Would you let me play Flash?

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RxPhantom
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 week ago

As most of you already know, Flash was banned a few years ago as an olive branch to the cEDH community. Their reasoning was that it was too strong with Protean Hulk in the format, cEDH players were begging for it, and nobody else was playing it. Well, I sure as hell was.

One of my favorite decks is Lord of Tresserhorn. I call him Jeff. Jeff Tresserhorn. In my head canon, he has a nemesis named Tress Jefferhorn, but that's not important now. What is important is that the deck revolves around death triggers, and Flash really enabled some cool stuff. My most memorable play was when an opponent cheated out a Blightsteel Colossus and attacked me with it, so I Flashed in Keiga, the Tide Star, took control of the Blightsteel and killed him with it on the next turn.

I miss Flash, and I still don't think it was fair that this supercool card that does supercool things in my supercool deck got the axe just for cEDH. I really want to play it again, so I ask you: if we had our pre-game discussion and I asked the table if it was cool for me to run Flash, what would you say? Further, would you let me win with it? Would you be bitter if it enabled me to make a decisive or even game-winning play? Would you consider my victory to be unearned? Would it come with an asterisk, in your view?

So what say you Nexus, are you cool with me playing Flash? Would this devolve into you trying to play Fastbond or Griselbrand? Has my repeated use of the word 'flash' made you think of speedy superheroes or public indecency? Let's hear it.
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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 week ago

Given the ability to do so, I would gut the ban list, particularly unbanning cards that wouldn't be banned today. I think Flash is in that category, because if Doctor Strange looked into 14,000,605 futures, there was only one where the ban succeeded in its larger purpose, and it's not the future we're living in. If somebody raised a single finger to the rules committee during deliberations that signified this was the moment, I have a hard time imagining it was the index. Play Flash. Play PoK, Iona, all the cards that weren't banned because they broke the format, but because Rule 0 is less about house bans than undoing format bans, at least in practice. Rule 0 should cover every card except those that simply don't function in the format. Even price - if the Power 9 are banned because they're too expensive, it's only right that dozens of other cards that are more expensive now than they were then should join them, or they should be freed. Play your Flash. Play it at instant speed.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 week ago

As a general rule of thumb, I'll let people play just about anything that they bring up in the rule zero.

If I end up regretting it, I'll just nicely ask them to pick a different deck for the next game.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 week ago

I'd let you do it, but you'd have to eat the asterisk. It's only fair. I feel for your position (I can't play my beloved Paradox Engine anymore....) but rules are rules.
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Post by Lifeless » 1 week ago

Absolutely, at least once. If it's a disaster I'd ask you not play it more than once a night but otherwise I'm game for anything.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 week ago

If you can play Flash, then I can play Griselbrand in Kaalia or Recurring Nightmare in Alesha. Or Balance|4ed in general. That's the fairest compromise.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 week ago

If it was a full table of strangers playing one game, I'd probably vote against, as that's the easiest peaceful resolution.

If I know you or expect to play against you repeatedly, I say go ahead, self regulation beats the ban-list among friends. I still reserve the right to complain, but that's much more true for Sol Ring than anything actually banned.
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 week ago

I was playing Flash in my Aminatou deck with Academy Rector and Arena Rector. It wasn't like super busted but I do miss those combos.

When it comes to cEDH I don't think anything should be banned. New cards are printed, new degenerate combos come along.

Sir, you are welcome to play Flash in my playgroup.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

Keep in mind that flash hulk combo is fast and cheap to execute but its far more interactable than thoracle. Its less mana to execute but probably 5x easier to interact with. If it were legal today I think it would be playable and its similar / same colors in some instance with thoracle decks so it seems likely they would play both and just tutor for pieces based on what they draw.

If someone wants to play a non hulk flash I have no issues with it. I think its ambitious to say flash hulk is bad but thoracle is likely superior due to how few ways you can interact with it.
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Post by Mookie » 1 week ago

I'll play against anything once, assuming you ask beforehand. Beyond that... if it's too broken, I'll request that you either switch decks or replace the card. If it's strong but beatable, I may counterpick and switch to a deck that I think can deal with it - I usually don't choose my decks based on what my opponents are playing.

Flash can be a strong card even without Protean Hulk - cheating out a Torsten, Founder of Benalia, Woodfall Primus, or Atraxa, Grand Unifier is still quite powerful. Not necessarily banworthy, but certainly not fair either. I do consider it on the tamer side of the banlist though - if you wanted to play with something more broken, like Black Lotus or Fastbond, it would certainly test my policy.

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Keep in mind that flash hulk combo is fast and cheap to execute but its far more interactable than thoracle. Its less mana to execute but probably 5x easier to interact with. If it were legal today I think it would be playable and its similar / same colors in some instance with thoracle decks so it seems likely they would play both and just tutor for pieces based on what they draw.

If someone wants to play a non hulk flash I have no issues with it. I think its ambitious to say flash hulk is bad but thoracle is likely superior due to how few ways you can interact with it.
There was the issue that if you had any of the creatures in hand or graveyard that it would delay the combo by a turn or two, and that the creatures were kind of bad on their own.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 week ago

If I'm confident your deck isn't abusing it, I guess, but honestly I wouldn't want to if I were in your position.

Is it really worth having 1 good card in the deck, that every time you sit down to play a game at an LGS you have to ask everyone's permission, and maybe some people say it's okay because they feel awkward saying no but they're not REALLY okay with it, and if you get a sweet blowout with the card people are gonna be like "well that's obviously why the card is banned and we shouldn't have let him get away with playing it".

I went through a similar thing for my golos sorrow's path deck (except at least with golos he's the linchpin of the deck, not just another strong card). I just don't find it worth the hassle.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 week ago

Flash was explicitly banned because of its interaction with Protean Hulk. You can't play Protean Hulk. Therefore, your deck is unable to perform the very specific task that was the reason why the card was banned.

Go for it dude.

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Post by materpillar » 1 week ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 week ago
If I'm confident your deck isn't abusing it, I guess, but honestly I wouldn't want to if I were in your position.

Is it really worth having 1 good card in the deck, that every time you sit down to play a game at an LGS you have to ask everyone's permission, and maybe some people say it's okay because they feel awkward saying no but they're not REALLY okay with it, and if you get a sweet blowout with the card people are gonna be like "well that's obviously why the card is banned and we shouldn't have let him get away with playing it".

I went through a similar thing for my golos sorrow's path deck (except at least with golos he's the linchpin of the deck, not just another strong card). I just don't find it worth the hassle.
I'm rocking Who // What // When // Where // Why I'm Esika and form of the mulldrifter in Lazav. I find it worth the annoying ask before games because those cards are funny to me.

I'd personally be wary of letting someone randomly at a LGS roll with Flash because it doesn't scream "I'm cool and do fair things". It screams "degenerate mana cheating here".

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 week ago

You know, I hadn't thought about it at the time, but had someone play a fair Flash in a game yesterday. I had a moment where I thought, "Hmm...you don't see much of Flash played..." but the game was going kind of fast at that point, and I didn't consider that it's banned. In that particular instance it literally only saved him 1 mana and got him a couple of instant-cast triggers, so it was fine, but looking back, I'm not exactly enthused that he was playing a banned card.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Keep in mind that flash hulk combo is fast and cheap to execute but its far more interactable than thoracle. Its less mana to execute but probably 5x easier to interact with. If it were legal today I think it would be playable and its similar / same colors in some instance with thoracle decks so it seems likely they would play both and just tutor for pieces based on what they draw.

If someone wants to play a non hulk flash I have no issues with it. I think its ambitious to say flash hulk is bad but thoracle is likely superior due to how few ways you can interact with it.
How is Hulk/Flash easier to interact with than Thoracle? The former needs to resolve a single instant spell for , while the latter needs to resolve but a creature for and an instant for either or . 2 mana, with only 1 colored pip vs 3 colored pips, or 4 mana with 3 colored pips is a HUGE difference. 1 spell vs 2 is a big difference, especially if the spells are different types, and one is sorcery speed.

I've had numerous games running Yuriko where I had the pieces to go for Thoracle, but didn't have the mana/pips to get there yet. I've had games where Oracle got countered, because an opponent had a counterspell that could hit that, but nothing that could hit Consult. I've had games where I stopped 3 other players from trying for Thoracle for multiple turns by holding up 2 mana and Geier Reach Sanitarium; if they try for the combo, I can force them to draw a card on an empty library before the Oracle trigger resolves. Flash-Hulk doesn't have a fail-state of 'you lose the game.'

Flash/Hulk is a problem because it's possible to pull off before your first turn has even begun. It's an issue because it can be done entirely at instant speed.

Now, sure, there are more pieces of interaction that can affect the Flash combo: graveyard hate in various forms, anti-tutoring hate, anti-ETB (also works vs Thoracle), anti-death trigger, Stifle effects (also Thoracle), but I don't think the argument that a stax piece or very narrow piece of interaction (like instant speed graveyard hate), that almost certainly costs more than Flash itself, is an argument that it's easier to interact with. Flash also works through Rule of Law effects, while Thoracle doesn't, and I've found those to be far more prevalent than most of the other options.

(As an aside, why are these referred to as Rule of Law effects when Arcane Laboratory came out much earlier? Is it just that they've shifted into white, or that the name is more thematic for what they do?)
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 week ago
Flash was explicitly banned because of its interaction with Protean Hulk. You can't play Protean Hulk. Therefore, your deck is unable to perform the very specific task that was the reason why the card was banned.

Go for it dude.
Flash can do quite a few other degenerate or semi-degenerate things. I really don't mind not seeing it played.

Honestly, I feel like we should probably have more cards on the banned list, not fewer.

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Post by duducrash » 1 week ago

As a general life rule, I'll try anything at least twice, If it's not fun I'll step away from it.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 week ago
There was the issue that if you had any of the creatures in hand or graveyard that it would delay the combo by a turn or two, and that the creatures were kind of bad on their own.
That is true. Its been banned long enough now that I am curious if there is any redundancy in effects that didn't used to exist. I haven't really looked into that but yes drawing the cards can be a problem. Last I saw it was an assemble Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo but I am wondering if there are any others he could assemble now.

Poking at it real quickly Junji, the Midnight Sky acts as redundancy for Phyrexian Delver. There are also multiple one mana sac outlet creatures. That really just puts the question on if there is a second combo he could assemble other than Mike and Trike. I suppose Mikaeus did normally set up the 5cmc creature for an extra use but there are some other options like maybe a Nightmare Shepherd could fill Mikaeus's role? I am unsure but I feel like there might be redundancy now that didn't used to exist.
yeti1069 wrote:
1 week ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Keep in mind that flash hulk combo is fast and cheap to execute but its far more interactable than thoracle. Its less mana to execute but probably 5x easier to interact with. If it were legal today I think it would be playable and its similar / same colors in some instance with thoracle decks so it seems likely they would play both and just tutor for pieces based on what they draw.

If someone wants to play a non hulk flash I have no issues with it. I think its ambitious to say flash hulk is bad but thoracle is likely superior due to how few ways you can interact with it.
How is Hulk/Flash easier to interact with than Thoracle? The former needs to resolve a single instant spell for , while the latter needs to resolve but a creature for and an instant for either or . 2 mana, with only 1 colored pip vs 3 colored pips, or 4 mana with 3 colored pips is a HUGE difference. 1 spell vs 2 is a big difference, especially if the spells are different types, and one is sorcery speed.

I've had numerous games running Yuriko where I had the pieces to go for Thoracle, but didn't have the mana/pips to get there yet. I've had games where Oracle got countered, because an opponent had a counterspell that could hit that, but nothing that could hit Consult. I've had games where I stopped 3 other players from trying for Thoracle for multiple turns by holding up 2 mana and Geier Reach Sanitarium; if they try for the combo, I can force them to draw a card on an empty library before the Oracle trigger resolves. Flash-Hulk doesn't have a fail-state of 'you lose the game.'

Flash/Hulk is a problem because it's possible to pull off before your first turn has even begun. It's an issue because it can be done entirely at instant speed.

Now, sure, there are more pieces of interaction that can affect the Flash combo: graveyard hate in various forms, anti-tutoring hate, anti-ETB (also works vs Thoracle), anti-death trigger, Stifle effects (also Thoracle), but I don't think the argument that a stax piece or very narrow piece of interaction (like instant speed graveyard hate), that almost certainly costs more than Flash itself, is an argument that it's easier to interact with. Flash also works through Rule of Law effects, while Thoracle doesn't, and I've found those to be far more prevalent than most of the other options.

(As an aside, why are these referred to as Rule of Law effects when Arcane Laboratory came out much earlier? Is it just that they've shifted into white, or that the name is more thematic for what they do?)
Its more interactable because spot interaction stops it, grave hate stops it, there are a few more frindge answers too but mainly those two work in addition to counter magic. Thoracle has a few things other than counter magic that can stop it but its primarily a counterspell defense combo. Its the difference between most colors having some level of access of interaction and "just play more blue". Both flash hulk and thoracle are both 2 card in hand combos.

Flash Hulk is a faster wincon but its more vulnerable to disruption in there are more things that interact with it. I don't think we need to argue which is better I would rather neither of them be executed but if I had to pick I guess I would rather play against the one with more interaction elements. But I would rather play against neither of them.

Its funny to hear about Geier Reach Sanitarium as all they need to do is cut it with a few cards in deck and have some devotion on board. It is risky I guess if oracle is their only blue permeant but resolving their commander to play and then casting Thoracle should give enough to go for one card in deck and bypass your Sanitarium defense.

The likelihood of having Flash + Hulk in an opening hand with T1 mana seems..... unlikely but I guess it can happen.

Tainted Pact is an instant so the only reason they can't execute oracle through Rule of Law is the assumption that an opponent has a counterspell and that situation is the same setup for Flash. Going for Thoracle is more of an all in move though I guess if it fails where as you might be able to slow roll a flashhulk deck still.
Last edited by ISBPathfinder 1 week ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 week ago

yeti1069 wrote:
1 week ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 week ago
Flash was explicitly banned because of its interaction with Protean Hulk. You can't play Protean Hulk. Therefore, your deck is unable to perform the very specific task that was the reason why the card was banned.

Go for it dude.
Flash can do quite a few other degenerate or semi-degenerate things. I really don't mind not seeing it played.
Degeneracy? In EDH? Perish the thought.
Honestly, I feel like we should probably have more cards on the banned list, not fewer.
I think we need a different approach to the banlist, but that's another discussion entirely.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 week ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
darrenhabib wrote:
1 week ago
There was the issue that if you had any of the creatures in hand or graveyard that it would delay the combo by a turn or two, and that the creatures were kind of bad on their own.
That is true. Its been banned long enough now that I am curious if there is any redundancy in effects that didn't used to exist. I haven't really looked into that but yes drawing the cards can be a problem. Last I saw it was an assemble Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo but I am wondering if there are any others he could assemble now.

Poking at it real quickly Junji, the Midnight Sky acts as redundancy for Phyrexian Delver. There are also multiple one mana sac outlet creatures. That really just puts the question on if there is a second combo he could assemble other than Mike and Trike. I suppose Mikaeus did normally set up the 5cmc creature for an extra use but there are some other options like maybe a Nightmare Shepherd could fill Mikaeus's role? I am unsure but I feel like there might be redundancy now that didn't used to exist.
yeti1069 wrote:
1 week ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 week ago
Keep in mind that flash hulk combo is fast and cheap to execute but its far more interactable than thoracle. Its less mana to execute but probably 5x easier to interact with. If it were legal today I think it would be playable and its similar / same colors in some instance with thoracle decks so it seems likely they would play both and just tutor for pieces based on what they draw.

If someone wants to play a non hulk flash I have no issues with it. I think its ambitious to say flash hulk is bad but thoracle is likely superior due to how few ways you can interact with it.
How is Hulk/Flash easier to interact with than Thoracle? The former needs to resolve a single instant spell for , while the latter needs to resolve but a creature for and an instant for either or . 2 mana, with only 1 colored pip vs 3 colored pips, or 4 mana with 3 colored pips is a HUGE difference. 1 spell vs 2 is a big difference, especially if the spells are different types, and one is sorcery speed.

I've had numerous games running Yuriko where I had the pieces to go for Thoracle, but didn't have the mana/pips to get there yet. I've had games where Oracle got countered, because an opponent had a counterspell that could hit that, but nothing that could hit Consult. I've had games where I stopped 3 other players from trying for Thoracle for multiple turns by holding up 2 mana and Geier Reach Sanitarium; if they try for the combo, I can force them to draw a card on an empty library before the Oracle trigger resolves. Flash-Hulk doesn't have a fail-state of 'you lose the game.'

Flash/Hulk is a problem because it's possible to pull off before your first turn has even begun. It's an issue because it can be done entirely at instant speed.

Now, sure, there are more pieces of interaction that can affect the Flash combo: graveyard hate in various forms, anti-tutoring hate, anti-ETB (also works vs Thoracle), anti-death trigger, Stifle effects (also Thoracle), but I don't think the argument that a stax piece or very narrow piece of interaction (like instant speed graveyard hate), that almost certainly costs more than Flash itself, is an argument that it's easier to interact with. Flash also works through Rule of Law effects, while Thoracle doesn't, and I've found those to be far more prevalent than most of the other options.

(As an aside, why are these referred to as Rule of Law effects when Arcane Laboratory came out much earlier? Is it just that they've shifted into white, or that the name is more thematic for what they do?)
Its more interactable because spot interaction stops it, grave hate stops it, there are a few more frindge answers too but mainly those two work in addition to counter magic. Thoracle has a few things other than counter magic that can stop it but its primarily a counterspell defense combo. Its the difference between most colors having some level of access of interaction and "just play more blue". Both flash hulk and thoracle are both 2 card in hand combos.

Flash Hulk is a faster wincon but its more vulnerable to disruption in there are more things that interact with it. I don't think we need to argue which is better I would rather neither of them be executed but if I had to pick I guess I would rather play against the one with more interaction elements. But I would rather play against neither of them.

Its funny to hear about Geier Reach Sanitarium as all they need to do is cut it with a few cards in deck and have some devotion on board. It is risky I guess if oracle is their only blue permeant but resolving their commander to play and then casting Thoracle should give enough to go for one card in deck and bypass your Sanitarium defense.

The likelihood of having Flash + Hulk in an opening hand with T1 mana seems..... unlikely but I guess it can happen.

Tainted Pact is an instant so the only reason they can't execute oracle through Rule of Law is the assumption that an opponent has a counterspell and that situation is the same setup for Flash. Going for Thoracle is more of an all in move though I guess if it fails where as you might be able to slow roll a flashhulk deck still.
So, with Pact, yeah, you can choose to stop with just a card or two left in the library, but that's only an option for Consultation if you know exactly what card is on the bottom of your deck (such as by having scryed it to the bottom). The former case means you need on your turn, instead of for Consult, or for Flash, and the latter is simply unlikely. And again, sure, you could Pact on end step, then cast Thoracle on your turn, but you still have the fail case of simply losing if Thoracle gets stopped somehow. Once you start leaving cards in the library, you open yourself up to things like Noxious Revival or Endurance putting you beyond your devotion, while still ensuring that you've functionally lost in most cases. Flash-Hulk is 2 cards, maybe 4-6 committed to the win, and if it gets stopped, you still have the rest of your deck to try and win with.

Now, personally, I wouldn't necessarily mind Thoracle getting banned, but doing so would just make it more difficult for some decks to find combos, while others still have fairly efficient lines available to them.

As for alternatives to Mike+Trike, there are some options. I've run Hulk combos in Meren, and elected to not run Triskelion, because it's a garbage card outside of the combo. For backups, there's any number of persist creatures + any number of creatures that provide a +1/+1 counter or remove counters. I would do convoluted lines with Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest + Puppeteer Clique. That then also requires something like a Blood Artist unless your opponents have creatures in their yards that can either continue your engine, or win with combat. In high-power, non-cEDH games I've grabbed someone's Craterhoof out of their yard, then sacrificed it, and repeated enough times to give my 2 creatures able to attack + their Craterhoof essentially infinite power to swing 1 creature at each opponent for the win. I'm sure there are more compact versions that could be run in cEDH. The benefit of my approach was that each of the pieces were solid cards in the deck on their own (unlike Trike).

As you observed, Junji offers some redundancy for Delver, or a way to shave down the amount of life required to complete the steps. Junji can also be used in conjunction with some other cards to be the finisher as well.

I'm sure there must be a way to Hulk into The Gitrog Monster combo lines.

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Post by RxPhantom » 1 week ago

Oh man, this thread got analytical. Looking at my Tresserhorn list, I don't think it would be too degenerate. All of the old and new Kamigawa dragon spirits are there, maybe Aura Thief could be funny. Vindictive Lich could be annoying. It really just lets me be tricksy most of the time.
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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 week ago

Yea we were just debating if it was or wasn't still an issue from a cEDH perspective which its debatable where it stands vs thoracle but its likely still a very big problem at the top end.

Now, I don't think its a problem when used to a lesser tier and I personally wouldn't mind that much if you asked ahead of time to play it to a lesser use but then the question is if the next guy owns a mox can he play that? I have always had a bit of a problem augmenting the banned list plus or minus due to this because you need to ask like.... every time and then some people do kind of have an issue with it or the next guy asks if he can play something a little more degenerate and its just the question of where it goes to as a precedent. So..... no offhand I don't really have an issue with any one particular standout but I kind of hate making the precident that its ok as well. I have never felt like augmenting the banned list is something that really works at a LGS because you really need the store owner to set the augmented rules for it to really feel official and then they need to be stated like everywhere for everyone to know the rules augment. I just think its not great even though its always been encouraged.

TLDR: I don't have a specific issue with you using flash so much as I don't like augmenting the official banned list. I don't agree with the official banned list but I do believe in everyone using it for what it is and if you want to use something my official stance is to lobby for a banning / unbanning rather than asking me if you can use it. I acknowledge how hard this is but its also sort of where I stand.
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Post by yeti1069 » 1 week ago

RxPhantom wrote:
1 week ago
Oh man, this thread got analytical. Looking at my Tresserhorn list, I don't think it would be too degenerate. All of the old and new Kamigawa dragon spirits are there, maybe Aura Thief could be funny. Vindictive Lich could be annoying. It really just lets me be tricksy most of the time.
Maybe Prime Time is just getting 2 Forests a turn?
Maybe a Mox is ramping out a Grizzly Bears?
Maybe you're going to put Vision Skeins on your Panoptic Mirror in a pure group hug deck?

I think it's just waaaaay easier to say no to these kinds of requests than to have to get into the nuances of whether a card is being played "fairly," especially given how often I play against people who claim they're not running combos, or not doing anything ridiculous...and then they "oops" into a combo, or "whoops! I just put half my deck onto the battlefield." And that's before even getting into the shades of preference/tolerance for what is/isn't fun gameplay.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 week ago

I never liked the ban of Flash to begin with because I am still firm in the belief that the banlist should not cater to cEDH. If people want to play degenerately then they can do so and there will never be enough bans to truly balance the format around a more competitive mindset.,

That being said, my vote would be "No" if this is brought up at the table. Especially if you are a rando I am sitting down with for the first time. Even if you were part of an established group I am in, it would need a pretty decent discussion to say its fine. And even then it would take a lot of convincing. In the end, the banlist is the banlist whether we like cards on it or not. Recurring Nightmare and Gifts Ungiven are my two that I would love to see come off. But, they are on there and I am not going out of my way to convince people to let me play them.

EDH is all about building within restrictions. The banlist is just one of them. I don't see a great reason to eliminate that restriction for a single card for a single player even if I don't completely agree with the ban to begin with.

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Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

RxPhantom wrote:
1 week ago
I miss Flash, and I still don't think it was fair that this supercool card that does supercool things in my supercool deck got the axe just for cEDH. I really want to play it again, so I ask you: if we had our pre-game discussion and I asked the table if it was cool for me to run Flash, what would you say? Further, would you let me win with it? Would you be bitter if it enabled me to make a decisive or even game-winning play? Would you consider my victory to be unearned? Would it come with an asterisk, in your view?
I also miss Flash.

I'd allow it, with the expectation that it is a powerful card. Once I've allowed it, whatever happens in the game is fine... but, whether I agree to play with you while you have Flash in your deck (or play with you ever again if you decide to 'gotcha' and do the Protean + en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist + ThOracle thing) is another story.

I generally think it's okay and should be unbanned. I think it's even okay to win with it unless you're using it for a deterministic combo (like Protean Hulk). I have an understanding that it's a powerful card, and if I agree to play with you while you have Flash in your deck, it's with the understanding that you're going to play something suboptimal with it.

Nb. There are lots of legal cards I avoid playing with or against. I don't especially like it when people play Armageddon, and have the same kind of discussion about (though, Armageddon is rarely 'interesting').

So, yeah. Just ask, I'll say yes, and unless you're being a tool and trying to demo why cEDH players wanted it banned, I won't mind.

Short answers: Yes, you can play with it. Yes, you can win with it. No bitterness. Victory is 'earned', whatever that means. No asterisk.

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Post by pokken » 1 week ago

I really don't care. I'd rather someone play flash than Mana Crypt or The One Ring

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