[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Leonin Shikari

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Sunday, June 20th, 2021; Kami of the Crescent Moon



Speaking of commanders that don't care much about a sol ring........

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Pretty sure fast mana is something you'd want in a deck that makes everyone draw a bunch of cards.

This guy really ought to be the one with Phelddagrif's reputation for group hug. Playing against him was one of the reasons I ended up putting Nexus of Fate in my Phelldy deck, because otherwise it can be pretty hard to fight against this kind of effect with such a passive deck.

Anyway I'd rather build just about anything more than this turd. Symmetrical draw is stupid and I hate it. Fight me.
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
This guy really ought to be the one with Phelddagrif's reputation for group hug. Playing against him was one of the reasons I ended up putting Nexus of Fate in my Phelldy deck, because otherwise it can be pretty hard to fight against this kind of effect with such a passive deck.
It is sorta funny how Phelddagrif ended up with that reputation. I think a large part of that was just colors: Green and Blue provides players with a lot more "group hug" options than mono blue does. If you want to run stuff like Rites of Flourishing or Heartbeat of Spring, you need to be in green. And there wasn't another commander in Simic colors that fit the idea of group hug more than Phelldy. Which got him the reputation, which at this point is self perpetuating. Players who want to play group hug are more likely to play Phelddagrif, because he's got a reputation as a group hug commander.

Anyways, back to the Kami... I think he's got less of a reputation for group hug purely because of color identity. It's hard to go *pure* group hug in mono blue. You get a lot of ways to let people draw cards, but there's not really much of a way to accelerate the game beyond that, and most "policing" effects aren't in blue. And if you do slap down an Arcane Laboratory alongside Kami, people are going to probably assume you're trying to counter lock the game.

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Pheldagriff also lets you hug without being mindless, and is pretty self contained, so you can play a smarter hug deck that catches players back up while not just giving the combo player resources.

I don't see Kami as group hug, I see it as a draw a crapload of cards commander.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I hate group hug so much. Symmetric draw and ramp are crazy toxic to games.

It hides the truth of your deck and makes it so you can't draw any conclusions about your deck design..

I had a game a while back where there was a wheel deck that collective voyaged everyone and filled everyone's hands up. So I had 15 Mana on turn 8 and I killed them first and won easily. But what do I know about my deck if you let me draw 6 cards and ramp 5.
Last edited by pokken 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by umtiger » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
I don't see Kami as group hug, I see it as a draw a crapload of cards commander.
All the times I've seen blue Kami, this has also been the case and they always took advantage of the situation.

I've heard he's good with extra turns.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Kami isn't group hug. It is prison. Full stop.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Symmetric benefit effects all lump together as ghug for me, I do not particularly care how they try to break synergy :P

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

I'm gonna echo @pokken here: playing against group hug really damages your ability to spot flaws in your deck design when you've got resources coming out of your ears. When I first started playing edh, I played against an edric group hug deck pretty regularly and I remember thinking my Jor Kadeen deck of the time was damn near busted. Spoiler: it was, in fact, not even good outside of the context of that weird pod. Lesson learned.

I really like the kami's flavor though. He's just such a smug little bastard, in lore and in effect.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

Kami of the Crescent Moon is pretty high on my murder on sight commanders. I've found playing against it to be an incredibly toxic experience. The first game my opponent T5 Narset's Reversal on my Hour of Promise into Expropriate getting two turns. Untap Consecrated Sphinx + Psychosis Crawler. Snoooooooooooooooooore.

Next experience was playing against two Kami of the Crescent Moon. The first cast Forced Fruition and the second used it to draw his deck and win with Jace, Wielder of Mysteries.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Kami of the Crescent Moon is pretty high on my murder on sight commanders. I've found playing against it to be an incredibly toxic experience. The first game my opponent T5 Narset's Reversal on my Hour of Promise into Expropriate getting two turns. Untap Consecrated Sphinx + Psychosis Crawler. Snoooooooooooooooooore.

Next experience was playing against two Kami of the Crescent Moon. The first cast Forced Fruition and the second used it to draw his deck and win with Jace, Wielder of Mysteries.
So when I had my Glissa, the Traitor deck together I used to run Jester's Cap pretty regularly. I had several run ins with different Kami decks in which I removed Laboratory Maniac and they just scooped immediately.

Tbh I think it speaks more for mono blue win cons than this commander specifically; some people just aren't interested in thinking outside of the box.

I quite like Kami myself, but he is really only useful in quite a specific deck.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Kami of the Crescent Moon is fine. In a vacuum, Howling Mine effects are pretty fair. That said, I'll believe that Kami can be miserable to play against in the command zone, since there are a lot of obnoxious ways to break its symmetry, such as getting extra draw steps through extra turns or running draw-denying cards like Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils. In the 99, Kami seems a lot more fair as part of a group hug deck.

....speaking of group hug effects, I don't mind Howling Mine effects that much. Games tend to be more fun when everyone has something to do on their turns, and most people are running enough draw that an extra card each turn doesn't have a massive impact. It can be annoying if you're playing a more controlling deck, since it makes it much less likely for your opponents to run out of threats, but that's balanced out by the extra draw helping out decks that tend to run out of cards.

On the other hand, Mana Flare effects just turn the game into rocket tag - they make things go out of control waaaaay faster than an extra card or two. It's pretty rare for a game to last a full turn cycle after a mana doubler or Collective Voyage resolves.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Symmetric benefit effects all lump together as ghug for me, I do not particularly care how they try to break synergy :P
You mean break symmetry?

Group hug generally needs to have a goal. Like, if I cast Alliance of Arms, I usually will have Suture Priest and Blood Seeker. This guy, Party Jace, wheels, etc., I'm probably using Nekusar, the Mindrazer or The Locust God or Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.

The problem is, I prefer to play Stax, group hug's evil twin.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I'm on mobile a lot lately so my post editing is a damn crap show sorry heh

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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
It hides the truth of your deck and makes it so you can't draw any conclusions about your deck design..
This sentence only makes sense if you believe there is some sort of correct meta to test for. Otherwise, you're just annoyed that your decks are better against some opponents than others.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
It hides the truth of your deck and makes it so you can't draw any conclusions about your deck design..
This sentence only makes sense if you believe there is some sort of correct meta to test for. Otherwise, you're just annoyed that your decks are better against some opponents than others.
Well, I'd say that for me the key is that I only want to test my decks against decks actually trying to win the game.

Group hug players have a win rate against me of like 0.001% as in I have lost one game ever to a group hug deck. And that's being very broad about the definition, basically any deck that has a large theme of symmetrical benefits.

Not that they have not let someone else beat me but in all the games I've played I only remember a single hug deck winning game I which I participated

But they sure do frigging kingmake. I am not going to say any play style is objectively wrong but decks that just want to pick the winner or make chaos are just not my cuppa and I have no interest.

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Group Hug can very easily be stupid, but it can also be built to not kingmake and to have a strategy to win. You generally want to avoid ramping players at all, that's the thing that breaks games the most. Giving out tokens or life is almost trivial, and can be leveraged to your benefit. Giving out cards is a real benefit to your opponents, but is a symmetry that can easily be broken to where you benefit a lot more than they do, and you can manage threats with your own answers.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
Group Hug can very easily be stupid, but it can also be built to not kingmake and to have a strategy to win. You generally want to avoid ramping players at all, that's the thing that breaks games the most. Giving out tokens or life is almost trivial, and can be leveraged to your benefit. Giving out cards is a real benefit to your opponents, but is a symmetry that can easily be broken to where you benefit a lot more than they do, and you can manage threats with your own answers.
I agree mostly but not about cards being easy to break symmetry. People always think they and then they're wrong. Seen it countless times someone deploys a bowling mine and then tries to play a symmetry breaker.

Well I've been drawing cards and so has everyone else and they aren't going to let you do it.

I think draw based group hug decks thrive on a misconception about power level in the rare occasion they thrive. I have seen metas where there is a "powerful" howling mine deck and when I show up it sucks. Why?

Because people will delude themselves into thinking their deck isn't overpowered for a meta because it's group hug. People bring these decks with howling mines and 25 removal spells and 10 sweepers and a "natural" labman finish or whatever and be like oh I can play the with trash decks because it's a group hug!

They always look at me all side eyed when I start countering and removing their payoffs and I'm like you just wheeled me up six cards and I drew four in my upkeep. Of course I'm loaded for bear and no you can't has notion thief.

If you play against competent players playing decks of your power level you are not winning games letting them draw extra cards.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
This sentence only makes sense if you believe there is some sort of correct meta to test for. Otherwise, you're just annoyed that your decks are better against some opponents than others.
I think the difference is that hug decks (as well as pure chaos decks and maybe others) have a massively outsized impact on the game relative to their power level, and often in an atypical direction. Playing against most decks tells you a lot about how you'll compete against other decks, whereas playing against someone who immediately tutors and slams Grip of Chaos for example will probably not tell you much.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
whereas playing against someone who immediately tutors and slams Grip of Chaos for example will probably not tell you much.
It'll tell me to not play against that person with any consistency.

I don't mind Howling Mine effects in general, especially in slightly lower powerlevel games. Making sure that everyone has some amount of action and don't completely stall out even while it lowers your win % is a pretty reasonable tradeoff. That's getting everyone to draw 1, maybe 2 extra cards a turn. Past that and you're asking for an unreasonably hasted end of the game.

I've mostly seen Kami of the Crescent Moon bring about unreasonably hasted game ends. One of my Kami opponents was annoyed when I Planar Cleansing to destroy kami, two other howling mine effects and a billion mana rocks. "But I was just drawing everyone cards!" No, you were losing me the game.

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Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Well, I'd say that for me the key is that I only want to test my decks against decks actually trying to win the game.

Group hug players have a win rate against me of like 0.001% as in I have lost one game ever to a group hug deck. And that's being very broad about the definition, basically any deck that has a large theme of symmetrical benefits.

Not that they have not let someone else beat me but in all the games I've played I only remember a single hug deck winning game I which I participated

But they sure do frigging kingmake. I am not going to say any play style is objectively wrong but decks that just want to pick the winner or make chaos are just not my cuppa and I have no interest.
Alright, Captain "I've played more than 100,000 games against group hug", sounds like you're the person who wastes their removal on a Howling Mine on principle, and lets other players come through with threats, and then blames the Howling Mine. If you think symmetrical draw is kingmaking, you need to practice your politics.
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I think the difference is that hug decks (as well as pure chaos decks and maybe others) have a massively outsized impact on the game relative to their power level, and often in an atypical direction. Playing against most decks tells you a lot about how you'll compete against other decks, whereas playing against someone who immediately tutors and slams Grip of Chaos for example will probably not tell you much.
a) Comparing Kami to Grip of Chaos is a stretch.
b) Why would you want every game you play to be indicative of how your deck will perform against most decks? Do we not like gameplay variance now?
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
"But I was just drawing everyone cards!" No, you were losing me the game.
I'm not going to defend this person at all, that person is just as bad as the person who complains when you kill their Winter Orb that you're letting the other two players win. That being said, drawing everyone cards isn't losing you the game. You're still at parity, just a different parity. Much like Winter Orb leaves you at parity, and destroying it in some cases really is suicidal. There's no universal rule for whether or not killing the Howling Mine is correct, the context of the game always matters. The only good argument for leaning towards destroying symmetrical draw without context is that the person playing it did so for a reason, but if you're like Pokken and think the Kami player loses 99.999% of the time, that's not a very good reason.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago

Alright, Captain "I've played more than 100,000 games against group hug", sounds like you're the person who wastes their removal on a Howling Mine on principle, and lets other players come through with threats, and then blames the Howling Mine. If you think symmetrical draw is kingmaking, you need to practice your politics.
...
, but if you're like Pokken and think the Kami player loses 99.999% of the time, that's not a very good reason.
No, I think that symmetrical draw decks ultimately become about kingmaking. They rarely are able to win the game themselves because they don't have the same density of threats as other decks so they wind up determining the winner by how they spend their removal.

I almost never remove howling mines (I'll happily sweep them when it's right ofc) - they are raising my win rate. I assume you missed multiple references to the payoffs for mines.

And again since you didn't catch it somehow I'll reiterate I think that group hug decks win a decent number of games against underpowered opponents. But that's because the playstyle convinces people it's okay to punch down.

edit:
Another point I will make is that, the reason I usually kill the group hug player first is that those decks are almost invariably designed to play 1v1 with the last player standing. So I don't want to play 1v1 with them.

I won't usually bother destroying the mines, just kill their enablers and then both pressure them and exert political pressure so people know what they're trying to achieve (which is getting the other players to eliminate each other).

If my deck has a combo finish it's much easier of course, but also way more unfair since it's so easy for me to find the combo *and* mines often provide a free discard outlet which makes a lot of combos more efficient.
Last edited by pokken 2 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
a) Comparing Kami to Grip of Chaos is a stretch.
b) Why would you want every game you play to be indicative of how your deck will perform against most decks? Do we not like gameplay variance now?
a) When making a point, it's often useful to take a more extreme example to illustrate the trend that also applies to subtler effects.

b) Too little variance = chess. Too much variance = calvinball. There's a happy medium somewhere in there. Imo playing against hug and chaos decks is a bit much for my taste. Also planechase. %$#% planechase.

I sat down to play a game of magic because I like magic. Unfortunately magic has within its rules the ability to utterly convolute itself - have you seen the deck that turns magic into a game of UNO? At a certain point, even within the technical rules of magic, it's not really the experience I'm looking for.

That's not to say group hug is wholly outside those bounds. I'll still play. I just find it annoying.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
"But I was just drawing everyone cards!" No, you were losing me the game.
...
That being said, drawing everyone cards isn't losing you the game. You're still at parity, just a different parity. Much like Winter Orb leaves you at parity, and destroying it in some cases really is suicidal. There's no universal rule for whether or not killing the Howling Mine is correct, the context of the game always matters. The only good argument for leaning towards destroying symmetrical draw without context is that the person playing it did so for a reason, but if you're like Pokken and think the Kami player loses 99.999% of the time, that's not a very good reason
The problem is symmetric card draw affects different decks very differently. I was playing my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck. The point of that deck is to ramp to the point where I hit a critical amount of lands that allow me to cast Gishath, Sun's Avatar every turn for the rest of the game. It'll eat removal the first 2-3 times but eventually my opponents will just run out of answers and then will drown in dinosaurs. As a result Howling Mine doesn't help the deck because it is pretty gated by mana not by cards. My opponents drawing multiple cards per turn makes it basically impossible to actually stick Gishath, Sun's Avatar because no one is ever going to run out of removal. So that basically never wants to play against Howling Mine ever.

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Monday, June 21st, 2021; Lifecrafter's Bestiary


Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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