Oath of Lieges

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Oath of Lieges

It's (one of) white's original from-behind cards. There are some powerful options these days (<cough>Keeper of the Accord</cough>), but, OoL has the advantage of being low-cost and one of the most resilient permanent types.

Second, there are now more ways to torch your own lands than ever before for a profit (like Lotus Field), so playing 'from behind' is reaching some kind of viability.

The only stroke against (in my mind) is that it will generally assist other players; you might be getting paid out with it, but so are your opponents with the exception of the person furthest ahead.

Do you use Oath of Lieges? What kind of deck do you have it in?

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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

I remember around Apocalypse times I was using it in a deck with several copies of Goblin Trenches and a Zorb :3 I've also played this in EDH, as Obzedat, Ghost Council, alongside Land Tax, Flagstones of Trokair, Dust Bowl and the Zorb, in a base-white deck that ran several sacrificeable lands, plus Thran Quarry, all of which Oath of Lieges will compensate you for. It's a great card in my eyes!

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

So I played a lot of Oath of Lieges in my old Alela, Artful Provocateur deck as just a ramp spell that would make a faerie later, as the deck had a small subtheme of symmetrical stuff (though more hate than help:P).

In general I found that it grossly accelerated the game, since one player was usually ahead on lands by 1 or 2 being green and then everyone would catch up. The fact that it puts the land in untapped makes the acceleration even more unnatural. A turn 2 Oath of Lieges would usually make a game over by turn 5 as the ramp chained around the table.

I find that the texture of those kinds of games was always pretty unpleasant to me, although other people seemed to like it? It did function as I intended which was as a kind of anti-green-ramp-hate spell, but it created weird super fast games.

I did always get lots of comments about it, as people found the effect interesting and it helped keep weaker decks in the game, it felt to me like it pushed my mana so hard that I would usually run away with the game.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

If I wanted everyone to have stupid mana, I'd play Mana Flare, win the game that turn, and be done with it. The price of being symmetrical is not worth a potential Untamed Wilds per turn imho. Furthermore, it does nothing remotely useful if you're humming along and best case scenario, the payout is too mediocre to keep you from staying behind UG/Golos/generic format boogeyman. One extra land a turn won't save you.

Good cards can punch up or down, relieve or apply pressure depending on the situation and the need. This most complimentary thing I can say about this... thing is that it is 10 mana worth of liability for only 2. What a deal.

To dispense with my dislike for a moment, I once played it in a zedruu deck way back when, and it was an okay donation target at least. But all my experiments to play it elsewhere were disastrous.
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Post by Serenade » 3 years ago

I want to try it in Ghen, Arcanum Weaver.
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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Do you use Oath of Lieges? What kind of deck do you have it in?
Yes. White decks.

I kid a bit, but Oath of Lieges is an amazing card. Don't think of it so much as ramp for yourself, or even that you're helping other players, but rather that it punishes and shuts down every other ramp player, and essentially makes all of their land ramp spells useless. Why spend to ramp 2 lands, if everyone else is now going to get the same benefit for free? It straight up equalizes the table and negates ramp decks' attempts to gain an advantage. It's fantastic for 2.

It's a similar concept to running Spiteful Visions to punish draw decks. For everyone else, it's a Phyrexian Arena type of effect that equalizes a bit of the card draw compared to the blue player. For the blue player drawing 10+ cards, it's an actual source of pain. Helpful for those who are behind, or playing 'legit,' Punishes those that abuse, equalizes against those ahead. Love both cards. Wish there was more of this type of design.

My mono white decks also tend to occasionally out-ramp the table. The great part about OoL, just like any symmetrical effects (such as wraths), is that you choose whether or not to play it, so you will realistically never be helping your opponents out more than yourself.

Great card.

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

I think an important aspect of it is the power level of the meta you play. In a more casual meta, it's definitely going to accelerate the game, but likely in a fun way where people get to pull out their bombs faster than they expect, and like Bob mentions, equalizes the playing field with ramp decks. On the flip side, if you're playing in a more powered enviroment, many of those "non-ramp" decks are still running a sizable amount of non-land based ramp, so you're not so much catching the slower player up as catapulting the artifact (as an example) player ahead. Plus, as decks get more combo focused, giving out extra resources often just means "someone else finds their combo first". So it can be a very strong card, but it does require an element of meta reading (and desire to just speed up the game in general) that won't make it suitable for everyone.

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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

I've run Oath of Lieges in the past. It's fine. Not the most consistent ramp, needs for you to be behind, and also benefits you last.... but it's also one of the few ways white has to ramp. There are also a few ways to break the symmetry, ranging from Aven Mindcensor to Lotus Field and Karoos. It's better if your meta is filled with green decks, and comparatively weaker if your deck is consistently hitting land drops already.

While it may accelerate the game a bit, it doesn't do so nearly as explosively as Mana Flare effects. I generally find it makes for more fun games, since everyone hits all their land drops. But yeah, giving opponents access to extra mana can definitely backfire. I'll also note that you'll generally want a fair number of basics in your deck to support it, which can be difficult to fit into some multicolor decks.

I will note that Oath is generally outclassed by Land Tax, which is a much more powerful (and asymmetric) way to hit land drops.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

I know it isn't exactly the same effect, but I prefer Gift of Estates , Tithe, and/or Land Tax over this. They help you hit a few land drops for the same mana cost and don't benefit your opponents at all.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Ruiner wrote:
3 years ago
I know it isn't exactly the same effect, but I prefer Gift of Estates , Tithe, and/or Land Tax over this. They help you hit a few land drops for the same mana cost and don't benefit your opponents at all.
Yeah, I'm super fond of these. @ISBPathfinder and I have gone back and forth over a from-behind deck that runs stuff like Lotus Field to stay 'behind', and I was wondering how Oath of Lieges has served people well and could be included in it.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

Now that I think about it, this might be worth trying in my Liesa, Shroud of Dusk deck. The deck has Ankh of Mishra and Polluted Bonds. Might be discouraging for others to try to use it. Might not be worthwhile, I dunno.

Or maybe there is some other reason people could be discouraged from getting the land.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

The symmetrical aspect of it really turns me off. I agree with @Ruiner insofar as preferring Tithe. Also, holy s**t Tithe is $50 now!
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Post by Ulka » 3 years ago

I currently Run it in my Ramp each opponent out do MLD all lands then return them to play with a Ankh of Mishra effect in play deck. Its super solid at forcing games to go faster and honestly that speed alone is something I love about it. I haven't had a 2.5+ hr game since I added it to a few decks.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I find that the texture of those kinds of games was always pretty unpleasant to me, ... It did function as I intended which was as a kind of anti-green-ramp-hate spell, but it created weird super fast games.
Yeah, this is what I'm worried about.
The deck I'm thinking of will have a lot of 'from behind' action, but, maybe Oath will just go too far as it helps the N-1 players rather than just yourself (like Land Tax, et al.)
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
The symmetrical aspect of it really turns me off. I agree with @Ruiner insofar as preferring Tithe. Also, holy s**t Tithe is $50 now!
Yeah, it's one of those staples in white that's now worth a fortune for no good reason. I remember buying mine for $5 years ago thinking that it was highway robbery.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Italian legends :)

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Post by capitacommunist » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
The symmetrical aspect of it really turns me off. I agree with @Ruiner insofar as preferring Tithe. Also, holy s**t Tithe is $50 now!
Yeah, it's one of those staples in white that's now worth a fortune for no good reason. I remember buying mine for $5 years ago thinking that it was highway robbery.
It's a reserved list card and a white staple which has been underplayed for years. It's hardly surprising that it's fifty dollars now if unplayable reserved list cards are also ten+ dollars. That said, I was extremely surprised it is only in 2186 decks on edhrec (1%), as in most white decks Tithe is better than your worst land.

On Oath of Lieges, I don't think I would ever play it, even if you play a deck in which you can always benefit from it. Since it triggers on upkeep you're the last one to benefit, and since it only doesn't help the player with the most lands (who will be eager to take this card out), it doesn't catch you up to the other two players at the table.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

I think one of my greater games was when Sinis refused to ramp for 3 turns because Oath was out.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

I played it once in a 4 player game with a 5-color, no basics deck at the table. The pilot of that deck pitched a fit for several turns, and then won anyway. It was a pretty good round other than the complaint.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

capitacommunist wrote:
3 years ago
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
The symmetrical aspect of it really turns me off. I agree with @Ruiner insofar as preferring Tithe. Also, holy s**t Tithe is $50 now!
Yeah, it's one of those staples in white that's now worth a fortune for no good reason. I remember buying mine for $5 years ago thinking that it was highway robbery.
It's a reserved list card and a white staple which has been underplayed for years. It's hardly surprising that it's fifty dollars now if unplayable reserved list cards are also ten+ dollars. That said, I was extremely surprised it is only in 2186 decks on edhrec (1%), as in most white decks Tithe is better than your worst land.

On Oath of Lieges, I don't think I would ever play it, even if you play a deck in which you can always benefit from it. Since it triggers on upkeep you're the last one to benefit, and since it only doesn't help the player with the most lands (who will be eager to take this card out), it doesn't catch you up to the other two players at the table.
Amusingly enough, if someone isn't *super* ramped ahead when this hits the table, it can even help whoever's got the the most land. For example, if you drop this on turn 2 after the player to your right rampant growthed, the player to your left is probably going to trigger oath and then play their land for the turn, putting them up to 4 lands... and letting the Rampant growth player also trigger oath, since they're only at 3. So frequently, this card just accelerates everyone, including the ramp player, at least for a little bit. Once they start dropping stuff like Skyshroud Claim or Boundless Realms, it's going to get harder for them to trigger it, but even then you can end up with the oddity of 2 ramp decks keeping up with one another, and thus allowing the other to keep triggering it.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
I think one of my greater games was when Sinis refused to ramp for 3 turns because Oath was out.
This would have never happened. You're thinking of someone else.
Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
Amusingly enough, if someone isn't *super* ramped ahead when this hits the table, it can even help whoever's got the the most land. For example, if you drop this on turn 2 after the player to your right rampant growthed, the player to your left is probably going to trigger oath and then play their land for the turn, putting them up to 4 lands... and letting the Rampant growth player also trigger oath, since they're only at 3. So frequently, this card just accelerates everyone, including the ramp player, at least for a little bit. Once they start dropping stuff like Skyshroud Claim or Boundless Realms, it's going to get harder for them to trigger it, but even then you can end up with the oddity of 2 ramp decks keeping up with one another, and thus allowing the other to keep triggering it.
This is an interesting point about turn order and something I hadn't considered. Whenever I'm playing other 'from behind' ramp spells, it's a matter of not-first. But, for OoL, it's advantageous to be last chair, rather than merely not-first.

I also wonder if it's better to play it later, even sandbagging it on turn 2.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
This would have never happened. You're thinking of someone else.
Possible, but pretty sure it was you. I remember you blowing it up so you could ramp. But maybe it was someone else.
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
Amusingly enough, if someone isn't *super* ramped ahead when this hits the table, it can even help whoever's got the the most land. For example, if you drop this on turn 2 after the player to your right rampant growthed, the player to your left is probably going to trigger oath and then play their land for the turn, putting them up to 4 lands... and letting the Rampant growth player also trigger oath, since they're only at 3. So frequently, this card just accelerates everyone, including the ramp player, at least for a little bit. Once they start dropping stuff like Skyshroud Claim or Boundless Realms, it's going to get harder for them to trigger it, but even then you can end up with the oddity of 2 ramp decks keeping up with one another, and thus allowing the other to keep triggering it.
This is an interesting point about turn order and something I hadn't considered. Whenever I'm playing other 'from behind' ramp spells, it's a matter of not-first. But, for OoL, it's advantageous to be last chair, rather than merely not-first.

I also wonder if it's better to play it later, even sandbagging it on turn 2.
The full table acceleration is possible, but honestly, this is still good for the white player. The more lands on the field the less effective and valuable existing ramp becomes. You're still de-valuing the effectiveness of the ramp cards, while getting to your comfortable play area and thereby increasing the value of non-ramp cards, which should make up a greater proportion of your deck.


In any case, Oath of Lieges makes more fun games for everybody.

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Post by knight_seb » 3 years ago

I used to play Oath of liege in my Dakkon deck but after some games I preferred play Tithe , Gift of Estates as ramp cards because the symmetry was annoying at the moment. In my meta, I had a lot green decks which get a push further as there was always someone ahead when a player started his turn ...
Now my meta has changed, I could think about putting it back. I have to test it.

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