[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Xander's Pact

Sharpened
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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

Reposting the list for linked images.
Not going to say I agree with all these choices, but the point is there.
There's definitely something to be said for soft counters that can hit everything vs hard counters that are very restrictive in what they target.

(Also, I know you specifically looked at Counters, but listing Extinguish and not Envelop as well as Flash Counter and not Dispel is funny to me)

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

yeah, but what if you need a 27th two mana soft-counter? giggle
i've played a lot of Prohibits cos I played a lot during Invasion and I've kept them around cos I feel good at playing Prohibit, as stupid as that sounds. mostly it's reluctance to grab a superior card I've read about to replace ones I have fond memories of. I know Delay's better, blah blah blah

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

You have to put counts before each to make them cards instead of categories in a deck tag.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

The idea of a remove soul being better than prohibit is laughable to me. Flashfreeze and Flash Counter too? C'mon. Might as well be saying Blue Elemental Blast is better because it can counter one fifth of the colour pie.

Arcane Denial is totally superior though, and I can't imagine one argument where anyone could suggest otherwise, but man, the rest of that list is so much more specialized than what Prohibit brings to the table. Creature, instant, sorcery, planeswalker even, and more, all for 1U - 3U...and you want to justify a remove soul is stronger.

I can't wrap my head around that. Are you playing in games where everyone's curve starts at four? It's totally OK to counter those rampant growths and kodama's reaches, guys. And it's totally acceptable to counter that early lightning bolt to protect that birds of paradise. It really is.

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Post by MRHblue » 4 years ago

Everyone has creatures, and many get played as a focal point of the deck. I would absolutely play Remove Soul before Prohibit.

But I would have to be VERY desperate for a counter to consider either.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 years ago

This isn't a hard counter. A hard counter is unconditional, has no rhystic, and sends the target to the graveyard or exile (and not temporary exile like Delay). This is conditional, depending on CMC.

I like how this is better against competitive decks. The kicker is best thought of as an option, albeit a bad one since Dismiss exists. (Of course, Counterspell and Mana Drain, exist, not to mention Mana Leak.)

That said, it seems a little lame by today's standards? You have two hard counters for uu (three in an artifact-heavy deck), you have a bunch of rhystic counters if you're playing Stax. You have quite a few free counters like Force of Will, Thwart, and Foil. You have counters like Rewind that offer a rebate (again for Winter Orb and friends).

I would play it before Mental Misstep or Nix, though. And for the record, Flashfreeze isn't even on my list.
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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote: And it's totally acceptable to counter that early lightning bolt to protect that birds of paradise. It really is.
Expecting to have 2 mana untapped when my bird gets bolted seems presumptuous. Unless I'm sitting around with mana to spare, in which case, why do I care if my bird gets bolted?

This card is either tempo negative or tempo equal (You pay 2, they pay 1 or 2; You pay 4, they pay 4 or less), there's no advantage to be gained. And for it to be useful at disrupting my opponents early game ramp (which I'm not sure it would be worth running), I would have to go first. If my opponent is ahead of me, this card is too slow for even that marginal utility.

The card just isn't good. There are tons of 4 mana or less spells that I am happy to counter, but I won't run out of options to do so for less than 4 mana. There are even bunches of 2 or less spells that I want to counter, but I can do so with other options that are more versatile.

If my focus is disrupting my opponents ramp, Envelop lets me snag that Rampant Growth even if my opponent goes first, and is still useful later to stop something like Tooth and Nail. If I want more generic counters, I am always going to hit the more conditional stuff like Miscalculation or Censor before I even begin to look at this. And with a powerful mana base where I can expect to have access to ?

Part of the problem with Prohibit is that it's best case scenario is "adequate". There's no bonus. There's no additional benefit, whether it be tempo, cards, exile effects, versatility, whatever. There are tons of versatile and amazing counterspells with all sorts of bells and whistles. This one is not more efficient, more powerful, more versatile or more beneficial than so many other options. It's flexibility is poor, and the tradeoff for that is basically, it might work. I'd take Essence Scatter and company over Prohibit in a heartbeat.

This card doesn't even have a coolness or fun-factor to make you consider playing a clearly suboptimal card.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Sharpened wrote:
3drinks wrote: And it's totally acceptable to counter that early lightning bolt to protect that birds of paradise. It really is.
Expecting to have 2 mana untapped when my bird gets bolted seems presumptuous. Unless I'm sitting around with mana to spare, in which case, why do I care if my bird gets bolted?
You seem to have this false ideal that you need to be tapping out every turn while not catching that said birds you're protecting pay for half the cost of the prohibit that's saving them from the aforementioned bolt that otherwise spelled their doom. You then go on to make mention of these rhystic counters being better later on than this is...

Have you not drawn a mana leak when they've got 5 mana up? Feels bad I assure you, 0/10 would not recommend it. Or are you playing in an environment where everyone is wind milling their biggest spells every turn and getting by unscathed for such a foolhardy strat?

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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote: You seem to have this false ideal that you need to be tapping out every turn while not catching that said birds you're protecting pay for half the cost of the prohibit that's saving them from the aforementioned bolt that otherwise spelled their doom.
If I am excited to have the birds in order to have mana to pay for a bad counterspell to save the birds, I am too dumb to know what to do with the birds or counterspells.
You then go on to make mention of these rhystic counters being better later on than this is...
I linked to two conditional counterspells with cycling. I would much rather have conditional counterspells that can cycle when they are dead, then this one which cannot. Also, those counterspells can counter every spell Prohibit can (assuming the right situation), and many things it cannot.
Have you not drawn a mana leak when they've got 5 mana up? Feels bad I assure you, 0/10 would not recommend it.
It's hardly functionally different than drawing Prohibit once people are casting high CMC spells. Both spells have their weaknesses. Also, just as people aren't solely windmilling high CMC spells in the later game, they are also not only casting 1 spell a turn. Just because it's past turn 6, doesn't mean that Mana Leak is dead.

Other counterspells have weaknesses. They are still significantly better than Prohibit.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I'd be a little more conservative in my list of superior counterspells, but it'd still be pretty long. These are only counters that I'd consider superior in any environment, no matter how fast or how slow.
For a fast meta, "rhystic" counterspells are going to usually be quite effective. In slow metas, prohibit is really bad, and rhystics will still be able to counter on-curve bombs or big game-winning x-spells, so long as they aren't infinite.

For a fast meta, a 1-mana counterspell that's more restrictive is still probably a lot better. For a slow meta, at least they can counter heavier spells even if they're type-restricted, which is generally more useful imo.

For a powerful meta, the extra blue cost should usually be NBD since you're playing tons of fetches, duals, etc. and easily worth the added flexibility. For a more casual meta, you shouldn't need to counter spells early anyway, so waiting until later when you hit your second blue is fine.

For a fast meta, mindbreak is a really good counterspell to many combo strats that requires no untapped mana. For slow metas, at least it's a flexible, if overpriced, counterspell that can hit uncounterables permanently.

And personally I think the 3-cmc counters are well worth the extra cost even in a fast environment. It'd have to be really, really weirdly fast to not justify the extra cost imo.
3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
It's totally OK to counter those rampant growths and kodama's reaches, guys.
In 1v1 I agree, but in multiplayer, absolutely not. Uninformed people often rag on 1:1 trades in commander saying that you'll end up burning up your hand because you're trying to trade against 3 people, but that's simply not the case - when you're playing control in multiplayer, you've gotta save your answers for the things that really need it. That's where 1:1 trades are excellent. With the buffer of 40 life, multiple other opponents to distract from you, and the (reasonable) tendency to play defensively in multiplayer, most decks only have a few truly must-answer threats, and many lesser threats that can be cleaned up with a wipe when they hit critical mass.

Rampant growth doesn't "really need it". Rampant growth is fine. On turn 2, you have no idea who the threat is going to be in most games. You could easily be countering the rampant growth of the player whose help you're going to want in a few turns in order to rein in someone else, and maybe because you countered that rampant growth they won't be able to help you. But even if that person is the threat, I'd almost always rather have the answer to the threat they're ramping into, rather than just delay it for a turn by countering their ramp.

For that matter, I think the person "bolting the bird" is also making a mistake. 1:1 trades against small potatoes is just not a viable strategy in multiplayer. Maybe if you already know for a fact that a certain player is going to be the threat, because their deck is way, way better than everyone else's...but then it sounds like your meta is kind of bad and maybe you should try to fix that rather than playing archenemy?
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Prohibit seems.... underwhelming to me. I don't necessarily think that narrow counters are bad - if you really want to win counter wars, Dispel is fantastic, while Flusterstorm is great against storm and Remove Soul is great against creatures. You should fundamentally choose your answers based on your deck's weaknesses. That's why my Thada deck has Swan Song and Negate for Cyclonic Rift, Sharuum has a bunch of enchantment removal over countermagic for Rest in Peace and Stony Silence, and Mizzix is willing to run Expansion and Reverberate to stop enemy countermagic.

The issue is thus that, ignoring the question of efficiency entirely, I struggle to think of a deck that specifically cares about stopping cheap spells. When I think of cards that really need to be countered, I think of stuff like Craterhoof Behemoth and Exsanguinate - expensive, flashy finishers. I'm willing to give Spell Snare and Chalice of the Void a pass in other formats because they're so skewed towards cheap spells, but EDH isn't a format defined by spells with CMC 2 (or 4) or less - if anything, it's the opposite.

And of course, once we get into card efficiency, Prohibit looks even worse - you're not generating a mana or tempo advantage, since your opponent will be spending less mana than you. Trading 1-for-1 in a multiplayer format can be good, but it generally requires being tempo-efficient to make up for it being card-negative against the table.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 years ago

Yeah, there are reasons to use Prohibit (usually to save your game-winner from a removal spell or to prevent a tutor). Mana can be something, but does it "need it"? Probably not.

Now, the kicked option does give us things like Necropotence, but again, you have hard counters, things like Swan Song, and things like Mana Leak which are cheaper.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Tuesday, February 11th, 2020; Dread Cacodemon and the somewhat related in function, Reiver Demon



Mostly similar in function, neither can be sneaked to utilize, if you'd play one, you'd play the other. But when would you even play one?

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
But when would you even play one?
This, really. In a colour this heavily invested in reanimation, hardcasting these seems like a ripoff. Sure, black can do it, but whatever you're doing there's almost certainly cheaper ways to wipe the board, and there's better options for beaters too. Dread has no evasion whatsoever which is a shame for the CMC. Both are pretty well outclassed, especially in recent days of the format where you have pretty easy ways to wipe the board in black with things like Massacre Girl, Archfiend of Ifnir and super strong beaters like Razaketh, the Foulblooded.

I guess if you need the creature type or have a way of reliably 'casting without paying mana cost' or whatever the rules text is they might have a place, but they seem like corner cases in this day and age.
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Ah, yes. The classic 'they came in the Kaalia of the Vast precon deck, so clearly they work work her' cards.
....I actually played against a Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck recently that flipped a Wakening Sun's Avatar, to similar results.

Overall? Not really a fan of the cards - ten (or eight) mana is a lot to pay for a board wipe. You're generally not going to be casting them until the extreme lategame... at which point I suppose a large beater is fine, but not amazing. I suppose they're worth consideration if you're already playing Plague Wind or In Garruk's Wake - Dead Cacodemon is essentially more for an 8/8 beater (that also taps your other creatures), while Reiver Demon is one mana less (at the cost of not hitting your opponents' black and artifact creatures).

However, if we're in the extreme lategame, I'd say that Decree of Pain is significantly better than any of these - drawing a pile of cards is more valuable than a large (french) vanilla beater, IMO. I suppose there are some arguments for using the asymmetric board wipes as Sleep effects to get blockers out of the way, but there aren't many decks I can think of that care about preserving their own creatures to attack with that much. Black is also the king of recursion, so blowing up your own creatures isn't quite as much of a detriment, which leads me to somewhat prefer cheaper symmetric boardwipes that I can play in the midgame.

I suppose one perk of Dread Cacodemon / Reiver Demon is that they're creatures, which means they're much easier to recur than sorceries. If you have Phyrexian Reclamation or Tortured Existence, you could potentially wrath the board every turn. Also a valid line in Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Still pretty expensive though.

I'll also give a shout to Magister of Worth - IMO, the best ETB-based wrath effect, since it can actually be reanimated. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is also a solid choice for a reanimate-able wrath.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

I wanted* to put Dread Cacodemon in Rakdos, Lord of Riots. Reiver demon is much harder to cast in that deck.


*My LGS lost DC and refunded me. Then Rakdos, The Showstopper came out and I am less convinced I want Cacodemon.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Wednesday, February 12th, 2020; Mortify



I was late doing yesterday's card, so go ahead and keep commenting on that as well as today's card to get this back on track.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

Outclassed by anguished unmaking. But it's still my second favourite BW removal

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Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
It obviously isn't Anguished Unmaking, Utter End, Vindicate or Generous Gift, but instant speed removal that says "target permanent" or "target creature or X" is always welcome in my decks.
I'd consider this very good Orzhov removal and would propably run it over Despark, maybe even Vindicate for less timing restrictions.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Wednesday, February 12th, 2020; Mortify
As Brago said, it competes with Anguished Unmaking, Vindicate, Utter End, and similar.

I'm torn on whether it'd beat out Despark, but I might be biased since I came across the RNA FNM Promo.

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

i'm definitely running Mortify cos I have stacks of them vs no Vindicates at all. perfectly good card, not even necessarily worse than Anguished Unmaking when yr running precarious mana, Pestilence and/or Moriok Replica type-things, Vilis and all that. (now I've said this, watch me get demolished by a planeswalker the next time I play B/W)

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Post by SocorroTortoise » 4 years ago

I'd put this above both Vindicate and Utter End personally. Instant speed and low CMC are the primary considerations for me when it comes to spot removal, followed closely by flexibility. Anguished Unmaking is definitely the top choice, then Generous Gift. Mortify is probably tied with Despark for numbers 3 and 4 in my book.

I'm generally not interested in Vindicate in any decks at this point. The upsides on its competition are enough to mitigate the various downsides and the sorcery speed is painful. It's a shame - I remember trading a Jace, the Mind Sculptor for a playset of them back in the day.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
4 years ago
I'm generally not interested in Vindicate in any decks at this point.
I've found it clutch against Glacial Chasm-peddlers.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

Generous Gift is # 1 to me. I would then play Anguished Unmaking. Vindicate and Utter End are tied to me. Then Mortify and Despark are on equal footing to me. But I will never play a deck that wants this many of this effect. Would end up play more restricted removal spells first, or more card draw.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 years ago

Guys, Generous Gift exists.

So does Anguished Unmaking. Vindicate is what I'd consider "a land destruction card that doubles as removal". (Basically where I put anything that's a sorcery.)

This is still good, though. Players generally don't put enough instant-speed answers in their decks.
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