Velomachus Lorehold, what's your take?

[Cyberium]

Velomachus Lorehold

The next elder dragon is here, and I like him as well. Narset lite though he may be, Velomachus warrants a lot less ire.

While Velomachus's ability triggers base on his attack power, I think a good question to ask is: Does he need to go beyond 5? Some of the best spells, including those granting extra combat, are 5cc or below, meaning that Velomachus can potentially one-shot a player (or two) just by attacking and digging and attacking again, and there's that old combo with Sword of Feast and Famine and Aggravated Assault. Even just by filling your deck with some MLD spells, you can lock the game down in your favor by erasing the board over and over again, all the while triggering magecraft for free.

And spells Velomachus used would all go to GY for additional Lorehold abuse.

[pokken]

I mean at least he generates value the turn he drops but it doesn't feel like boros at all to me. The white is..vigilance?:P

And 7 mana is just so much for boros. You're basically committing to playing 10+ artifact ramp spells.

[Hawk]

Five seems like enough for sure. Five hits every "extra combat" card except for Fury of the Horde (which is bad) and Response // Resurgence (which is a shame, but not the end of the world). That's currently only a few cards (Relentless Assault, Waves of Aggression, World at War, Savage Beating, and Seize the Day for those playing along at home) but that seems like a strong core especially with a chance to reuse half of those later.

Five also lets you hit stuff like Tragic Arrogance, Divine Reckoning, or Single Combat to clear the deck (or stuff like Cataclysm or Armageddon if you're feeling nasty). From there I can think of a few more good 5 CMC cards that I wouldn't love paying 5 for but are cool hits off of this dude (Incendiary Command and Lorehold Command chief among them).

I'm personally not interested because it's a lot of set-up required to land a 7 CMC brute in Boros and then you're playing slots - sometimes you swing into an extra combat phase card or mass LD spell and win, sometimes you swing into lands and rocks and cry. But he does seem fun and interesting for sure, and I think deck construction for him can prioritize deck manipulation, ramp, and spicy spells instead of pumping him.

[Sinis]

As Narset lite goes, I think it's a lot lighter than you'd think, IMO. First, noncreature vs. instant/sorcery, second, all vs. one. Countless times I've seen a Narset player flip rocks, but those rocks matter if they have to recast Narset. Further, I've seen Narset draw extra turns/attacks, plus other stuff. Velomachus won't be able to leverage anything else if he flips an extra attack.

I like the dragon, but I don't think it's very good. Part of it is that Boros spells aren't typically value-oriented; you're not going to get a bunch of free cards. You can (potentially) extra-attack your way into a player elimination, but you're still kind of sitting there without having done much else. Second, restricting this to instant/sorcery means that there's some non-zero chance you whiff entirely. Mayael digs five, and I've seen it whiff a ton, too.

Third, this guy costs 7 mana. That's a lot, and recasting will be brutal. I don't want to say "dies to removal", but, I think between the cost and that you don't get anything unless you get to attack... It's punishing, is all I'm saying. To devote 7 mana in Boros to something like this, and possibly not get anything, even if your opponents don't have instant removal.

That said, I don't think going above 5 power is especially necessary. Certain free cards would be nice like Brass's Bounty or Volcanic Vision, but, most of the cards at this cost aren't ones you want to cast during your attack step (is this the deck for Mass Calcify?!). Hero's Blade would be pretty cool if you wanted to get that little kick, but, the reliability isn't there; you'd need to draw your blade, and then flip into the 6-7-8 you wanted to cast.

I would be sorely tempted to play Endless Horizons to thin my deck out a bit in the late game, as well as giving me a source of land drops (with the assumption/prayer that someone doesn't just spite-destroy it).

All that said, I think if you're willing to play Armageddon/Ravages of War, this deck could have legs (but there are probably better ways to play those cards).

[BeneTleilax]

A nice battlecruiser thing. Not too strong, but fun. Narset is deservedly hated, while I think tables will generally smile on this lad, so if you're good at politics, I don't see why you couldn't be a contender at 7-type games. EDH is the home of overcosted splashy oddballs, and when this format loses that, it loses me.

[Mookie]

I'll call out one significant incentive to go to 7: commander damage. Three hits to kill means you need significantly fewer attacks than the five hits you need with a base power of 5. That said, while there are some interesting more-expensive spells to play (ex: Brass's Bounty, Volcanic Vision, Razia's Purification, etc), the fact that Velomachus doesn't cast them by default makes it a bit more difficult to build around them.

[ISBPathfinder]

I am a huge sucker for the Lightning Angel ability setup. Getting it on a seven mana drop is a bit heavy but I think the card advantage / spellcasting he gives is also not irrelevant.

I get the comparison to Narset, Enlightened Master but I actually think he is quite a bit different given that you trade off hexproof for flying / haste. Sure you can be targeted by spot removal but you are better vs sweepers due to that haste fast effect. I think that Narset also is more prone to a goldfishing style of strategy given how hard she is to interact with on top of the extra turns she can sling. I couldn't bring myself to play Narset because she was essentially a "don't play with me" kind of goldfish commander. On the other hand I think that Velomachus Lorehold doesn't play LD as well given the lack of hexproof and doesn't have access to blue extra turns. Oddly enough I find the lack of those things to be a good thing for how I like playing. A big difference between the two though is that Velomachus Lorehold gets to cast his spells on attack where as Narset usually needs to cast her spells post combat (unless they are instants or have flash). It means that Velomachus Lorehold can sweep the board before blocks are made or give himself protection or whatever before being blocked.

Ultimately though, I think that Narset, Enlightened Master gets targeted and hated on by everyone at the table given how hard she is to interact with. I had a game once where I just repeatedly looped and denied a Narset player their commander using a Shard Phoenix to kill his commander 2-3 times. That player was SOOOOOOOO pissed with me but at the same time, I didn't feel bad about doing it given who his commander was. I think that Velomachus Lorehold might oddly get a lot less hate than Narset gets (assuming you don't play LD).

I put together a list to try Velomachus Lorehold out. My current plan is to run extra combat spells but otherwise to be a big boros sort of build with my gameplan being a lot more about being a late game boros deck than being some goldfishy deck like Narset usually ends up being.

[onering]

7 Mana isn't the end of the world in Boris outside of top metas, but if your paying 7 for your commander it better be worth it and better be able to support The double digit artifact ramp you need to run to make it feasible.

Gisella, Blade or Goldnight does. Her abilities are very strong and support strategies that don't need to be too linear or require a critical mass of an effect. I have her built as burn, and she can end the game quickly. You don't need to actually cast too many burn spells once she sticks to finish the table, and you can have your deck filled with ramp and support as well as the burn, and actually have a use for the burn even if you can't get Gisella to stick around.

This dragon, on the other hand, requires too much support and his payoff is too small. You have to get really nasty with the instants and sorceries you choose to make the payoff with the investment and risk, and still need to get lucky.

[Cyberium]

I am a huge sucker for the Lightning Angel ability setup. Getting it on a seven mana drop is a bit heavy but I think the card advantage / spellcasting he gives is also not irrelevant.

I get the comparison to Narset, Enlightened Master but I actually think he is quite a bit different given that you trade off hexproof for flying / haste. Sure you can be targeted by spot removal but you are better vs sweepers due to that haste fast effect. I think that Narset also is more prone to a goldfishing style of strategy given how hard she is to interact with on top of the extra turns she can sling. I couldn't bring myself to play Narset because she was essentially a "don't play with me" kind of goldfish commander. On the other hand I think that Velomachus Lorehold doesn't play LD as well given the lack of hexproof and doesn't have access to blue extra turns. Oddly enough I find the lack of those things to be a good thing for how I like playing. A big difference between the two though is that Velomachus Lorehold gets to cast his spells on attack where as Narset usually needs to cast her spells post combat (unless they are instants or have flash). It means that Velomachus Lorehold can sweep the board before blocks are made or give himself protection or whatever before being blocked.

Haste is definitely a winning trait here, which couples better with extra combat/Exalted leading to one-turn kill, compare to Narset's multiple-turn torture which not even her mother would love. And because we will be using a lot of artifact mana, I'm definitely adding MLD.

Ultimately though, I think that Narset, Enlightened Master gets targeted and hated on by everyone at the table given how hard she is to interact with. I had a game once where I just repeatedly looped and denied a Narset player their commander using a Shard Phoenix to kill his commander 2-3 times. That player was SOOOOOOOO pissed with me but at the same time, I didn't feel bad about doing it given who his commander was. I think that Velomachus Lorehold might oddly get a lot less hate than Narset gets (assuming you don't play LD).

Shard Phoenix is one of my pet cards. Salute to you for using it. Which deck did you use it in?

[ISBPathfinder]

Ultimately though, I think that Narset, Enlightened Master gets targeted and hated on by everyone at the table given how hard she is to interact with. I had a game once where I just repeatedly looped and denied a Narset player their commander using a Shard Phoenix to kill his commander 2-3 times. That player was SOOOOOOOO pissed with me but at the same time, I didn't feel bad about doing it given who his commander was. I think that Velomachus Lorehold might oddly get a lot less hate than Narset gets (assuming you don't play LD).

Shard Phoenix is one of my pet cards. Salute to you for using it. Which deck did you use it in?

I can't recall offhand but I often include it in red decks that have a bit of toolbox via some green creature tutors / Imperial Recruiter type of decks. Its a very reasonable answer to tokens and if I can tutor for it and recur it it tends to be something that makes my list. I really hate dying to tokens though and there are a good number of decks that I see that use token tactics.

I have one in my Daryl deck right now viewtopic.php?f=35&t=31940

[Dragoon]

I really hate dying to tokens though and there are a good number of decks that I see that use token tactics.

If I'm in the right colours, Rakdos Charm is always my go-to answer to both graveyard and token decks.

[hyalopterouslemur]

The spellcasting is probably what works for it, though, yeah, it is weird, but TBH not all rw factions can be the same, and there
s a lot of sameness.

The one issue is the seven mana.