What is your cost ratio on French Vanilla beaters?

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

First, a definition: "French Vanilla" (IMO) means (mostly) evergreen keywords, or cards that possess fairly innocuous text. So, I would say Draco is a French Vanilla beater, as is Abyssal Persecutor. But, something like Kogla, the Titan Ape is very much not.

From time to time a spoiler of some silly beater will come up and I'll think "Is this worth playing?" More often than not, the answer I come to is "no", and believe me, I love to play silly cards like Abyssal Persecutor (believing they're worth playing and me playing them are different things)

This gets me to thinking: How big does something need to be in order to be worth playing?(Absent other considerations like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds.) At what cost ratio?

Obviously Ghalta, Primal Hunger sees a fair bit of play, but when you really look at it, it's nothing more than a 12/12 trample that gets played for cheap. Similarly (though not strictly French Vanilla because of the recursion ability), I've played Metalwork Colossus for free many, many times; a 10/10 for free seems to be acceptable (and it's very frequently free when I'm following a specific kind of gameplan). I've also played Khalni Hydra for free in Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse, though it felt questionable sometimes.

So, where do you stand on this? I've heard some people on Nexus saying that they've played Draco (6 mana 9/9!), but I haven't heard of many people playing something like Ghoultree.

And, as an aside, how do you define French Vanilla? Maybe Metalwork Colossus is FV? Or, Nemesis of Mortals because it's just power and toughness for mana?

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I don't know that there is any cost at which I would play one unless there was critical mass of them.

Basically a 1 mana 50/50 with trample - would I play that? I guess in a Greater Good deck but as a combatant, there just aren't enough ways to get critical mass for it to be something I am that interested in.` Or maybe as a card in a The Mimeoplasm deck?

But if there were 10 functional copies of ~30/30 for 5 mana or something, I might play a deck that used those for something other than sacc'ing for cards? Dunno.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know that there is any cost at which I would play one unless there was critical mass of them.
I mean, it's okay if you don't find stompy vanilla creatures to be interesting enough to play. I assume there's going to be a lot of variance in this; Ghalta, Primal Hunger is in 5% of decks with green on EDHREC at the time of this writing, but that means 95% of the time, people aren't playing him.

But, I don't think the ~10k decks he's in are all Selvala, Gishath, or whatever that's depending on a big power/toughness/elder/dinosaur somewhere. I believe some people are playing Ghalta because it's a 12/12 trample for .

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
I believe some people are playing Ghalta because it's a 12/12 trample for
Basically every time I have ever seen Ghalta someone was doing something specific with him, not just attacking for 12.

Stuff like:
casting Rishkar's Expertise
saccing to Greater Good
making it punch that one green dude that draws a million cards when you punch it
using it to power a huge Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
attaching to a Dragon Throne of Tarkir

So the value is more about the power being used for something else than attacking specifically?

I might be overthinking it I guess though and maybe that's legitimately the use for big beaters.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
I believe some people are playing Ghalta because it's a 12/12 trample for
Basically every time I have ever seen Ghalta someone was doing something specific with him, not just attacking for 12.

Stuff like:
casting Rishkar's Expertise
saccing to Greater Good
making it punch that one green dude that draws a million cards when you punch it
using it to power a huge Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
attaching to a Dragon Throne of Tarkir

So the value is more about the power being used for something else than attacking specifically?

I might be overthinking it I guess though and maybe that's legitimately the use for big beaters.
I mean, Rishkar's Expertise is good at 4ish power in my experience. Obviously it's more exciting at 12 power, but, I don't think people play Ghalta solely for that set of cards. Or, if they are playing that set of cards, they're definitely playing more than just Ghalta.

You may not be overthinking it. Maybe it's how my group wins games? We almost always win through creature combat, and it's rare to have a 'stack' win. We have concessions more than wins out of combat.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
We almost always win through creature combat, and it's rare to have a 'stack' win. We have concessions more than wins out of combat.
Yeah my experience (in various metas) is that creature combat wins are rarely incremental, they're usually explosive murders (sometimes of multiple players) - so you see more like, ghalta, cast overwhelming stampede and kill everyone than cast ghalta, swing with it 4 times?

That said there are some decks like Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma who does a good job of just bashing people for 6-10 multiple times without overextending.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
so you see more like, ghalta, cast overwhelming stampede and kill everyone than cast ghalta, swing with it 4 times?
I'd say it's a mix. There are many games where people get whittled out bit by bit if they don't have any lifegain in their decks (I mean, not Angel's Mercy or anything, stuff like Whip of Erebos or Lyra Dawnbringer in an angel deck, etc.).

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Post by Serenade » 3 years ago

For me it goes back to the usual synergy discussion:
Ghalta, Primal Hunger fits Surrak, the Hunt Caller very well...but less so Radha, Heart of Keld.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

With my Greven, Predator Captain deck I started out with a lot of French Vanilla creatures simply based on their power to cost ratio. However as time has gone on, even in that deck I try and get creatures that have alternative abilities as Magic is choc-full-o-options with abilities and good stats.

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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

As soon as COVID allows it in my country, I plan to test my new Ur-Dragon deck, each time using a different, random selection of 25 dragons from all of Magic's history. I want to include as many candidates as possible and I really like dragons, but man does Rorix Bladewing just look boring :P (I did include Draco and Furyborn Hellkite though).

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

I said this story a bunch but once I cast Eater of Days on turn 4 because my opponent had cast Hushbringer. That play basically made me go down this exact bunny hole except I worded it as "If Eater of Days had no cast drawback, how good would it be?" the subtext being as a dumb beater not as a synergy card with Greater Good or whatnot. I've landed on, it would be pretty solid in any deck that doesn't expect to full table wipe in one turn every game.


I find winning with French Vanilla creatures to be fairly satisfying so I have a decent number of them in my decks. With only minor additional synergies I've found that a good rule of thumb is that a 10/10 with evasion or a 20/20 without evasion. A 20/20 with evasion is a dangerous threat. That's my rule of thumb for how scary a creature is on the battlefield as a french vanilla. The actual power of said french vanilla varies wildly based on deck plan, mana cost and strength of synergies.

I'll go through some of my decks and describe my french vanilla experiences.

My babe Chromium. As my general she's effectively a 14/14 since she 3-shots people with general damage. My synergies are limited to equip Sword of X & Y so that she's harder to block and harder to kill. I also have True Conviction to take her into scary threat land. My deck's game plan is to be a bit more slowly, grindy and controlling. I usually drop her super late to try and close out the game or as a removal magnet to grind my opponents out even more. She does a pretty fantastic job at this. I've killed a lot of people with her. She's definitely not worth anything close to 2WWUUBB but I lead off with her as a supporting example of a base stats of ~14/14 being a fairly capable of ending the game as a french vanilla.

I also run Darksteel Colossus in that deck. It has a bunch more synergies associated with it. Master Transmuter can cheat it in (extra points for copying it with Mirrorworks). Treasure Mage can find it. It also effectively wins the game with Worldslayer. Sometimes the game goes late and I just cast it to beat down with. It's usually serviceable but not exceptional at that state.


In my dredge Progenitus deck I run Lord of Extinction. I have no specific synergy cards, in the deck for it. I just kinda reanimate it as a 40/40 if people don't have much of a board state. It is serviceable but not exceptional. I suppose I have Naya Charm but I've never done that combo.


In Lazav, the Multifarious all my creatures are great for my general to turn into, so none of them are in just as beaters. That being said casting Treacherous Pit-Dweller turn 2 has been extremely solid for me. It way outperforms by getting in for a bunch and threatening any early planeswalkers. If someone wraths early, it sticks around to keep beating face while also likely making me an ally.


Finally, I've got what is basically French Vanilla the deck with my Gishath, Sun's Avatar. I've got Gigantosaurus, Territorial Allosaurus, Shifting Ceratops, Quartzwood Crasher, Raging Swordtooth, Regisaur Alpha, Trapjaw Tyrant, Carnage Tyrant, Burning Sun's Avatar, Etali, Primal Storm, Goring Ceratops, Rampaging Brontodon, Yidaro, Wandering Monster, Wakening Sun's Avatar, Verdant Sun's Avatar, Titanoth Rex, Zacama, Primal Calamity, Ghalta, Primal Hunger and a couple of others. Some of those have other abilities, but basically they're in the deck primarily because of their big french vanilla bodies and secondarily for their abilities. The decks plan is basically ramp, cast Gishath, Sun's Avatar and put a bunch of large french vanilla's into play. Then turn right until everyone else is a corpse. My synergies are double damage so much french vanilla's do more damage and complete board wipes to unclog the board so my next wave of french vanillas can get through. Obviously, these french vanillas are great because they're mostly free. That being said slamming down a Gigantosaurus to make your control opponents burn some answers before you cast Gishath is a pretty common line of play.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

I generally don't play generic vanilla or french vanilla beaters without a consideration. If they are vanilla and french vanilla, then I'm probably running them for their typeline in a tribal deck (you can see below, I have a lot of those). For instance, Varina is running Diregraf Ghoul and Graveyard Marshal (a virtual vanilla, since his ability is atrocious compared to Varina and Cemetery Reaper) because the deck really really wanted a critical mass of 1 and 2-drop zombies to come down ahead of Lords and the Queen herself. But then again, I haven't had a chance to incorporate some newer cards and I'd be quick to say that Marshal is one of the worst cards in the 99; we may have already cut him for Mire Triton or Undead Augur or Corpse Knight and if we haven't, he will be cut for them or for Liliana's Standard Bearer or Murderous Rider // Swift End (even at the higher CMC) as soon as we get them.

A few exceptions (maybe?)
- Gitrog monster runs lots and lots of Boneyard Wurm style creatures, including Wurm-y himself. Some of those creatures have other abilities (Splinterfright and Sewer Nemesis mill, Golgari Grave-Troll has dredge and regen, Nighthowler can do some voltron stuff with bestow, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord has a lot of text) but several more like Liliana's Elite and Revenant are just vanilla or french vanilla beaters. I'd freely admit that isn't optimal, not even in a deck with God-Eternal Rhonas and Pathbreaker Ibex, and I just find it fun :). Given that these are theoretical 40/40s for their CMC, and usually 9/9+s for 2-3 mana, that's where I'm looking I guess.
- Samut's whole schtick is to embody the Fires deck of Masques/Invasion standard, so I'm running classics like Shivan Wurm and Saproling Burst that are effectively just stats - but with all the haste Burst is more than just stats, and Wurm does great work with all the EtBs in the deck. I'd also admit that while Burst has still got it in terms of the ability to blackjack people to death, Shivan Wurm is probably one of the weaker cards in my 99 and first up to be cut when a better EtB/LtB/"whenever ~ attacks" card comes along.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Hawk wrote:
3 years ago
Given that these are theoretical 40/40s for their CMC, and usually 9/9+s for 2-3 mana, that's where I'm looking I guess.
Certainly; my self-mill Adun deck plays Apocalypse Demon and it sometimes feels 'worth it' for an actual 30/30 or 40/40 flying for .

I think I most often feel the question when it's Metalwork Colossus, or especially when a creature has no evasion. I sometimes play a (conditionally) free 10/10 and think "hmm. It might do something". But if it were unconditionally free, I think it'd be totally good. So, there's clearly (for non-pokken people) some power and toughness threshold that needs to be met, and some superior p/t:cost ratio that also needs to be met. Also, some range of triviality for how low that cost can get, since people aren't in the habit of paying a ton of mana for something with like, 8/8 printed stats.

I think stuff like Nighthowler is perfect for considering this. Nighthowler is just a pile of stats with no evasion (though, it can be given evasion via bestowing it on something, which I think is roughly equivalent to mutating Gemrazer onto something, or equipping it with Loxodon Warhammer). I appreciate your insight.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
As soon as COVID allows it in my country, I plan to test my new Ur-Dragon deck, each time using a different, random selection of 25 dragons from all of Magic's history. I want to include as many candidates as possible and I really like dragons, but man does Rorix Bladewing just look boring :P (I did include Draco and Furyborn Hellkite though).
No doubt, there are some real snoozers out there. Rorix Bladewing is exactly the kind of creature I wouldn't run. The payoff isn't there; 6 mana for 6 damage? Meh. You can buy that for 4 mana easily! I think, in many cases, the p/t:cost ratio has to be really favourable in order for it to be considerable (random inclusions notwithstanding). I've seen people run Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar for that reason.

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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
No doubt, there are some real snoozers out there. Rorix Bladewing is exactly the kind of creature I wouldn't run. The payoff isn't there; 6 mana for 6 damage? Meh. You can buy that for 4 mana easily! I think, in many cases, the p/t:cost ratio has to be really favourable in order for it to be considerable (random inclusions notwithstanding). I've seen people run Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar for that reason.
I don't know if efficiency is the only reason. As of now, my list includes stuff like Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner, Phantasmal Dragon or Territorial Hellkite. In the end, what matters in my eyes is just the amount of tension/fun that the card can create, and french vanilla are most of the time limited in that regard, unless they have some unusual rules text or are really huge as was mentioned before.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Can't believe no one has mentioned to gold standard of french vanilla beaters: Serra Ascendant.

There's kinda 2 different questions I think: how efficient would a FV creature need to be to be viable in 75% metas solely as a beat stick, and would you actually play it if it was.

The answer to the former question is obviously really, really efficient. I mean tarmo sucks in this format. Serra ascendant doesn't see a ton of play and it's so wildly oversized that it gets modern play even when the setup is significant. I mean 6/6 with 2 of the best keywords for 1, holy crap. I think SA is perhaps the only viable beater-only creature. I'd expect other theoretical viable options to be comparable in absurdity. 8/8 for 2 with good abilities, 10/10 for 3, etc. Ofc those cards would be wildly popular for decks with power-matters, but just as beaters I'd say they'd be merely passable based on SA.

That said, I'll usually avoid including anything that doesn't fit my game plan in my decks, no matter how strong. That's why I often don't run rhystic or smothering tithe in my decks. So no matter how efficient, I wouldn't play it unless it matched my plan, even if it would be the "correct" pick.
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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

I run Lhurgoyfs probably more than most living magic players; Lhurgoyf, Mortivore and Terravore are incredible standouts in a way that Tarmogoyf can't be in a multiplayer game. I love Dungrove Elder, too. but no matter how uncapped the raw power and toughness of these cards get, combat's the least reliable angle of attack in a multiplayer format with fake Rule 0 morals =P

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 3 years ago

I didn't read all the replies, but these creatures without drawbacks might make a few of my decks. And I'm only half kidding.

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Death's Shadow

Ghalta, Primal Hunger is actually pretty good and one of the best vanilla's that I know of.
Serra Ascendant as well mentioned above.

Malignus isn't half bad as a 20/20 for .

What is that helion legend with devour x2? He gets stupid big.

Edit: Ghalta would effectively ALWAYS be beyond turn 4 in my Titania deck, but I'm still not inclined to play it. I'm not hurting for attackers and I'd rather use the card slot for land synergies or some sort of ability creature like Acidic Slime or Duplicant.

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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
3 years ago
What is that helion legend with devour x2? He gets stupid big.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

When my meta was more casual, I used to play a Goreclaw deck that played like 8-10 french vanilla beaters simply and only because they represented good damage numbers the following turn. Hunted Troll, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Nullhide Ferox, Carnage Tyrant et al. did some good work for me then, what with goreclaw handing out the trample and such.

But I was also running every Kavu Lair variant out there too, so there's that. I honestly think you can play as many as you want so long as your noncreature spells and commander are sufficiently devoted to supporting them through their (relative) weaknesses.
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