[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Leonin Shikari

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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

silly card <3 only ever cast it on the old DOS game, never dabbled in high powered vintage stuff. I do have a few old Mana Vault|revs and tbh they're nearly as preposterous

don't know how to talk about fast mana sensibly when even Wild Growth obviously destabilizes the game

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
The original is strong, but I'm also with Dirk here. Strong in the highest levels, middling at lower power.

As for legal equivalents, there are very few I run myself. Most of the actual lotus equivalents like Gilded or Petal or Blossom are either average or extremely narrow (Petal). And as for LED, its ubiquity speaks more to how strong Underworld Breach and possibly Muldrotha, the Gravetide are more than anything else. Its very narrow outside of dedicated graveyard strategies.
Madness likes it. And it can be used for activated abilities and such, but that's really all I've got.

I've only played the OG in the Win95 game myself. So, I suppose I should mention using it with Sol Ring for a t1 Serra Angel?
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Black Lotus is one of the most iconic - and powerful - cards in the game. As others have noted, it's exceedingly busted at high levels of power - similar to Sol Ring and other fast mana, its ability to power out snowbally engines ahead of the curve is extremely powerful in short games. On the other hand, if you're in a slower meta, the one-time burst of mana will go down in value. There are ways to generate additional value from it - Emry, Lurker of the Loch, Salvaging Station, and Auriok Salvagers come to mind - but if you're just playing it once, it's less exciting.

....still, definitely for the best that it is banned - the format doesn't need more fast mana.

As for the variants...
  • I didn't realize how cheap the reprint made Lotus Bloom - I may have to pick up a copy. I don't think it's great for most decks, but it's very interesting if you have ways to abuse it (read: probably Salvaging Station).
  • Lion's Eye Diamond is a bit more difficult to take advantage of, but the fact that you can always use it to cast your commander does give it some inherent value in EDH... although discarding your hand to power out your commander is a pretty all-in move. Still, it has implications in decks like Muldrotha, the Gravetide and Damia, Sage of Stone.
  • Jeweled Lotus is... narrow, but powerful, and certainly a mistake to print. It's a very high-variance card - it's either broken or negligible, with very little space in between.
  • Lotus Petal is the miniature version of all of these - still broken in a cEDH setting, but weak elsewhere. I've considered it for a few decks, and will probably pick up a few copies if it ever gets reprinted. There are definitely decks where powering out the commander even a single turn sooner can have a pretty massive impact... although it will often lead to a worse game. Not something I would recommend unless you're feeling particularly Spike-y.
...I'll also call out Diamond Lion, which is even more narrow than LED. I consider Gilded Lotus / Nyx Lotus / Lotus Field / Lotus Vale to be in an entirely different card category due to their repeatable nature.

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Post by illakunsaa » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
I have nothing to say on Lion's Eye Diamond other than bafflement at its 16,000 decks on EDHRECs. I know this card is good, that just feels really high especially since all its best commanders are partners.
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Post by wildfire393 » 2 years ago

I've owned a Lotus for ages, but have had scant few opportunities to play it. Last time I can remember was in a cube where I turn one'd a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, which is a pretty brutal clock.

The card is obviously dummy good in Commander, as even neutered versions of it like Jeweled Lotus are quite strong. It being legal would just compound the explosive start syndrome that many games fall prey to.

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Post by Igzex » 2 years ago

Mookie wrote:
2 years ago
Igzex wrote:
2 years ago
While it has its uses in a control heavy table, I'm more inclined to drop this on the table as a social experiment, to see how my opponents act towards each other when deception is no longer an option.
....if my immediate response to Telepathy is to drop a Sire of Insanity, does that make me a genius or a monster? :thinking:
I dunno but I can assure you if my telepathy revealed your Sire I'd just sit back, twiddle my fingers, and say "Yes...Yes. Summon him...DO IT."

As for the cards at hand, I mean yeah Black Lotus is so good they had to do it more than once :P

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Thursday, January 20th, 2022; The Monument Cycle



It was recently brought to my attention that these are actually good, with hazoret's being the best of the bunch and a $3 common. Idk how true that is, but is it?

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Post by wildfire393 » 2 years ago

I've used the black and red ones in Chainer, Dementia Master. Red gives looting to help get stuff into the graveyard and generate card advantage with Squee/Krovikan Horror, and black gives Yet Another Blood Artist effect. The cost reduction is pretty handy as well, since ideally the deck was activating Chainer several times in a turn cycle to cast Flash dudes, so you could get 2-3 mana discounts each turn out of a single monument.

I haven't used White or Green, but I've seen them used. White is a solid token generator for any mono/primary-white go-wide strategy, and the green one adds up damage very quickly, especially if you're playing various power-matters stuff like Cultivator of Blades, Wild Beastmaster, Master Biomancer and friends.

Blue is definitely the weakest, between blue strategies generally being less creature-dependent and the cast a creature trigger being fairly uninspiring (it doesn't tap things, it just keeps them tapped).

It is also worth noting that only the cost reduction effect is tied to creatures of that color, so there's nothing stopping you from jamming these into decks that aren't that color purely for the cast trigger. It's one of those cases where you see an ability and want to maximize it, but it's actually the weaker ability and doing so will put on blinders to how the card could really be used. Any deck that's spamming creatures and can make use of the cast trigger should really be considering these even off-color. Maybe even especially off-color. Hazoret's Monument in a Karametra, God of Harvests deck could keep you drawing creatures as you dump lands into play. Bontu's Monument in Karametra or Ephara, God of the Polis can add an Impact Tremors type effect to a deck that doesn't normally get many of those. Bontu could also rock it in a Heliod, Sun-Crowned deck as a way to get more lifegain triggers off of playing creatures.

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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

The real bummer is you cannot clone them!
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Thursday, January 20th, 2022; The Monument Cycle

It was recently brought to my attention that these are actually good, with hazoret's being the best of the bunch and a $3 common. Idk how true that is, but is it?
These are actually fairly good. I've probably played with Oketra's the most.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Bontu's is probably the most infamous, as it's often used as a payoff and enabler for various combos. Hazoret is still quite respectable as a graveyard enabler, cost reducer and filter, all of which are desirable in creature-based decks, particularly as the red ones tend to skew more aggressive. Oketra's tends to fall in an odd place, as the tokens are often win-more in generic creature-based decks, and token decks tend not to actually *cast* that many creatures.

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Post by Dunharrow » 2 years ago

I don't know if I have any decks running enough creatures to make use of these. As combo cards they are fine but I feel like there are better options.
I dunno. I think I will give more consideration
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

I like these monuments, and have played with a few of them at least a few times:

Oketra's Monument is amongst the strongest. White lacks clean ramp so this is a fine enough "3 mana rock" for a monowhite creature deck. A free dork on any creature cast, discounted or not, can be pretty big and gives this a home in both Aristocrat-y style decks and Token decks, which covers a significant amount of the territory white likes to play in. I'd call this borderline mandatory in a monowhite deck with any appreciable creature count, and very good in most two-color white decks with a CMC 4+ Commander. It would still stay playable in 3 color decks with a CMC 5+ Commander, so long as a decent percent of the creatures were white. I've played this in several spots and it's been really solid.

Bontu's Monument is also pretty solid, but at its best in a bleed-ery deck. There are plenty of aggressive B/x decks (like Edgar Markov vampires or Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow ninjas, where taking a turn off to cast this just isn't worth it and won't pay for itself. For perspective, with the delay I'd say that Oketra's needs to trigger at least 4 times to be better than just jamming Spectral Procession if all you cared about was bodies, which feels reasonably likely with a round or two around the table. This is "just damage" so it definitely needs to trigger closer to 5-6 times to pay for itself, and that just isn't for every black deck. Awesome in an aristocrat-y deck that can use it though and relevant enough to derpier black tribal lists (Rats, Demons). I think the price is due to it being a mandatory piece of Acererak the Archlich which is only at 245 decks but is a fun little hipster build.

Hazoret's Monument seems a bit overrated to me. I run cards like Thrill of Possibility and Cathartic Reunion mostly as a matter of necessity in Red, Gruul, Boros, and some Rakdos decks as rummaging is always really awkward. This also never really "pays for itself" by itself - so you really need it to be in decks that care about discarding cards or care about filling their 'yard as otherwise you're spending 3 mana in, say, a goblin deck to just have some handfixing later. Don't get me wrong, this is still a solid card and is eminently playable in monored decks with 25+ creatures and a more midrange plan as well as discard-centric decks like Minotaur Tribal or Madness. But having tried it even in decks where it ought to be pretty great like Grusilda, Monster Masher reanimator, Anje Falkenrath Madness, Wort, the Raidmother spellslinger, and Daretti, Scrap Savant artifacts and legends, it has been a bit underwhelming.

Rhonas's Monument is where the line goes from "fairly playable" to "not super playable". Part of the problem is that green is THE ramp color, so a 3 mana pseudo-rock/creature-only Emerald Medallion isn't as great for monogreen as the first three were to monodecks. Part of it is that the trigger isn't all that useful, giving a one-shot boost to a single creature. This is at its best in a deck that runs a lot of little dorks but is open to a voltron plan, or a trample tribal deck with Stonebrow, Krosan Hero...but even there, I'd likely be looking to Garruk's Uprising for my trample needs and Sylvan Anthem as my "pay off for playing a ton of small dorks".

Kefnet's Monument is the loser of the cycle. It's not uncommon for a blue deck to run precious few creatures as the spell color. Blue decks with a heavy creature count are often going to be merfolk, rogue, ninja, or artifact decks where the discount is unlikely to matter. Even if the discount does matter (in a Faerie, Sphinx, or Seamonsters deck) the trigger itself is hyper conditional. I would still probably give it a look for really top-heavy creature decks in monoblue or Simic/Izzet, like Sphinx and Seamonster, with a special nod to seamonsters since they're likely to have some ways to force the tapping issue.

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

I've played a fair amount with Oketra's Monument. It ended up getting cut from my Teysa deck, largely because I realized I wasn't actually casting that many white creature spells - my creature base skews pretty heavily towards black creatures. As a result, I wasn't getting enough mileage out of the cost reduction. The token production was still nice, but I've since swapped to some different token producers - I also noticed that it tends to encourage overextending, which left me a bit too vulnerable to board wipes.

....outside my specific build, I think Oketra's Monument can be pretty powerful. The best use case is probably alongside Whitemane Lion in Karametra, God of Harvests decks, but any deck running a lot of white creatures will benefit - white doesn't have many cost reduction effects. That said, if you don't have some way to turn your cheap creatures into more creatures, you may just run out of gas. I suppose Skullclamp exists though.

Hazoret's Monument is probably the next-best, but I've never been a big fan of rummage effects. It could make sense if your deck is specifically built to take advantage of discard (ex: madness) or if you're doing some combo shenanigans to churn through your entire deck, but otherwise I would pass.

Bontu's Monument and Rhonas's Monument cover somewhat similar roles as potential win conditions if you can cast enough creatures. Of the two, I prefer Bontu's, but Rhonas's can be good if you're running a non-evasive commander that can make use of the trample.

Kefnet's Monument is certainly the dud of the cycle - it doesn't even tap the creature down, so it needs to already be tapped. I could see it in decks that care about tapping creatures like Tromokratis, but otherwise I can't think of any uses.

Overall, I think the cycle is a bit on the weaker side - you really want to have a deck that can take advantage of both the cost reduction and the trigger, which will often limit them to monocolor decks. Otherwise, I would go for a more consistent mana rock.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 years ago
I don't know if I have any decks running enough creatures to make use of these. As combo cards they are fine but I feel like there are better options.
I dunno. I think I will give more consideration
Bontu, Rhonas, and Oketra can win the game with Aluren and any creature with cmc 3 or less that bounces a creature (possibly itself) on entry (such as a whole subset of Planechase). The old Timid Drake combo lives again.

They do have their value in some sort of Winter Orb Stax as well, though they're going to be second to the medallions, most likely. Of course, that also excludes Kefnet, since if I'm doing Lockdown Stax right, I'm probably also running Meekstone.
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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

played Kefnet's Monument in a wizardy Equilibrium + both Barrins deck where it was more helpful for the medallion text than the freezing ability. think these things deserve more play? edit: commander was Gadwick, the Wizened who combines with Monument unreasonably well lol, I guess that has informed the way I like this one

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
It was recently brought to my attention that these are actually good, with hazoret's being the best of the bunch and a $3 common. Idk how true that is, but is it?
Hazorets? I think you mean Bontu's. Also uncommon not common. Looks like Bontu is almost $6 tcg, kefnets is crap, and the rest are a little north of $1.

Anyway you have to play creatures for these to be good so I've never played them, lol.
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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Hmm, still irks me a little that their trigger doesn't check for color as well, since i usually appreciate pay-offs for mono decks.

I consider Hazoret's Monument to be the strongest as it can set you up to chain creatures by itself. When you get it to combo it'll churn through your deck until you hit your actual finisher.
Bontu's Monument would be second for me. The incremental damage isn't massive but when you get it rolling it is a valid threat/finisher. Best served with creature combos - i used it in Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle.
Oketra's Monument as a third is in a weird spot, since actual token decks don't run as many creatures and nontoken creature decks don't necessarily need additional token bodies. But they have vigilance and Warrior is a well supported creature type.
Rhonas's Monument as a third is the first one significantly worse. Pumping creatures one by one seems fairly tedious and pumping a single one would make you susceptible to spot removal.
Kefnet's Monument is so damn uninspiring. Doesn't tap creatures down itself, isn't in the best colors for creatures anyhow, ... bland.

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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

Hot take -- Jeweled Lotus is worse for a game of Commander than Black Lotus would be, because it can only cast threats, not answers. (Well, unless your commander is an answer, like, say, Visara the Dreadful or Tsabo Tavoc. But how common is that? Be honest.) Meanwhile, Black Lotus can be used to cast answers to too-early threats powered out by fast mana. When someone drops 20 power on the table t1 in Vintage, and you can respond with a t1 Supreme Verdict or Moat of your own? Feels good. I know that from experience. Jeweled Lotus only ever makes games worse, where Black Lotus could sometimes make them better.

I have Lotus Bloom|63201 in Ranar the Ever-Watchful Foretell/Suspend. Nice and synergistic there. The others, though? Meh.

On the monuments -- they're okay, I guess? Oketra's Monument is the only one I could really see myself playing outside of something really wildly specific, and even then, I certainly don't currently have the deck for it. Generally, if I'm playing ramp, I'd prefer it to be universal, or very significant for its cost. The added bonuses are nice, but overall not big enough to pull me away from dedicated ramp that helps with noncreatures too.
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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

Fast mana shifts any game from casual to competitive.
The spirit of the format is casual.
Get rid of fast mana.


Rhonas's Monument works well in Surrak, the Hunt Caller!
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
Kefnet's Monument is the loser of the cycle. It's not uncommon for a blue deck to run precious few creatures as the spell color. Blue decks with a heavy creature count are often going to be merfolk, rogue, ninja, or artifact decks where the discount is unlikely to matter. Even if the discount does matter (in a Faerie, Sphinx, or Seamonsters deck) the trigger itself is hyper conditional. I would still probably give it a look for really top-heavy creature decks in monoblue or Simic/Izzet, like Sphinx and Seamonster, with a special nod to seamonsters since they're likely to have some ways to force the tapping issue.
One side note, Kefnet's Monument is probably really good if you want to play a Persistent Petitioners deck.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Friday, January 21st, 2022; Bolas's Citadel|plg21



Couldn't remember if this has come up before, but well it IIS iconic and it's sure to ellicit conversation at least.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Serenade wrote:
2 years ago

Rhonas's Monument works well in Surrak, the Hunt Caller!
Also in Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma! Man, reducing your fatty fat mana values by 3 is the real deal.....

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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Serenade wrote:
2 years ago

Rhonas's Monument works well in Surrak, the Hunt Caller!
Also in Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma! Man, reducing your fatty fat mana values by 3 is the real deal.....
Gotta add Krosan Drover so that we can jam Apex Devastator and Impervious Greatwurm on like turn 6. :explode:

To today's card - I don't own one and haven't played it, but a guy in our playgroup loves this card and has jammed it in Oloro, Ageless Ascetic (where it is, as one might expect, an absolutely insane card advantage engine) and Kaalia of the Vast (where it was a much more questionable inclusion). He's even activated that secondary ability in Oloro, although he didn't know that Phelddagrif cared not about being in single digits. The card is insanely strong and busted, but in the best EDH way imo - a way that feels crazy and risky and makes for insane turns and plays but that is also totally disrupt-able and prone to bricking itself.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
Gotta add Krosan Drover so that we can jam Apex Devastator and Impervious Greatwurm on like turn 6. :explode:
Craw Blade ---->

C'mon, get outta here with your overpowered 16/16 indestructible on t6, that's way too stronk for this format :P

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