Sheldon's state of the format and AMA

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

https://articles.starcitygames.com/2021 ... 1582396687
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Commander is in the healthiest place it's ever been. We weathered the Year of Commander that never quite got off the ground due to the global pandemic and were stronger for it. Online communities around the world exploded with the wealth of opportunities via webcam games. We may not have done it in person, but many of us got to see more of a wider selection of people. There are also even more high-quality content creators, streaming and writing about the format with the kind of passion that the Commander fan base is known for. If you love Commander content, you're not going to run out of options anytime soon.

We remain committed to Commander being a bastion of stability in a sometimes-tumultuous Magic world. Our updates will still come quarterly, on the Monday before the Prerelease. We're also keenly aware of Commander as an Eternal format. Players have invested significant energy, time, and resources into their Commander decks with an expectation of some security. We'll certainly address cards (even those which have been around for a while) which become problematic in the format, but we're of the mind that Commander is not in need of any tectonic shifts.

The casual versus competitive divide which has so often torn at us in the past seems to have reached a détente. The community has come to a broad realization that, regardless of how we like to play, there's no need to villainize those who enjoy things differently. It's a result of talking to each other more often and clearly about our expectations before we ever sit down to a game. While there's no absolute and completely accurate power level scale, the existence of multiple attempts to craft them demonstrates that folks in the community are making the effort to help us all find our comfort zones.

The Commander Advisory Group (CAG) expansion has already paid dividends. Adding Jim LaPage, Rachel Weeks, DeQuan Watson, and Greg Sablan to the group of Olivia Gobert-Hicks, Charlotte Sable, Rachel Agnes, Adam Styborski, Josh Lee Kwai, and Shivam Bhatt further broadened the horizons towards which we can reach, adding more strong voices to our ever-growing chorus.

The value that the individuals on the CAG add to both the RC and the community is immeasurable, from being advocates for certain styles of play and strategies to helping amplify your voices. As we said in the announcement back in January, there's still room for a few more seats at the CAG table as we reach out to underserved demographics and geographic areas. Commander is a global format, full of diversity of background, thought, and opinion; we'd like to reflect that as much as we can.

The recent past hasn't been without its controversies, with many fans dubious over products like Secret Lair x The Walking Dead and the recently-announced Universes Beyond, and removing cards for their depictions of racism. Secret Lair x The Walking Dead was an incredibly emotional issue and some in the community wanted us to "make a statement" by banning the cards, which we didn't feel was a necessary or appropriate action. For one thing, we don't believe banning them would have the effect those supporting a ban hoped it would. For another, banning them wouldn't have been consistent with our philosophy document.

One of the simple truths of this complex situation is that we're not in the business of telling Wizards of the Coast (WotC) their business, as it were. We will continue to advise and suggest on community-level issues where we can (as we did in the wake of Secret Lair x The Walking Dead). We support them printing what they see fit to be a tournament-legal card. If we feel that individual cards are unhealthy for Commander, that's when we'll take action.

We're on board with the broadening landscape of future Magic sets. Whether it's an onramp to Commander for fans of other properties or a way for invested players to explore new horizons, there's room in our community for a vast range of experiences. One of the great parts of the format is that you don't need access to every card ever printed to have a great deal of fun playing. Each of us gets to choose which experiences resonate with us individually, and we have a great number of options in finding our comfort zones.


Another of the community's anxieties comes from power creep and pushed card designs. The folks in design and development loop us in during the process and we have several opportunities to offer suggestions on Commander product along the way, giving us more input and access than we've ever had. We can help alleviate some of those anxieties by supporting cards that are clever and interesting, that deckbuilders must do a little work to turn into stars, as opposed to cards that simply end up as staples due to their increased power or decreased costs. The game needs to evolve in order to stay fresh and relevant, but we can help point that evolution in a productive direction.

Creation of the RC Discord server has given us opportunity to be more directly involved with more of the community than ever before. It's a safe space in which you can interact on multiple topics with one or more RC and CAG members nearly every day of the week. We remain committed to keeping open lines of communication with the player base, hearing and addressing your concerns as well as we possibly can.

In resounding terms, players have made Commander the most popular format in Magic. Even in times when we can't get together physically, you've made it all about The Gathering. We look forward to the coming time when we join back together in person to enjoy each other's company and play the best format in Magic history. When the State of the Format comes around in 2022, we hope to give you the same message: Commander is in the best place it's ever been.


Here's where the address would end if you were watching it on TV. What follows is more like the analysis afterwards. I thought it would be compelling to hear what some other folks have to say, and then offer some additional commentary. I reached out to a few big names in the community for some thoughts.

Gavin Duggan

First, let's look at what fellow Rules Committee founder Gavin Duggan listed last year, three challenges for the format in 2020.

1. Two-Directional Visibility
As the community grows, it gets more difficult to accurately gauge what is happening at the playgroup level. The online community are our most visible user base, but are only the tip of the iceberg. In 2019 we worked to gather data from stores and groups across the continent, and across the world, but we need more. We also need a way to surface what we find from that data gathering, back to the community. We can publish content on mtgcommander.net about the data, how we interpret it, and possible ways to react (or not react). Then we need to make sure that data is seen and discussed by the community so they understand why we make our decisions.
The data Gavin was talking about here isn't the same kind of data that tournament formats might gather, such as which decks, strategies, and cards are tilting the environment in an unhealthy direction. The data that's useful to us is more experientially based. How do particular elements (to be fair, mostly cards) impact the people playing the format? What can the collected experiences of players tell us about how we might resolve the challenges they have? In the past — and hopefully in the near future — some of this data was (will be) collected in person once we're capable again of large gatherings.

Unlike competitive formats, what we do with this data is different as well. They seek to find a competitive balance. We're not interested in balance at all — we want to tilt the field in the direction of good times for as many people as possible. While that might lead to nerfing some particular card, deck, or strategy (a great deal of sameness can pretty boring after all), the goal is still radically different.

Focus on the Philosophy
Commander is a fragile beast. We work, with every update, to make it a rallying point for relaxed, social, experiential gaming — to make it something different. The philosophy document we released [in 2019] was a big step; it helps us (and hopefully you) understand what we're trying to achieve and gives us a north star to follow when deciding what's next. That philosophy is complex, though. We're trying to help people be social, and there's no way to write rules which force people to be nice to each other. We can only inspire and guide people with examples and hope they follow. To do that, we need to focus on what we know, from experience, most people enjoy — awesome, surprising, interactive games where people explore and tell stories together through Magic cards.
The philosophy document is still our guiding light. It's not a checklist and it's definitely not science. It's about helping create an environment that promotes those resonant experiences which have made the format what it is. Although we have a direction that we think is best for the broadest audience, we also want to balance that with the fact that there are many different ways to play and enjoy the format, all of them perfectly valid. We've intentionally left things pretty wide open in order to accommodate them.

Shake Things Up
Success breeds failure. There's a lot of truth to the expression "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," but not-broken is a lie we tell ourselves. It's "good enough" hidden behind fear. Something as big and complex as a game played by millions of people is never close to perfect, and there are probably a thousand ways Commander could be better — more exciting, more diverse, easier for players to tap into. There's also ways to make it worse, but we need to try things, even if they offend some people. Fortunately, the player base is remarkably diverse and resilient, the perfect partner for us to work with in exploring the possibilities.
Gavin's thoughts here might seem contrary to the earlier message of stability, but they aren't. What he's talking about here isn't about changing the foundation of the building, but maybe knocking down a few walls and doing some room makeovers. Commander is still going to be its best self on its own terms, but that doesn't mean it needs to suffer from inertia. We'll continue to seek ways to keep things fresh moving into the future and are happy to hear ideas on how to do so. There's nearly always a lively chat going on in the format-philosophy channel on the RC Discord server.

The Professor

One of the folks I reached out to is The Professor from Tolarian Community College. Here's what he had to say:

Commander has become the premier format of Magic: The Gathering. It's not just the most popular way to play Magic, it's completely blown other formats out of the water. As we exit The Year of Commander and approach sets like Strixhaven which will see no Draft Booster boxes at Prerelease, I feel that all eyes and, in Wizards of the Coast's case, all interest, seem to be on Commander.
However, all that attention is not necessarily a good thing. I feel the biggest obstacle facing Commander is the plethora of made-for-Commander cards that have flooded into our libraries and pushed so many older cards out of consideration. The most popular Commanders are the precon and Commander Legends ones. How can Brion Stoutarm and Karn, Silver Golem stand up to Edgar Markov; Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; and Chulane, Teller of Tales? What once was a format where you tried to figure out how to make your favorite old, goofy cards work in a deck is transforming, fast, into the format where cards are made to be so good that there's less and less reason to use those older cards.

Prof's concerns echo those of many folks in the community. I've already noted that we on the RC can nudge design and development along the way and our next respondent will have something to say along those lines. We've already offered the feedback to stop stapling additional broad abilities onto commanders (and cards in general), instead giving them a narrower focus that you might have to work a little harder to get value from. They've told us that they've heard and understood.

What else we can do is to continue to reinforce the message that I offered earlier: to a large extent, you get to sculpt your own Commander experience and there's no such thing as a "must play" card. The more we can get people talking and considering the experiences of the people they're sitting down with, the better we all are for it. As much as possible, we don't just want folks to play games, we want them to feel invested in the whole experience.

Gavin Verhey

I also asked Senior Designer and Commander Architect Gavin Verhey for a few sentences, and true to form, he over-delivered.

Hi everyone! Gavin Verhey from Wizards here!
In 2020 we had the year of Commander — and immediately ran headfirst into one of the most impactful historic events of our lifetime with COVID. We were all terrified about how this would impact the year.

Well, what impresses me so much about Commander players is that Commander didn't just survive COVID, it thrived. Our Commander sets were hits pretty much across the board, and the capstone of Commander Legends at the end of the year both did phenomenally for us and delighted players around the world. And that's without draft being an option in most circles (I hope you do get to draft it eventually though)!

But I think far more important than any of that is the community. I have been so impressed by the community banding together and making online, webcam Magic such a staple. What could have been a huge disconnection for everybody came as precisely an opportunity to connect even further! I've been able to consistently play Commander with people around the country and world, who I never would be able to get in regular games with otherwise. It's because of platforms like Spelltable that some great Commander creators have really began to rise up. In my mind, more than any individual product, 2020 will always be the year in Magic where webcam Commander took off and became a shining beacon of fun and unity in a globally troubling time.

So, where are we going forward?

Well, you can expect to continue to see a lot of Commander going forward. Nearly everything we did was a hit, so it makes sense to keep moving ahead. However, with all of our successes, I (and we) did hear a lot of community feedback. With growth, comes lessons and challenges. And there are a few big areas we're looking to reign in future releases.

A big one is staples and the rate at which new cards impact Commander. Commander is fun in part because your decks aren't determined and you have a lot of room for innovation. Every Arcane Signet we make, that fits into a huge swath of decks, just cuts into that creativity. Going forward, we are mostly looking to create cards which are interesting options, but not staples. Will we miss sometimes? Yes — I would be a fool if I thought we were going to be perfect. But by aiming toward more niche archetypes and being judicious in the kinds of cards we print, it goes a long way there.

Except for maybe white. We know white needs help. I recently made a video about exactly this — and I wouldn't mind making a couple white cards which most white decks will want to play. Though even there, restraint is important. Every card we add into Commander is there for the long haul, and something to fix white today, if a nuisance, could be a source of constant frustration five years from now. In any case, we have a lot of cards targeted at white in the pipeline over the next year or two, and I hope you will enjoy them as they release and be patient on the journey there.

Reprints is another big topic. As Commander continues to grow, staples become more necessary than ever. In 2020 we got a lot of cards out there between Mystery Boosters, Double Masters, tons of Commander decks, Commander Legends, and so on. Finding more ways to get players cards they need is important.

I could go on and on about everything that happened in Commander in 2020 — but I've already hijacked enough of Sheldon's article as is. I just want to say thanks to the incredible Commander community for everything you all have done over the past year. Magic literally wouldn't be the same without you.

See you in a game soon (and maybe, if all goes well with this vaccine rollout, I'll truly see you in the flesh!)

Gavin

You can see that Gavin and the RC are on much of the same page. One slight difference is his note about staples, but there he's coming at it from a business sense, and we approach from an aesthetic one. The two can often pull in different directions. Otherwise, we seem to have our fingers on the same pulse.

We look forward to continuing to have a honest, fruitful, and productive relationship with Gavin and the folks from WotC. Our strategic partnership with them will be able to keep the format steaming on, even in the roughest of seas.
The AmA https://articles.starcitygames.com/2021 ... 1-edition/
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

The proof will be in the pudding. Here's to hoping for more niche cards!
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I tend to enjoy the AMAs though there's a tendency to be flip in there that often bites them a little.

The state of the format felt a little bland and snoozey to me but I dunno. I'm cautiously excited about data gathering - always felt like that whole process was a bit opaque and undermanaged.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

I don't think the format is in a healthy place, overall, with Chulane and Golos where they are. If they think this a peak, I can't say I'm optimistic about what they say going forwards. I also think that the ever-growing popularity of EDH is less due to its own merits, and more with people growing increasingly disillusioned with Standard and Modern.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
I don't think the format is in a healthy place, overall, with Chulane and Golos where they are.

So, I am not playing a lot, but watching the way decks are constructed nowadays and the drastically increasing power floor and dropping trend in average CMC overall I can't say I disagree with you. I think commander deckbuilding is rapidly converging on 'solved' even at the 'casual' levels of the spectrum to the point that most decks build themselves.

I'd guess we've got another couple years before most decks are Taco Bell, and I don't think there's much engagement with understanding just how much 'optimizing' is going on, or how that affects the format.

Letting cards like Golos run free for so long definitely sends a message that it's perfectly fine to run the most powerful commanders all the time and it's something that concerns me.

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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

I'm glad that the people playing Commander think it's in a good place.

My only overlap with that place right now is building decks that follow the format's rules. I'm finding it hard to wanna actually play in its harsh meta, and the prevalance and monomania of it has pushed so many of the cards I'd like for myself out of their sensible price range. All that plus the team seeming determined not to criticize any of WOTCs incredibly blunt printings adds up to make this state of the meta feel a little idealized

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

The real problem is you can't stick the toothpaste back in the tube without bans. Chulane is here. Golos is here. Korvold is here. Tergrid and Valki are here. The Great Henge, Nyxbloom Ancient, and all the jillions of extremely good green cards they keep printing are here. Yeah, you can "hold back" and build your decks all sorts of fun ways rather than just optimizing (I do, and I know lots of others do too) but unless you have an entire playgroup also doing so, power creep really does sour things (even for the optimizers). "Culturally" the format has reached a point where MLD is avoided for the most part, but can anyone reasonably expect the same for goodstuff powerhouse cards?

The reality is that even if Wizards pumps the brakes on the generically powerful and pushed cards, it will take a long time of sustaining that practice before some of the recent instant staples don't feel so auto-include. I don't want them to reach a point where a bunch of bans are necessary, but I don't foresee them ever doing something like a points list (as in Canadian Highlander) to calibrate power levels - mostly due to the complexity and likely pushback.

I am glad Gavin says more interesting niche cards are on the way and help for white too.

I'm confused about the Strixhaven bit though. It won't be sold in boosters? Wut?
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I'm confused about the Strixhaven bit though. It won't be sold in boosters? Wut?
Well as far as I can tell draft boosters are listed, maybe they are giving set boosters away as prizes though?

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I'm confused about the Strixhaven bit though. It won't be sold in boosters? Wut?
Well as far as I can tell draft boosters are listed, maybe they are giving set boosters away as prizes though?
Ah. "Set boosters". Also an enigma to me since my personal preference is for draft/sealed if I'm buying packs. I thought it sounded odd for WotC to print a set but not make it draftable, lol.

Edit:hmmm... Maybe they are just timing draft boosters availability differently? Here's the quote from Prof that's got me all confused:

"As we exit The Year of Commander and approach sets like Strixhaven which will see no Draft Booster boxes at Prerelease"
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I'd guess we've got another couple years before most decks are Taco Bell,
Well yeah, Universes Beyond hasn't printed the Ravenous Chalupacabra yet.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
I don't think the format is in a healthy place, overall, with Chulane and Golos where they are. If they think this a peak, I can't say I'm optimistic about what they say going forwards. I also think that the ever-growing popularity of EDH is less due to its own merits, and more with people growing increasingly disillusioned with Standard and Modern.
There has always been a best or strongest option out there. What makes this format not terrible is that not everyone is playing the best there is to offer and even when people are they usually have multiple decks and it isn't the only thing you play against.

I agree that those commanders are miserable but how long have we had some miserable commander that isn't exactly great to counter play against? Prossh, Derevi, Atraxa, Thrasios, Edgar Markov. We have always had powerful commanders out there that haven't been banned so this isn't a new thing. If you encounter a lot of the top end of annoying and powerful commanders it might be time for a discussion in the meta but otherwise because something exists and sucks doesn't tend to make it everywhere unlike most competitive 60 card formats.

I do wish we could get some of the peak issue commanders banned. But that is kind of a different discussion.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that those commanders are miserable but how long have we had some miserable commander that isn't exactly great to counter play against? Prossh, Derevi, Atraxa, Thrasios, Edgar Markov.
I feel like there was a lull between 2013 and 2016. The monocolour Planeswalkers commanders and experience counter commanders weren't as ridiculously impactful as 2013's crapstorm and 2016's partners.

For reference, this was Theros Block, Khan's Block, Battle for Zendikar Block, Conspiracy, Origins, M15, Commander 2014 (monocolour planeswalkers) and Commander 2015 (experience counters).

I feel like none of those sets had major sick standouts, and I think once people eschewed the 2013 commanders, I had really good times in that span, Theros block gods notwithstanding. I honestly hope that we're entering that kind of era again. After the fiascos included in Eldraine and Theros 2.0, the power dip in Ikoria, Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim have been very welcome.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that those commanders are miserable but how long have we had some miserable commander that isn't exactly great to counter play against? Prossh, Derevi, Atraxa, Thrasios, Edgar Markov.
I feel like there was a lull between 2013 and 2016. The monocolour Planeswalkers commanders and experience counter commanders weren't as ridiculously impactful as 2013's crapstorm and 2016's partners.

For reference, this was Theros Block, Khan's Block, Battle for Zendikar Block, Conspiracy, Origins, M15, Commander 2014 (monocolour planeswalkers) and Commander 2015 (experience counters).

I feel like none of those sets had major sick standouts, and I think once people eschewed the 2013 commanders, I had really good times in that span, Theros block gods notwithstanding. I honestly hope that we're entering that kind of era again. After the fiascos included in Eldraine and Theros 2.0, the power dip in Ikoria, Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim have been very welcome.
Yea I agree, some of the current situation might still be because those commanders that were mentioned are still kind of new but man we had a rough time around Eldrane with the power level of everything in every format. With covid tampering with in person play I am not sure how widespread of an issue some of these commanders are. We got so many new legends between Commander Legends and Kaldheim that maybe its not that big a deal. Its just hard to tell as a lot of us are on very few games on average and the online players have always been sort of skewed towards a heavier comp scene.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
With covid tampering with in person play I am not sure how widespread of an issue some of these commanders are. We got so many new legends between Commander Legends and Kaldheim that maybe its not that big a deal. Its just hard to tell as a lot of us are on very few games on average and the online players have always been sort of skewed towards a heavier comp scene.
Speaking for my own group, we had some major issues in the wake of THB. We had one Uro player go pretty mad with power, and I (given the powerlevel of my group) misstepped by building Yawgmoth. I'm pretty sure no one among the group had enjoyable games for a while.

When we started building around Ikoria mutate stuff C20 and M21 cards, I felt like things quieted down a bit. One of our players has built Araumi of the Dead Tide and Jorn, God of Winter. and I'm currently building Moritte. I think we've managed to level off from the madness of playing Uro and sacrificing it to greater good, or playing Liliana of the Dark Realms and ulting her in the same turn.

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Post by onering » 3 years ago

I agree with a lot of what Sheldon said, yet disagree with the overall assessment of the format's health. The dominance of certain problem commanders in casual is changing the format into something worse.

I've given my opinions on this elsewhere, but the summary is that there are too many overly pushed commanders that give absurd resource advantages with little investment, are stupidly easy to build, and become "if I untap with this I win", while their easy to build and play nature combines with their raw power to eat up an inordinate share of the meta and become omnipresent.

I agree that banning all of the problem commanders at once would be a mistake, because that's too many decks taken out at once. I feel that slowly banning them, beginning with the biggest offenders, would go a long way to solving the problem, and its very likely that the problem could be solved with only 2-3 bannings. It may seem counterintuitive, but the current situation has gotten so bad because of the sheer number of these sorts of commanders, which means that even if someone is uninterested in one of them they're still pretty likely to pick up another. So while you might not run into Golos every single game, your probably going to run into at least one of the problem commanders every game. Knocking out one or two will make this less likely, as not everyone who likes one of the problem commanders will migrate to another one, and getting rid of one or two can reduce the number of games where one of these commanders shows up to a more tolerable level, while the allure of new toys gets other players to change their decks naturally and does the rest of the work.

My suggestion is to start with Golos and Chulane. Golos because he is the most played out of all of these, the easiest to build and pilot, and the most repetitive. Getting rid of him would do the most to improve the casual meta. For the other, I'd suggest Chulane. He's not the most OP of the problem commanders, nor is he the most widespread, but he's near the top of both piles, very repetitive, and promotes long combo turns and solitaire play. Kicking both of these out would relieve a lot of the current repetitive nature of the format, and greatly increase the number of games where the problem commanders show up. Some of their players will migrate to other problem commanders because they just want to play the strongest thing, but others won't because the other problem commanders play differently. and will instead adopt a deck that can make use of the remnants of their deck or that is more in tune with their playstyle. We'd still have to deal with the Korvolds and Kinnans and others, but those are either less broken, less widespread, more difficult to build and/or pilot, or some combination of the those.

The more I consider the situation, the more I think that the format can handle a few problem commanders, and the the problem comes from there being too many at once. We've been through periods of bad commander design before, just not as many at once and especially not so many of this kind of power level.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

onering wrote:
3 years ago
For the other, I'd suggest Chulane.
Korvold hands down for me. There is not a more toxic problem commander out there. Any commander that combos with Wildfire is just begging for trouble.

Kinda like Tegrid fires alarm bells with his Pox combo, and Leovold with Windfall et al. There's just zero good that's going to happen with a general comboing with an already tedious effect.

I'd take Golos before any of them but Golos, then Korvold, then whatever else is a distant 3rd for me.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Edit:hmmm... Maybe they are just timing draft boosters availability differently? Here's the quote from Prof that's got me all confused:

"As we exit The Year of Commander and approach sets like Strixhaven which will see no Draft Booster boxes at Prerelease"
I was also confused about that. I don't see anything online that corroborates that story? But also booster boxes aren't available to purchase at prerelease anyway, right?
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kelzam
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Post by Kelzam » 3 years ago

The only thing that stuck out to me in this article, is a particular line in response to The Prof:
What else we can do is to continue to reinforce the message that I offered earlier: to a large extent, you get to sculpt your own Commander experience and there's no such thing as a "must play" card.
This is an ideal, but not the reality for many reasons. With data aggregators like EDHREC that have become the go-to resource to decide what decks to build, this just isn't how player's minds work. While Twitter has content creators tirelessly trying to come up with something new to stay relevant and thus looking for the most quirky Commanders and cards to play possible, many players are comfortable using the data aggregators possess to build from said data. In almost all gaming communities there is an eventual, if not inevitable, desire for optimization. Optimization comes in different ways, not just power: it's effectiveness for money spent; it's a fear of failing at the table; it's a want to feel effective in a game; and the data informs players on that. As Commander has picked up vast velocity, so has the cost of Magic. Data aggregators and content creators telling people what to play and what not to play has shaped the format and created a feeling of "must play", interchangeable with "staples". Even without Chulane, Korvold, Golos, etc. While the Top 10 Commanders on EDHREC might not necessarily reflect a particular play group, the big picture when you zoom out matters because it filters down into and affects all of our experiences in one way or another. To say that there aren't "must play" cards in Commander seems almost ignorant of reality. I have a huge amount of respect for Sheldon, the RC and CAG, but The Prof's concerns are very real, and this response seems hand wave-y.

Also, as someone who regularly sells and acquires cards for the largest LGS in my area, I can tell you which cards are the ones we can't keep in stock. Spoiler alert: They're the cards in a given Commander's "Top Cards" and the first two rows for any given category in a Commander's page on EDHREC; or, the latest cards hyped up constantly or that made a splash on big content creators gameplay videos like Game Knights. To be clear, I'm not bemoaning EDHREC. I'm happy that tool is there for players, because building a 100-card singleton deck to both play with and against three to four other players is daunting. I'm just a little irked at the idealistic, handwave-y statement that just doesn't match reality. The actual truth of Commander and all formats in Magic as a game is one it shares with any gaming community, where by word of mouth, through data collecting websites or content creators, there are perceived "best" cards that are ubiquitous. Whether it's a champion build in League of Legends, a talent or armor build in World of Warcraft or a tier list in Mortal Kombat, the people doing the thinking for everyone else inevitably filters down into the rest of the player base to and influences us all, even in a game where there are thousands upon thousands of options, such as Magic. Time is money.
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Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

There is a difference between "everyone knows this card is good" and "I must have this card in order to play."

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Kelzam wrote:
3 years ago
This is an ideal, but not the reality for many reasons.
Ehhh. It's a reality for my group. I cultivated my group to be like this, and the other members of the group recruit like-minded people who aren't all that interested in browsing EDHREC.

We have our foibles. We play Cyclonic Rift. Two of us tried out Korvold. I played Golos for a bit. But, we always retreat to low power stuff. I don't think it's universally true that you end up in some not-really-competitive arms race with people. It might boil over, but, you can always talk with people you regularly play with to try and establish some kind of baseline of what kind of game you want to play, and what you find interesting (or don't).

Now, if you're playing with randoms at your LGS every week, I have no help for you, except to suggest that you pick the people you enjoyed playing against the most and try and schedule time with them.

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Post by onering » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
onering wrote:
3 years ago
For the other, I'd suggest Chulane.
Korvold hands down for me. There is not a more toxic problem commander out there. Any commander that combos with Wildfire is just begging for trouble.

Kinda like Tegrid fires alarm bells with his Pox combo, and Leovold with Windfall et al. There's just zero good that's going to happen with a general comboing with an already tedious effect.

I'd take Golos before any of them but Golos, then Korvold, then whatever else is a distant 3rd for me.
Korvold would be a close 3rd for me, and if Golos and Chulane going didn't solve it I'd suggest Korvold and Kinnan (just for how overly busted Kinnan is and because I suspect him to be the most likely problem commander to pick up players displaced by a Golos/Chulane banning, as he covers the ramp and mana sink of Golos while being Chulane's colors. Thrasios would gain as well but Thrasios isn't as problematic). This is of course based on my experiences playing against the commanders, I've seen Korvold a bit more than Chulane and its somewhat less likely to just win if it untaps, and requires you to build around it a bit more, though ymmv.

Tegrid I actually think will die out quickly. She's brutal and unfun, but doesn't have blue backup to protect her and the deck falls apart without her. Untap with her and you'll get a lot of value, but you need a couple untaps to seal the deal, which gives more time to respond and she's more easily archenemied out than some of these others. People hate what she does, even if they've never heard of her before, and hate her out on principle. I've seen her do her thing once, each other time the hate has been relentless. People will stop playing her because she's so miserable to play against that the rest of the table makes it miserable to play her, and her deck can't handle it like other decks can, nor can it capitalize on the first round with her as well as the others can.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

To this day I do not know why I cannot be relied on to gender a magic card at a rate better than raw chance..

I do think tergrid will die out as a commander. Just mentioned it because it's fresh in a lot of people's minds and korvold is like tergrid that can 21 you in the face so doesn't have to work for it :P

...and combos with fetchlands good lord will they stop encouraging fetches in commander

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Post by kraus911 » 3 years ago

My experience playing this format for 10 years is creativity is what keeps people in the game. To that point I think the flood of possibilities with all the new partners will keep new interesting things happening beyond when the broken commanders fall out of favor. There was a year when Nekusar was everywhere, and then Narset, and they could easily be called solved "easy button" commanders. But not only do groups tire of seeing them, but I think players tire of playing them and hearing the groans around the table. Not saying there aren't exceptions, people who just want to do powerful things and don't see the social consequences, but in general I see people more excited about their weird decks than their straight from edhrec broken deck. I actually think more interesting options is a better answer than bans, and letting newer players get a few broken decks out of their systems and then kindly leading them to more table friendly decks.

The pandemic put a limit on how much C Legends was drafted, which is a bummer because I think more of that experience would help shape the format in a positive direction. A limited environment spawns creativity. Maybe it'll inspire more people to create and play commander cubes, another great way to avoid the easy button commanders.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Edit:hmmm... Maybe they are just timing draft boosters availability differently? Here's the quote from Prof that's got me all confused:

"As we exit The Year of Commander and approach sets like Strixhaven which will see no Draft Booster boxes at Prerelease"
I was also confused about that. I don't see anything online that corroborates that story? But also booster boxes aren't available to purchase at prerelease anyway, right?
Glad I'm not the only one. Sometimes prof just... says... things.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

kraus911 wrote:
3 years ago
My experience playing this format for 10 years is creativity is what keeps people in the game. To that point I think the flood of possibilities with all the new partners will keep new interesting things happening beyond when the broken commanders fall out of favor. There was a year when Nekusar was everywhere, and then Narset, and they could easily be called solved "easy button" commanders. But not only do groups tire of seeing them, but I think players tire of playing them and hearing the groans around the table. Not saying there aren't exceptions, people who just want to do powerful things and don't see the social consequences, but in general I see people more excited about their weird decks than their straight from edhrec broken deck. I actually think more interesting options is a better answer than bans, and letting newer players get a few broken decks out of their systems and then kindly leading them to more table friendly decks.
I agree with this. Commander has always been subject to trends, ever since the first batch of precons with Animar, Ghave, Kaalia and the others. Do you see them as often now? New commanders will push old ones out and newer ones will push the former out and so on. The Brawl commanders have been pushed beyond limits, but they too will fade out at some point. I've never personally played against Korvold or Kinnan. There is (was?) one Chulane deck and two Golos decks (one of which is mine) in my playgroup. We may sometimes have problems with matching the power level of our decks but the diversity is certainly there, as each of us wants to show how cool their deck is.

Powerful commanders also don't kill creativity, you can build them with limiting themes or restrictions. My Golos deck is like that, and I lose waaaay more often than I win. It is one of my favourite decks that has started with Ruhan in 2011 and I'm really happy at where it stands at right now. I would be pretty pissed off if Golos was suddenly banned because of popularity.

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