blasphemous Act is bae here too...can kill an entire table if you have Brash Taunter.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
2 years ago
Do you use Stuffy Doll or anything like that? If so, Martyrdom is a pretty cool card. I think it's a pretty cool card anyways, I've been experimenting with it ever since building Feather, the Redeemed. The best use has been with Stuffy Doll variants though.
The unfortunate part about the design is that because of all the walkers and the glue to support that the room for synergistic stuff like that is low. I need cards to be independently powerful in this category, with I'd say Comeuppance being the prototype.

The rules text I'm looking for is "alpha strike me and you lose the game." :P --> Comeuppance

(with extra points for "if you alpha strike anyone, you lose game" lol) --> Angel of the Dire Hour

Stuff like Settle the Wreckage and Angel of the Dire Hour are extra special because I can let them kill their target and then punish them before combat ends,

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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

I see that it was mentioned early on in this thread, but hasn't gotten much more discussion, so I'll bring up Mandate of Peace again. That card's super. It's Fog. It's Silence. It's Stifle (mostly for attack triggers, but there are some nasty ones). It saves a weaker player's skin so they can absorb future damage otherwise headed your way. You can't beat the mana cost either. It isn't retributive, which is what you're looking for primarily, but I think it is a blowout in its own right.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 2 years ago

@pokken
Gotcha. I do love me some Settle the Wreckage. Works as white ramp in a token deck sometimes too. Comeuppance has been great too, I didn't realize the price had climbed so high. Got mine for a couple bucks I think. Gotta say, Mardu seems to be great for that kind of judo playstyle. You get Sunforger and a lot of other goodies in those colors. I always loved Reflect Damage for turning a commander kill around, so unfortunate it's out of range for sunforger
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 2 years ago

@MeowZeDung
I really need to give that card(Mandate of Peace) a try, it's been used against me to great effect but I haven't actually slotted it into anything yet.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
2 years ago
@MeowZeDung
I really need to give that card(Mandate of Peace) a try, it's been used against me to great effect but I haven't actually slotted it into anything yet.
I love it in a Sunforger package.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
2 years ago
Gotta say, Mardu seems to be great for that kind of judo playstyle
I kinda want to stay in one or two colors - but yeah, red has a lot of sick stuff in there. Sadly tis mostly targeted though or limited, e.g. Deflecting Palm.

I think Esper is probably better with the addition of Aetherspouts / Aetherize type effects.

That said, I think Breena is pretty uniquely positioned even more so than Mangara at encouraging people to attack - especially since she kinda encourages others to *not* attack me, Edric style, and presents a nasty threat on her own.

We'll see though, I could be misinterpreting how Breena's abilities will play out politically.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Simulacrum is quite efficient but I don't think it'll work because it doesn't beat Craterhoof Behemoth - we really need to prevent damage in EDH to stuff infinite sized creatures and overwhelming damage.
Honestly you really need something to direct it towards too. A Theros god will soak up the damage, but something like Brash Taunter or Stuffy Doll is probably your best bet, of which only one of these is doable. Oh, High Priest of Penance too, although it will only trigger once in this application. I think the further you look into it in this shell the flimsier it looks trying to make this choice work.

Presumably you're running Duelist's Heritage right? I only realised recently this is usable for every single combat step. In a similar vein, Angelic Skirmisher has been really good for tilting combat in my favour in my Bruna, the Fading Light build. I know these aren't exactly what you're after, but they can both help you soften the blows for yourself and Heritage can help you by knocking other folks out more quickly.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think Esper is probably better with the addition of Aetherspouts / Aetherize type effects.
It certainly adds a lot blue shenanigans. Man, I love me some Reins of Power or Domineering Will to mess with things too. I might try to push Martyrdom again by adding that it is any amount of damage from any source until the end of the turn (assuming the targeted creature survives). Another white card I've wanted to try out, maybe in a Eight-and-a-Half-Tails build or something is Martyr's Cry.

Orzhov Advokist seems pretty neat for Breena...encourage sending things away from you for a while and beef their stuff up for a nice Comeuppance. @toctheyounger Duelist's Heritage is just plain fun, and can help ensure that Comeuppance kills a target with a higher toughness than power.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 2 years ago

Have you considered Rout and/or Fated Retribution? There's a plethora of cards like Semester's End now that can be used in response to save your stuff. Not cheap mana wise, but effective.

EDIT: Wanted to add that cards like Cosmic Intervention can also be used to save your stuff. White is getting some pretty cool tools in this direction. Makes Armageddon even more evil and...viable.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Simulacrum is quite efficient but I don't think it'll work because it doesn't beat Craterhoof Behemoth - we really need to prevent damage in EDH to stuff infinite sized creatures and overwhelming damage.
Honestly you really need something to direct it towards too. A Theros god will soak up the damage, but something like Brash Taunter or Stuffy Doll is probably your best bet, of which only one of these is doable. Oh, High Priest of Penance too, although it will only trigger once in this application. I think the further you look into it in this shell the flimsier it looks trying to make this choice work.

Presumably you're running Duelist's Heritage right? I only realised recently this is usable for every single combat step. In a similar vein, Angelic Skirmisher has been really good for tilting combat in my favour in my Bruna, the Fading Light build. I know these aren't exactly what you're after, but they can both help you soften the blows for yourself and Heritage can help you by knocking other folks out more quickly.
Heritage might be ok, most of my "bomb" creatures are taken up with monarch themed stuff like Archon of Coronation. Gonna try that new fog archon too I think.
WolfWhoWanders wrote:
2 years ago
It certainly adds a lot blue shenanigans. Man, I love me some Reins of Power or Domineering Will to mess with things too. I might try to push Martyrdom again by adding that it is any amount of damage from any source until the end of the turn (assuming the targeted creature survives). Another white card I've wanted to try out, maybe in a Eight-and-a-Half-Tails build or something is Martyr's Cry.

Orzhov Advokist seems pretty neat for Breena...encourage sending things away from you for a while and beef their stuff up for a nice Comeuppance. @toctheyounger Duelist's Heritage is just plain fun, and can help ensure that Comeuppance kills a target with a higher toughness than power.
Advokist might be OK, seems kinda fun anyway, not sure I'll have a slot for it given the lower power-per-card.
WolfWhoWanders wrote:
2 years ago
Have you considered Rout and/or Fated Retribution? There's a plethora of cards like Semester's End now that can be used in response to save your stuff. Not cheap mana wise, but effective.

EDIT: Wanted to add that cards like Cosmic Intervention can also be used to save your stuff. White is getting some pretty cool tools in this direction. Makes Armageddon even more evil and...viable.
I'm playing intervention in my ramp package and it's dope with walkers, so yeah.

Rout et al - I am running *gasp* *zero* symmetrical sweepers in this deck. I know that's sacrilege with walkers, but I want to keep all the creatures on the board and encourage the game to move rapidly toward an end, keep people swinging, etc. and get life totals low so I can pick people off.

I want Breena on board the entire game to defend my walkers, draw cards, pump my dudes, etc.

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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think Esper is probably better with the addition of Aetherspouts / Aetherize type effects.
My Chromium deck plays around in this type of area to a degree and I really enjoy it.

Blue adds a few other key things also. Archaeomancer, Snapcaster Mage and Mission Briefing let you reuse these types of surprise cards.

Various Sirens and other blue creatures let you force attacks others may not want to make (red can do this with goad effects as well of course)

I love Portal Mage. Against a swarm it isn't a big deal but when something big swings it can be amazing.

If you were to consider Esper colors you might get some ideas from my list (which I tend to mess with/adjust fairly often, there are a lot of fun effects to screw with combat in these colors) , even if you ran another commander.

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

I think that this deck is probably better in Jeskai; Deflecting Palm, Deflecting Swat, many cards in blue, etc. I think Mono-white lacks the card draw necessary to leverage things like Vengeful Dreams, nor is their the appropriate volume of cards like Comeuppance (the reason why you want 6 of them is because you're 5 cards short for this strategy). You're also missing clutch tutors to counter a strategy. I feel like this would work well with something like Mystical Teachings where you could find the thing that blows someone out the hardest (or Mystical Tutor + instant speed draw)

While they're not exactly blowouts, there are a few flash creatures that hurt other strategies; Containment Priest, Hushwing Gryff, Aven Mindcensor.

Lapse of Certainty will stop a wincon and give people an impetus to attack someone who will table something dire in a turn.

Uh, Hallowed Moonlight, Rout and Fated Retribution are favourites of mine. Honourable mentions to Debt of Loyalty, Intervention Pact.

Maybe Reverse the Sands for the post-Angel's Grace turn?

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Shining Shoal [/card]

You don't even need to have mana open.

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Post by SocorroTortoise » 2 years ago

Kami of False Hope works more as a rattlesnake than a blowout most of the time but could still be worth consideration. If you have any ways to flash in creatures or reanimate at instant speed (easier with black in the deck), you can catch some people off guard with it. Being easier to reuse than the instant/sorcery options has value too.
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Post by weltkrieg » 2 years ago

In black/white, you can also consider Children of Korlis . It's less of a gotcha, but it can sure make you hard to kill.

I really like red/white better for this. Red/white is better at forcing combat and has some gotcha effects of its own. Boros Fury-Shield is a particular favorite of mine. Captain's Maneuver and Reflect Damage aren't bad, either. Of course, Brash Taunter and similar have already been mentioned though they are not particularly "gotchas." Razia, Boros Archangel would seem like a natural commander for this archetype, but she's 8 mana and not particularly impactful otherwise.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I did finally get this deck constructed in Orzhov:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=35495&p=141104

I could barely fit cards in there at all much less many suggestions, but I'm glad to have this reference thread :)

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