[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Samwise the Stouthearted

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Maybe it's cause I still play my Thawing Glaciers that these still hold value. Or too many zoomer players getting spoiled by power creep that they don't know how to appreciate the grind, I guess.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

I'm still upset we didn't get this cycle finished in Ikoria: LAIR of beasts. They are mediocre at best but the white ones often tend to be better given they can help proc land tax if fixing is a major issue but still not great.
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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe it's cause I still play my Thawing Glaciers that these still hold value. Or too many zoomer players getting spoiled by power creep that they don't know how to appreciate the grind, I guess.
I mean, I was playing when they came out and they were still quite bad then too.

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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe it's cause I still play my Thawing Glaciers that these still hold value. Or too many zoomer players getting spoiled by power creep that they don't know how to appreciate the grind, I guess.
I'm surprised you like these so much. The set you back an entire land drop just to fix your mana. Effectively, instead of coming into play ETB tapped and setting you back a mana the turn they come down these set you back mana every following turn. So functionally they're the equivalent of making every other land you play after them ETB tapped. Pretty sure these are weaker than Rupture Spire and friends unless your meta is blazingly fast. If that's the case the lairs won't cut it anyway.

You gotta be going deep with land bounce synergies before these are worth it.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 2 years ago

Most of the time these are bad. If you're playing a lot of Exploration-type effects, they become acceptable.

The problem is basically, unlike Karoo lands or Soldevi Excavations and friends, these bounce a land and only generate one mana.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe it's cause I still play my Thawing Glaciers that these still hold value. Or too many zoomer players getting spoiled by power creep that they don't know how to appreciate the grind, I guess.
The thing is, Thawing Glaciers can trigger landfall twice per turn as can Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse and the Mirage Fetchs like Bad River - these cards are slow and only overall land-neutral but the ability to double your triggers can make them worthwhile especially for very durdly or, in the case of the commons and mirage fetches, very budget decks. This is always leaving you a mana behind. Like everyone else is saying, the Lairs are an order of magnitude worse than Glaciers and the above, and even worse than Rupture Spire and friends (which are themselves lands one only runs if they are on some sort of hyper-budget 5C plan). If you like picking up lands to reuse a Mystic Sanctuary trigger or whatever, there's also the generally superiorDimir Aqueduct lands that don't put you behind on mana unless they get nuked.

I do agree it'd be nice to see the Wedge counterparts though - as I was looking for Commanders the Lairs might do well in it struck me that I'd be at least marginally intrigued in playing them in aggressive W/x/y decks like Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Maybe it's because I keep a low curve. Like, especially in Alesha where I didn't have a mana value over five, and playing that for years accommodated me to value the ability to fix my colours without tempo loss. Because I can play all game on five, I can bounce a tapped land, play this and use it for mana, and then keep making my land drops and not really lose anything. I can't do that with a karoo, not when I'm gonna get wastelanded for it where as on the lair, you're just hitting a single mv land.

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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

What ETB lands would anyone want to use (and re-use) in EDH? Are there any? (Besides Bojuka Bog.)
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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Bad, but surprisingly playable in decks that want to bounce their own lands, but really only because there are a limited number of lands that actually do that so you need to dip into these when you run out of Ravnica Karoos. I run the Rith one in Naya landfall, just to reliably get triggers.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I used to like these a lot as a kid. My logic was "if I play it as my last land, I negate the downside and get a tri-land for free!"

The obvious flaw, of course, is that if you draw a land you could be setting yourself back on lands for an extended period of time. While that's true, it never quite felt like sufficient justification for how unpopular these are.

The less obvious, but I think maybe more important, flaw is that a fixing land that must be played last is a terrible fixing land. The fewer lands you have, the more likely you are to need fixing. If you really need a certain color but a lair is your only source, it's tough luck until you either run out of land drops or bite the bullet and time walk yourself. Plains plains arcane sanctum is usually a fine hand. Plains plains Dromar's Cavern is really bad if you have blue or black cards to play on 1, 2, or even 3.

Anyway would consider for landfall decks but as a generic fixing land, they're awful.
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe it's because I keep a low curve. Like, especially in Alesha where I didn't have a mana value over five, and playing that for years accommodated me to value the ability to fix my colours without tempo loss. Because I can play all game on five, I can bounce a tapped land, play this and use it for mana, and then keep making my land drops and not really lose anything. I can't do that with a karoo, not when I'm gonna get wastelanded for it where as on the lair, you're just hitting a single mv land.
It's usually incorrect to wasteland a Karoo in multiplayer.

Besides the 1 mana the turn you play it, you lose just as much when a lair gets wastelanded, it just feels less bad because the lair is crap whereas Karoo lands are pretty decent.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

Serenade wrote:
2 years ago
What ETB lands would anyone want to use (and re-use) in EDH? Are there any? (Besides Bojuka Bog.)
Mystic Sanctuary is a big one. There's also the whole cycle of MDFCs from Zendikar Rising (most played amongst them being Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary, Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge, Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire, Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn, Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt and Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore all at 18,000+ Decks on EDHRecs).

Technically, tons of other lands have EtB Triggers - there's the Temples (Temple of Enlightenment et al), or even worse the gainlands (Tranquil Cove et al) and adjacent lands like Zhalfirin Void and Radiant Fountain. You could pick up cycling lands (Secluded Steppe or Irrigated Farmland) and cycle them. Bojuka Bog and Mystic Sanctuary are part of a cycle - most of the lands in those cycles are pretty fringe or limited chaff but Halimar Depths and Witch's Cottage see a non-trivial amount of play. Or you could use this to "reload" a Vivid land.

But in practice, having played a ton of Ravnica bouncelands, bouncing all those EtB tapped incremental value lands and then replaying them is so disastrously low-tempo as to be totally not worthwhile

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe it's because I keep a low curve. Like, especially in Alesha where I didn't have a mana value over five, and playing that for years accommodated me to value the ability to fix my colours without tempo loss. Because I can play all game on five, I can bounce a tapped land, play this and use it for mana, and then keep making my land drops and not really lose anything. I can't do that with a karoo, not when I'm gonna get wastelanded for it where as on the lair, you're just hitting a single mv land.
It's usually incorrect to wasteland a Karoo in multiplayer.

Besides the 1 mana the turn you play it, you lose just as much when a lair gets wastelanded, it just feels less bad because the lair is crap whereas Karoo lands are pretty decent.
Man, we used to strip and waste each other's karoos all day long back in the day, to the point that some of your best threats are a Reassembling Skeleton with a Mask of Memory/Mask of Riddles just to draw out from under the strips and present a manner of clocking opponents.

Inb4 this environment sounds toxic AF.

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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

AH, I had forgotten the MDFCs. Good call. Yeah, I wish there was synergy for lairs, but I mostly think these are quite outclassed now.
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Man, we used to strip and waste each other's karoos all day long back in the day, to the point that some of your best threats are a Reassembling Skeleton with a Mask of Memory/Mask of Riddles just to draw out from under the strips and present a manner of clocking opponents.

Inb4 this environment sounds toxic AF.
I don't think toxic is the word I'd use - it's not that wastelanding a karoo is mean, or even politically bad. It's just that, the majority of the time, it's straight-up incorrect. You'll hurt the karoo player's winrate, sure, but you'll hurt yours too unless the karoo player is the clear threat. It's the other two players who are the clear winners in that exchange.

1v1 it's a fine play, of course. 3p I guess it's 50/50 although usually I'd think there are more important lands to kill.

Of course you could use it as a political ploy - "do this thing I want, or I'll wasteland your karoo" - but in my experience that backfires as often as it works.

So yeah, not toxic, more confusing? It would be like if someone said "I don't think Viscera Seer is good because he always gets killed, that's why I play Nantuko Husk." I guess if people in your group have a weird bugaboo then any card preference can be justified, but assuming rational actors your karoos should generally be pretty safe, and lairs are generally pretty crap.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

There are a lot of reasons to run bouncelands: landfall triggers, Song of the Dryads / Imprisoned in the Moon, Tolaria West, cycling lands, MDFCs, Land Tax effects... and if we're talking about Karoos, untap effects like Frantic Search too. That said, I don't see myself ever running Lairs - going down a land is a pretty steep tempo hit. I suppose there is some argument to playing them if they're already your last land - if you were going to miss your next land drop, then they don't actually have a tempo cost. However, if that is the case, then you're missing out on the primary benefit to running them in the first place - namely, that they offer an untapped triland for fixing purposes.

....so yeah, I would usually stick to a karoo or a triland / triome. Given that lairs require three colors, you'll already have access to at least three Ravnica bouncelands, and I would generally avoid running more than that - they can be pretty awkward in multiples. If you really value extra landfall triggers and are already running all the karoos, consider Oboro, Palace in the Clouds or Ghost Town.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Man, we used to strip and waste each other's karoos all day long back in the day, to the point that some of your best threats are a Reassembling Skeleton with a Mask of Memory/Mask of Riddles just to draw out from under the strips and present a manner of clocking opponents.

Inb4 this environment sounds toxic AF.
I don't think toxic is the word I'd use - it's not that wastelanding a karoo is mean, or even politically bad. It's just that, the majority of the time, it's straight-up incorrect. You'll hurt the karoo player's winrate, sure, but you'll hurt yours too unless the karoo player is the clear threat. It's the other two players who are the clear winners in that exchange.

1v1 it's a fine play, of course. 3p I guess it's 50/50 although usually I'd think there are more important lands to kill.

Of course you could use it as a political ploy - "do this thing I want, or I'll wasteland your karoo" - but in my experience that backfires as often as it works.

So yeah, not toxic, more confusing? It would be like if someone said "I don't think Viscera Seer is good because he always gets killed, that's why I play Nantuko Husk." I guess if people in your group have a weird bugaboo then any card preference can be justified, but assuming rational actors your karoos should generally be pretty safe, and lairs are generally pretty crap.
Nah, we were just savage towards each other with lots of point removal and generally stopping the other from getting too far ahead. That's why the skelie line of play, along with the bloodghasts and similar actors, became prominent. Multiples of us often playing stax, or different colours/flavours of stax so recursive threats just became our go to finishers.

Man I wish I was still playing there when monarch came out.......that'd be a blast.

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Wednesday, January 26th, 2022; The Lair Lands
Absolute rubbish, pass. Just play ravnica karoos, if you must.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Nah, we were just savage towards each other with lots of point removal and generally stopping the other from getting too far ahead. That's why the skelie line of play, along with the bloodghasts and similar actors, became prominent. Multiples of us often playing stax, or different colours/flavours of stax so recursive threats just became our go to finishers.

Man I wish I was still playing there when monarch came out.......that'd be a blast.
Spot removal for actual threats is fair enough (although you'd think it'd become less popular and balance out if everyone was running threats that targeted removal wasn't effective against? Or at least start running artifact removal to kill equipment? If the meta is becoming so inbred) but throwing away your own land to kill a single, low-impact enemy land isn't "savage"...it's just a bad play. If you're playing no-holds-barred and want to prevent anyone from getting too much mana, that's what MLD is for, not trading 1:1.

I do think the karoos are underrated. Depends a lot on the speed of your games and meta, but in general they do a lot of sorts of things a winning player wants to do: Don't attract a lot of attention, reliably hit land drops to build to an endgame plan, and quietly generate card advantage. Not something that works when the game is over on turn 5, but not remotely bad.
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Post by Igzex » 2 years ago

Unless I got a lands engine going and I want to lock down the table, I can't say I'd strip a bounce land myself. I'm going -1 for what, to temporarily stun someone's color fixing and then someone else drops a Cavern of Souls or a Field of the Dead while I just groan "Oh for the love of-" to myself?

As far as these cards go, they're not great but not horrible choices for a starting budget. I'm honestly surprised to have never seen these included in precons so they could at least have a printing with the correct template. I'm gonna guess it's for complexity reasons somehow?

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Thursday, January 27th, 2022; Sisay, Weatherlight Captain


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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Nah, we were just savage towards each other with lots of point removal and generally stopping the other from getting too far ahead. That's why the skelie line of play, along with the bloodghasts and similar actors, became prominent. Multiples of us often playing stax, or different colours/flavours of stax so recursive threats just became our go to finishers.

Man I wish I was still playing there when monarch came out.......that'd be a blast.
Spot removal for actual threats is fair enough (although you'd think it'd become less popular and balance out if everyone was running threats that targeted removal wasn't effective against? Or at least start running artifact removal to kill equipment? If the meta is becoming so inbred) but throwing away your own land to kill a single, low-impact enemy land isn't "savage"...it's just a bad play. If you're playing no-holds-barred and want to prevent anyone from getting too much mana, that's what MLD is for, not trading 1:1.
Idk, it was like the prevalence of removal would keep us from going large, even as we morphed into what we were doing, it was bass ackwards to go against the grain and play heavier mana value threats while there was so much removal. Had we still been together though, Vandalblast would have been a game changer and Sword of Sinew and Steel would have been obscene. I miss that place, wish I never left Phoenix. That was ten years ago, wow it's really been that long.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Thursday, January 27th, 2022; Sisay, Weatherlight Captain

Kill on sight. It's Lin Sivvi, but 5 color and insufferable. If you want to run this, run Lin Sivvi and don't have everyone hate you.

Melua
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Post by Melua » 2 years ago

I'm surprised they managed to keep Sisay obnoxious in both of her printings

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

It's all nostalgia, but I generally prefer Captain Sisay. The OG Captain's color identity forces a little bit of creativity whereas Modern Sisay's 5C Identity makes it easy to just spam goodstuff. Old Sisay sends stuff to hand, which feels more "fair" and works with any cast triggers (mostly on Eldrazi but still). To make up for that, her ability is free making it easier to justify running silver bullets like Major Teroh or Arashi, the Sky Asunder which is my sort of deep-dive jam. Also makes it easier alongside untapper effects to activate OG Sisay multiple times, while it is tough to activate the new Sisay more than once per round. New Sisay is obviously stronger, but I don't know if that necessarily makes her better.

wildfire393
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Post by wildfire393 » 2 years ago

Sisay is one of those cards that seems like she could be interesting until you sit down to actually play her and then she's just the same boring %$#% every game because that's how tutor commanders work.

I've mused on making Sisay Shrines (too obvious), some kind of 0-card OTK combo with Mana-moose (too Spike), and the most interesting but still probably boring of Humans tribal because there's a ton of legendary Human lords out there.

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