[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Leonin Shikari

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I really like this card. It's a good design that fits into decks that want to draw cards off creatures but isn't usually comboriffic - incremental value for your gameplan. Having it be an on-cast trigger is really nice for giving an option to play around Torpor Orb effects.

All in all it's a fine design that sees a decent amount of play and gives some options but isn't overpowered.

Not like *cough* Beast Whisperer and Guardian Project which are just instant overpowered must-remove-on-sight staples with no thought really required. I do not understand why they can't learn their lessons on stuff like when things should have a cost or not and what an actual constraint is.

Put "green" on Beast Whisperer or "non-elf" or something and suddenly it's kind of interesting. Set aside the thematic issues with beast whisperer beast whisperering other elves :P

--------

When i think about cards like this I think like -- what's going to happen if I let this stick around?

If I let a Beast Whisperer stick around I am going to lose guaranteed, but beastiary I might be able to out-tempo, and it's far less likely to be a combo outlet.

I feel like a well designed card for EDH is one that I have to think really hard about spending spot removal on.

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
And again since you didn't catch it somehow I'll reiterate I think that group hug decks win a decent number of games against underpowered opponents. But that's because the playstyle convinces people it's okay to punch down.
I didn't miss anything. I could just spend volumes digging into a single statement like this. You think group hug decks win a decent number of games, though only one you've ever been in, so why would you think that? You accuse the playstyle of punching down against underpowered opponents, but if it's a fair match where everyone participates and can win, in what sense is it punching down? What sort of thought process do you have to be going through to think "well, that deck can never keep up against me, but maybe it does ok against weaker opponents" and assign that situation an implication of wrongdoing by the player you supposedly almost never lose to?

The truth is almost certainly that you don't like playing against group hug personally and don't enjoy the play patterns. Which is fine. Lots of people do enjoy the play patterns made by group hug decks. All the nonsense about kingmaking (which in this discussion isn't actually kingmaking, it's just not winning), or not being able to win the game, or what have you, that's all you rationalizing why your subjective preferences are objectively correct. And there's no need for that.
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
My opponents drawing multiple cards per turn makes it basically impossible to actually stick Gishath, Sun's Avatar because no one is ever going to run out of removal. So that basically never wants to play against Howling Mine ever.
That is perfectly well reasoned, and in the situation made by your deck choice, that decision makes sense. What I don't like is treating that differently than any other subset of cards. Your Gishath deck is bad against Howling Mines. Graveyard decks are bad against graveyard hate. Storm decks are bad against a bunch of hate bears. Like, your Gishath deck, by your argument, would probably have a bad time with my Zedruu at the table. At the same time, my Zedruu deck has a real bad time if someone sits down with Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. It would be piss poor of me to then say "well, now we're hardly even playing Magic, this doesn't tell me anything about how my deck works, I wanted a normal game of Magic and you've ruined it."
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Post by Dunharrow » 2 years ago

I always end up cutting Lifecrafter's Bestiary. I don't like that I have to pay mana to draw the card. I also don't like that it's an artifact. It's okay, but there are better options.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 years ago

Poke'dex looks like a pretty good card, but as mentioned above, it is almost too fair. I don't currently have any place I want to use it, and any creature heavy deck that would want this would probably want a better card in it's place. If I'm playing small creatures, I don't want to tax my mana when I could draw without paying. If I'm playing large creatures, I could get Trample and/or ETB draw on tokens as well. So while I like the card, it is low enough on the green creature-based draw engine list that I may not get around to playing it. I also like The Great Henge, but that is quite pricey, so I don't have one yet.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
And again since you didn't catch it somehow I'll reiterate I think that group hug decks win a decent number of games against underpowered opponents. But that's because the playstyle convinces people it's okay to punch down.
I didn't miss anything. I could just spend volumes digging into a single statement like this. You think group hug decks win a decent number of games, though only one you've ever been in, so why would you think that? You accuse the playstyle of punching down against underpowered opponents, but if it's a fair match where everyone participates and can win, in what sense is it punching down? What sort of thought process do you have to be going through to think "well, that deck can never keep up against me, but maybe it does ok against weaker opponents" and assign that situation an implication of wrongdoing by the player you supposedly almost never lose to?
I have friends and I watch other people play. I have seen the same group hug decks people rave about flop against me (and a few of my friends who build good decks).

The thought process is I see these decks winning disproportionately against weak decks and then underperforming against strong decks. Which shows that they have a bad understanding of their decks power level.

I have a pretty unusually strong grasp of deck power levels and carefully choose my deck in every group so the odds I am outpowering the table are low. I usually win by having a better grasp of board states and better understanding my competitive position (e.g. Who's the beatdown).

It's also worth noting the nuance between "this deck can't compete against me" and "this deck can't win games if I'm at the table." When I'm playing most likely my more enfranchised friends are also playing and we're as a group better than the average player. And I specifically will not let a group hug deck do their thing without pressure.

That's what mine decks really thrive on honestly is getting people to leave them alone because they're hugging.

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

I ran Lifecrafter's Bestiary for a while, but Beast Whisperer and Guardian Project were printed almost immediately afterwards and replaced it - it really says something about the state of green, given that Mentor of the Meek has been a staple in white decks since its printing a decade ago. And I suppose those may be pushed out by The Great Henge? Hmmm.... Anyway, needing to pay for every creature adds up quickly, especially if you're casting a lot of creatures. The upkeep scry is nice, but largely redundant if you're drawing a lot of cards. As a result, I'm not sure if there is still a home for it.

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Post by brainface » 2 years ago

Lifecrafter's Bestiary would be so much better if it were equipped with lights and sounds to remind me of the scry trigger.

"Kicker G: Draw a card" stapled on every creature card is pretty much something I'll always take, though. There may be better effects but I have a lot of decks and the bestiary is cheap and works. \o/

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Post by JWK » 2 years ago

Today's card is a fine card that I used to run in a lot of decks, but which I think has been cut from all of my current decks due to green having so many good creature-based card draw options these days, and because I found that paying the extra green to draw often resulted in the card doing less than I would have wished. Beast Whisperer, Guardian Project and Garruk's Uprising are among the cards that have edged out the Bestiary. It's still a fine card, though, and much more budget than Guardian Project.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

Well, it costs 3 instead of 3g or 2gg, but you pay with each trigger. But you do get scry. And artifacts aren't as vulnerable as creatures.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

The bestiary is a big missed opportunity imo; if the extra cost was colorless this would be excellent for monocolor decks outside of blue/green. Green has way better engines than this, but red or white? That'd be awesome.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

It's fine, but not spectacular. Green has no innate artifact synergy, so unless you're really wanting your topdeck to sculpted (or you wanna run a card that's basically a Pokedex) you're often better off with Beast Whisperer, Guardian Project, Garruk's Uprising or even Zendikar Resurgent.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
The bestiary is a big missed opportunity imo; if the extra cost was colorless this would be excellent for monocolor decks outside of blue/green. Green has way better engines than this, but red or white? That'd be awesome.
It's part of a loose cycle spread across KLD and AER of colorless artifacts with colored abilities: Peacewalker Colossus, Merchant's Dockhand, Scrapheap Scrounger, Bomat Courier, and Lifecrafter's Bestiary.

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Monday, June 21st, 2021; Lifecrafter's Bestiary
I like to call this one 'the pokedex'.

It was kind of good, briefly, and then immediately got power crept out by a handful of other cards. It's kind of sad.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021; Utter End|pktk



...why is this trending at over $2? This is not a $2 card, even in the covidconomy. This is bulk strong...

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 years ago

Never played it. I don't like 4 mana removal, even at instant. I say this as someone who gladly plays 3mv sorcery removal instead. Vindicate being the current slot holder. Especially in

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021; Utter End
I have played this card a lot. It does what it does.

I think it rotated out from my decks when Despark was printed in WAR.

Two things killed this card for me:
1. The competition in W/B is fierce. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Winds of Abandon, Anguished Unmaking, and Despark, are all cheaper and pretty powerful.
2. The format feels faster than ever. I find myself using Mortify and Vindicate over Utter End despite the flexibility/exile effect; 4 mana seems to be the threshold for 'has to be an incredibly good answer', and I don't believe Utter End is good enough. If I didn't care about creatures, I'd probably play Fracture.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

4 mana is right at the breaking point for me where I don't usually want to pay it. 3 is the sweet spot for me.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

There are a lot of good 3cmc removal spells I'd play over it, so it's extremely hard for this to make the cut. That said, I would pick this before Vindicate or basically any other single-target sorcery-speed removal every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021; Utter End|pktk



...why is this trending at over $2? This is not a $2 card, even in the covidconomy. This is bulk strong...
Probably because Anguished Unmaking is trending towards $8?

This is also the "best" removal for Mardu Sunforger decks, and Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale is one of the most played Mardu commanders but probably tends towards "budget" as a brawl-star.

That being said, you're not wrong. Despark, Swords to Plowshares. Path to Exile, and Generous Gift are all better spells - Despark and Gift are also cheaper, money-wise, and Swords and Path are just great investments for a player as the best white spells in the format. If one is on a budget, I also don't despise Fracture or Mortify for my multi-permament targeting removal in WBx. And those are just all the instants that are less than 4 mana value and around $2 or less - there's also Vindicate or any number of Oblivion Ring-type effects, if one wants them, Black also has a long, long list of creature removal spells if you only care about creatures, and has Feed the Swarm and Hero's Downfall if you want to hit more card types.

If this was RW or GW (I know it's not in color pie for them but stay with me here) I would consider it more often just since there can be a paucity of good removal in other combinations, but even then I'm loath to pay 4 mana for interaction unless it comes with built-in card advantage of some sort (just the other day in another thread I mentioned that I never play Return to Dust or Crush Contraband these days). But in Orzhov, you have all the best removal spells in the history of magic at your disposal, covering a staggeringly wide variety of budget and synergy options. There's close to zero reason to grab this (outside of the Mardu Sunforger set-up I mentioned).

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

It's not even that there's a lot of *better* interaction, there's also a ton of more interesting low-power interaction than this.

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Post by JWK » 2 years ago

I run this in a couple of decks. I prefer instant effects to sorcery-speed ones, I prefer exile effects to destroy effects because against a lot of decks, sending things to an opponent's graveyard barely even counts as an inconvenience, and I prefer versatile removal to more narrow options unless the narrow ones are really cheap (Swords and Path, for example). Not thrilled about the mana cost, but I have found that Despark - great card though it is - doesn't hit a hefty percentage of the things that need removed.. and in some decks, I run this, Despark and Anguished Unmaking.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

It exiles any permanent that can normally be removed at instant speed, at instant speed. And if youwant lands, it'll cost ya.

But yeah, imagine exiling a critical card.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Orzhov has a lot of removal options, and Utter End is probably the most vanilla of them - four mana, instant speed, exiles anything except lands. You can tweak the variables a bit if there are attributes you're willing to sacrifice - Anguished Unmaking, Despark, and Vindicate are all pretty direct comparisons - but the baseline itself shows how good the removal suite is. I suppose Golgari also has good removal - Assassin's Trophy, Windgrace's Judgment, and Maelstrom Pulse are all pretty reasonable - but I definitely appreciate Orzhov's easy access to exile.

Anyway, the plethora of options means Utter End doesn't make the cut that often, but it's never going to be a totally dead card if you do run it. Orzhov isn't exactly a color combination known for its ramp, so efficiency is pretty important, and four mana is a lot.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021; Imperial Recruiter


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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

Imperial Recruiter is what is on my playmat. And I finally ordered a copy since it was reprinted in Modern Horizons 2. Apparently, all of my friends agree that getting it was the perfect choice since I have a similar personality to the Recruiter. Not sure if that is something to be proud of... but come, join the army. Win glory for yourself and country. Death? There is always a risk of death. But then again, many people die in their sleep. And we are strong. Our cause just. Our enemies weak and cowardly. And with your help we will only be stronger. So will you do the right thing and join?

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