[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Archfiend of Depravity

[TheAmericanSpirit]

The five drop only saves you from damage. Exquisite Archangel can technically save you from alternate loss conditions, but not for long unless your issue is taking too much damage.

I.e. trite angel trash is just that, just play platinum angel and get the full effect.

[Mookie]

Depends a bit on the exact meta, but I'm not particularly impressed by Exquisite Archangel. As a seven mana creature, I generally expect it to have some amount of board impact, and a 5/5 flyer isn't particularly impressive. So, I'm going to have to evaluate it based on the 'if you would lose the game' clause... which, while certainly splashy, also has a lot of holes in it.

The most obvious hole is if you're losing the game for a reason other than your life total being reduced to zero - for example, if you've been dealt 21 points of commander damage, or 10 points of infect. These are state-based actions, and resetting your life total won't really fix the problem. Similarly, if you've been milled out, this will save you exactly once, at which point in time you'll need another plan. I'd also say that this is fairly weak against combo - a lot of infinite combos can bypass this by just making you lose a second time.

That said, this is a get-out-of-jail-free card, which isn't something to totally disregard. Best-case scenario, you live through what would be a lethal Craterhoof Behemoth or Exsanguinate and gain 40 life, at which point your opponent needs to find yet another way to kill you. This also buys a turn against any combo that needs to use the combat step, or an alternative win condition like Felidar Sovereign. This becomes even better if you have some way to clone Exquisite Archangel repeatedly.

Still though... I think I'd favor Platinum Angel if I wanted to save myself - it doesn't reset your life total, which means you can suddenly lose if it gets removed, but it also prevents loss from a wider set of problems. Alternatively, if I specifically cared about life loss, I'd consider Platinum Emperion. Not sure if I'd run Angel of Grace though - its loss prevention is even narrower, since it only prevents damage (not life loss) and still leaves you at 1 life. May be worth consideration if you care about the body though - 5/4 flash flyer for 5 mana is pretty solid.

[tstorm823]

Sunday, June 28th, 2020; Exquisite Archangel

Hmm. So is this actually good over, say, the five drop Angel's Grace version? What was it, Angel of Grace?

The lack of surprise factor, the replacement of any lose the game scenario, and the mana cost make this much more comparable to Platinum Angel than Angel of Grace. The returning to starting life is the unique part compared to other effects that prevent you from losing. I could imagine playing it in a BW(x) deck with lots of effects that pay life. Necrologia, draw your life total, reset to 40, people can't even respond effectively as the life payment is a cost and the life gain is a replacement, you're back to 40 before priority passes.

[darrenhabib]

I tried Exquisite Archangel in a deck that looked to abuse Necropotence, but it never worked out.

[3drinks]

...How does this interact with the Thassa's Oracle decks? Does this just break them and give you the win instead (they're now on a deck with 0 cards in it)?

[Mookie]

...How does this interact with the Thassa's Oracle decks? Does this just break them and give you the win instead (they're now on a deck with 0 cards in it)?

Oracle trigger goes on the stack and resolves. Assuming that its controller has enough devotion / few enough cards in library, they will attempt to win. Exquisite Archangel replaces that effect with its controller's life total being reset (and the Archangel being exiled). The game then continues, with the Oracle player having not won, and presumably with a mostly-empty library.

Note that if they're running Laboratory Maniac, they won't lose the game for drawing from an empty library either, and they can also just draw another card to attempt to win again.

[3drinks]

...How does this interact with the Thassa's Oracle decks? Does this just break them and give you the win instead (they're now on a deck with 0 cards in it)?

Oracle trigger goes on the stack and resolves. Assuming that its controller has enough devotion / few enough cards in library, they will attempt to win. Exquisite Archangel replaces that effect with its controller's life total being reset (and the Archangel being exiled). The game then continues, with the Oracle player having not won, and presumably with a mostly-empty library.

Note that if they're running Laboratory Maniac, they won't lose the game for drawing from an empty library either, and they can also just draw another card to attempt to win again.

Right, obv it doesn't stop Lab Man. But thanks for confirmation on the anti-Oracle tech. Imagine the hilarious blowout to their Oracle-Consult play when you sneak in Exquisite Archangel 👀🤔

[3drinks]

......it doesn't work, actually. Win the game effects just aren't altered by today's card.

[Myllior]

......it doesn't work, actually. Win the game effects just aren't altered by today's card.

Correct. Remembering Magic is very literal with its terminology (e.g. draw and target), you "winning" the game and your opponent(s) "losing" the game are two separate concepts when it comes to how cards interact with them. This is why Platinum Angel|MRD explicitly refers to you being unable to lose and your opponents being unable to win.

(I'm sure someone could do a much better, technical explanation of why it works this way, but that's my layman's understanding of it).

[Mookie]

Mmmm, interesting. Well, that's what I get for not checking the rulings. Another knock against the Archangel, I suppose.
....not that I see people win with alternate win conditions that often, but still....

[Sinis]

Sunday, June 28th, 2020; Exquisite Archangel

It's pretty terrible, but, since it sets your life total, there could be a good lifegain trigger in there for the purposes of Sanguine Bond or Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose.

[3drinks]

Monday, June 29th, 2020; Djinn Illuminatus

What a delightful joy of mine it's always been to spend seven on a 3/7 flyer that....rewards me by asking I pay extra for more spell effects?

This can't be the best version of this effect, right?

[Mookie]

Djinn Illuminatus is a sweet card, but you really need to have a very high threshold of cheap spells. Copying Lightning Bolt or Opt a few times is feasible, copying Cruel Ultimatum.... isn't. And of course, copying Pact of the Titan is the best possible scenario.

The obvious comparison here is probably Swarm Intelligence, which is my favored copying effect (although Double Vision may outclass it now). In terms of pure value, the Djinn is better for copying cheaper spells. However, even if you're copying a one mana spell, it can still be difficult to copy it that many times due to its pure color weighting - depending on what mana you have available in your 2+ color deck, you may not have enough colored mana to copy the spell more than once or twice, in which case you aren't getting more value than Swarm Intelligence. On the other hand, Swarm Intelligence is way better if you're copying an expensive spell, since you don't need to pay the extra mana.

As for the body.... a 3/5 flyer is fine, but not exciting. I suppose you could do some reanimation stuff with it, but I also feel like much better reanimation targets exist.

All that said, while other copy effects certainly exist, I can't think of many that let you copy a spell as many times as you want - Soulfire Grand Master is the closest I can think of.

[folding_music]

if you put together some sort of temur deck with polymorph and oath effects all aiming at putting the Djinn Illuminatus in play and then protecting it, I think that'd be really sexy. as a random overcosted creature thrown into a Niv deck or whatever you'll probably never really feel happy paying mana for its ability. Izzet Guildmage does a lot of what this card does without costing seven!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

OG izzet garbage. A relic of a time when creatures were vastly worse than they are today.

[Dunharrow]

I think this was a great design that they nerfed for fear of it running out of control. If this was cheaper it would be played a ton. But they nerfed too much. I think this needed to be a 5-mana creature. It would be playable but cost a lot of mana to abuse, which is what you want.

[umtiger]

OG izzet garbage. A relic of a time when creatures were vastly worse than they are today.

I think this was a great design that they nerfed for fear of it running out of control. If this was cheaper it would be played a ton. But they nerfed too much. I think this needed to be a 5-mana creature. It would be playable but cost a lot of mana to abuse, which is what you want.

It's kind of messed up when fun/cool cards are called garbage just because they aren't broken.

If anyone ever wanted to play Ravnica only EDH (and there's like 3 whole blocks to build from), Djinn Illuminatus would be the first card I want to build around.

[ZenN]

It's kind of messed up when fun/cool cards are called garbage just because they aren't broken.

I agree with that sentiment, but that's not what's happening here. This card is being called garbage because it's unplayable. At that mana cost and stats, it would only be playable if it gave you free copies of things, or if you built some super janky combo around it.

Even at 5 mana it would only be fringe playable. It would be fine, but not great. You need to be playing a high density of super cheap spells for this to be at all useful, because copying any expensive/high impact spells is just not feasible, and that sort of deck just isn't likely to be playing high cost, do-nothing creatures in the hopes that they'll stick around long enough to be relevant.

As a 3 or 4 mana 2/2 it would definitely see play. At that cost you might actually reliably get a chance to use it with a spell or two before it dies.

[tempoEDH]

This card is odd. On the one hand, I've never seen anyone play it before, and I understand why. It's a bit of a niche spell. On the other hand, it's one of the most threatening powerhouses in my Kalamax EDH. Kill on sight threat. Deck is built with no infinites, so the typical line of play ends up being ramping and digging for Djinn, then casting a Turnabout or something similar 4-5 times off replicate, then casting a Ligtning Bolt for however much damage. It puts in the most work out of any card (besides maybe Opt), but I'm reasonably sure I'm also the only person who plays it.

[Hawk]

As noted, in general it is worse than Swarm Intelligence and Double Vision. It's a lot closer to Cloven Casting, Thousand-Year Storm or even Mirari imo, as an effect that is expensive to do nothing and then requires extra mana or cards to dupe your spells. All of these effects are better than Cast Through Time although idk how much better they are than it.

On its face, it's hard to say if Illuminatus is better, worse, or way worse than Storm, Casting, or Mirari. Illuminatus shines brightest over the competition if you are durdling around with smaller, cantrip-y effects - this can allow you to get a ton of extra value off of Ponder, Preordain, Opt, and a little more value off of Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor or Faithless Looting or Mission Briefing. It's also spicy with Lightning Bolt and Reality Shift and Rapid Hybridization assuming those form the backbone of your removal suite. Basically any non-counterspell of CMC 2 or less is at least interesting, if not necessarily good, with Illuminatus.

All of that has to be weighed against the fact that this thing is way more fragile, way less likely to trigger the turn you cast it as you need even more mana, and can be awkward on your mana base. It's also bad with the big flashy X-spells that a Spellslinger deck often wants to finish with (Epic Experiment, Electrodominance, etc). And because digging with it can chew up so much mana, it isn't awesome if the plan is to actually storm off - since you have to pay all the replicate up front, you are likely better served by using Intelligence/Vision/Storm/Casting to duplicate your Turnabouts and Seething Songs and High Tides and Frantic Searches and what not. I think overall, I'd take Thousand-Year Storm (and of course, Double Vision and Swarm Intelligence) in most decks first before looking to Illuminatus. FWIW I don't currently run Illuminatus in my Sevinne, the Chronoclasm copy-spell-flashbacky deck - I don't run Swarm or Thousand-year either, but would likely play Double Vision as soon as I acquire it.

[umtiger]

I agree with that sentiment, but that's not what's happening here. This card is being called garbage because it's unplayable. At that mana cost and stats, it would only be playable if it gave you free copies of things, or if you built some super janky combo around it.

Even at 5 mana it would only be fringe playable. It would be fine, but not great. You need to be playing a high density of super cheap spells for this to be at all useful, because copying any expensive/high impact spells is just not feasible, and that sort of deck just isn't likely to be playing high cost, do-nothing creatures in the hopes that they'll stick around long enough to be relevant.

As a 3 or 4 mana 2/2 it would definitely see play. At that cost you might actually reliably get a chance to use it with a spell or two before it dies.

How is a card "unplayable"? EDH is essentially the only format where this card IS playable. This isn't a set metagame where players are competing for Top 8. There are "better" cards with similar effects but there are also reasons to play a card beyond winning a game.

And simply lowering the cmc of a creature with an awesome static ability and using the justification of low P/T is poor design. Sure, Rampaging Baloth would be better as a 2GG 4/4.

I simply won't stand for this. Djinn Illuminatus has cool flavor, art, and unique ability. I will resolve him and win the game [albeit later and with a different card probably]. You all will see.

[ZenN]

And simply lowering the cmc of a creature with an awesome static ability and using the justification of low P/T is poor design. Sure, Rampaging Baloth would be better as a 2GG 4/4.

It's not about just lowering the CMC in exchange for lowered P/T. The ability is one that requires a heavy mana investment to be remotely useful, so in order to be a halfway decent card it needs a lower cost itself to make up for that. Look at something like Soulfire Grand Master. Sweet card, but the ability to reuse spells demands a high mana investment. You stick that on a low cost creature and it becomes viable. If Soulfire were a 7 CMC 5/5 or something silly like that it would be a terrible card. And of course, when you lower the CMC by that much, the P/T has to go with it, because a 3/5 flyer for 3 or 4 that also has that ability would be much stronger.

And the card truly is unplayable, even among the super casual. Take a look at something like EDHRec. The card appears in a whopping 577 decks, or as it lists there, 1% of 93182 decks (which they're rounding up, from 0.6%). And we're talking about a collection of deck lists that are largely very, very casual. When even the casual players don't want to play this card, you know it's pretty bad.

If trying to make this card work is something that gives you enjoyment, then by all means, absolutely go play it. At the end of the day this is a game, and the whole point (particularly in a casual format like this) is to have fun. But don't pretend the card is good. That's just disingenuous at best, or downright trolling at worst.

[onering]

Its pretty mediocre. When its doing something well, its pumping a bunch of mana into one very cheap spell to replicate it a bunch, or letting you replicate a somewhat cheap spell a few times. Turning 1 lightning bolt into 7 lightning bolts is hilarious. 7 brainstorms, especially with effects that trigger on draws, is hilarious. Its a reasonable top ender for spell slinger decks that rely on very cheap spells, but its payoff is in stories rather than efficiency. Basically, its not very good but super fun, and when put into the right deck can be good enough to make it worth chasing the super fun.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I wanna like it, but it's one of the first creatures I pulled out of the Temur precon this year. It requires a really high level of resource to be advantageous, and that's just not efficient when set against some of the excellent spell doubling options available in our current age of relative EDH opulence.

Its contemporary in the precon, Wort, the Raidmother, is by comparison still a really strong card. A little conditional but with reasonable support gives you easy access to a pretty powerful spell copy engine. This one though; it just needs too much to shine.

[umtiger]

It's not about just lowering the CMC in exchange for lowered P/T. The ability is one that requires a heavy mana investment to be remotely useful, so in order to be a halfway decent card it needs a lower cost itself to make up for that. Look at something like Soulfire Grand Master. Sweet card, but the ability to reuse spells demands a high mana investment. You stick that on a low cost creature and it becomes viable. If Soulfire were a 7 CMC 5/5 or something silly like that it would be a terrible card. And of course, when you lower the CMC by that much, the P/T has to go with it, because a 3/5 flyer for 3 or 4 that also has that ability would be much stronger.

And the card truly is unplayable, even among the super casual. Take a look at something like EDHRec. The card appears in a whopping 577 decks, or as it lists there, 1% of 93182 decks (which they're rounding up, from 0.6%). And we're talking about a collection of deck lists that are largely very, very casual. When even the casual players don't want to play this card, you know it's pretty bad.

If trying to make this card work is something that gives you enjoyment, then by all means, absolutely go play it. At the end of the day this is a game, and the whole point (particularly in a casual format like this) is to have fun. But don't pretend the card is good. That's just disingenuous at best, or downright trolling at worst.

EDH and deck building isn't just about labeling a card good or bad. Which is what you're trying to do.

Quoting EDHREC... fewer people use this card than Sol Ring, okay... but it's not unplayable. I don't think it's fair to call the card garbage.

I'm not trolling. And I haven't been disingenuous. Re-read all of my posts. In your haste to say the card is bad, you put words in my post that I never did myself. I didn't pretend the card is "good." I stated my feelings about the flavor, art, and the ability of the creature. And then I even joked that it's not going to win me a game even after I resolve it.

About your point on Soulfire, wouldn't be even better as a 1 cmc, 0/1? You can do that all day and with just about every card. It's a pointless exercise. Yes, we all should know by now that P/T isn't the where the value is for creatures in EDH.