How do you brew decks?

WolfWhoWanders
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 3 years ago

How does everyone like to brew decks? For the longest time I would just do the old "browse through the collection, make 300+ card pile and whittle it down into an inaugural deck" method. Recently I've been theory brewing on Moxfield which I've been enjoying. Dozens of half-baked ideas have started coming to fruition, many of them remain half-baked. Some make it to being 100 card decks that never get tested. Others I play with. Some of the ones I've played with, enjoyed or may be seeking help for I end up posting here. They tend to not garner very much interest, but that's mostly ok with me. Essentially, I like using moxfield or (insert preferred website here, this is just the one I started with) to get the ball rolling on deck ideas. It has made the actual crafting of decks much more prolific for me, as an actual list of cards gets formed rather than ideas bouncing around the old brain pan until they find a hole and are gone forever. Possible downsides are I spend far more time theorycrafting on my own rather than discussing and playing. Not that much of either can be done in person right now.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 3 years ago

I guess another question might be, does Nexus have a deckbuilding function similar to that? So far as I know I can post decklists and all that but I can't modify and build a deck as easily as on a deckbuilding site.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I go kinda old school and compile my list in a Word document. I don't like to have any outside help for the first couple of drafts. I don't even consult EDHrec at first; I want the general concept of the deck to be my idea. Many decks never get past Word, but the ones that do get sleeved up and taken to the LGS. After a few games, its strengths and weaknesses begin to come into focus and changes are made accordingly. At this point, the list is pretty much solidified and I may check out EDHrec or other sources.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
3 years ago
I guess another question might be, does Nexus have a deckbuilding function similar to that? So far as I know I can post decklists and all that but I can't modify and build a deck as easily as on a deckbuilding site.
I go to the board at Community → Testing Area, post a decklist in a thread there (visible only to me) and tweak endlessly as needed. I actually find it easier than a lot of deckbuilding sites because most, if not all of the functionality here can be done with keystrokes.

As for the broader question, I also avoid EDHRec until I have a finalized draft so that my deck is as original as can be. I tend to theorycraft as well rather than rifling through my collection prior to having a finalized first draft of a list.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I go to the board at Community → Testing Area, post a decklist in a thread there (visible only to me) and tweak endlessly as needed. I actually find it easier than a lot of deckbuilding sites because most, if not all of the functionality here can be done with keystrokes.

As for the broader question, I also avoid EDHRec until I have a finalized draft so that my deck is as original as can be. I tend to theorycraft as well rather than rifling through my collection prior to having a finalized first draft of a list.
I do the same :p

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I go to the board at Community → Testing Area, post a decklist in a thread there (visible only to me) and tweak endlessly as needed. I actually find it easier than a lot of deckbuilding sites because most, if not all of the functionality here can be done with keystrokes.

As for the broader question, I also avoid EDHRec until I have a finalized draft so that my deck is as original as can be. I tend to theorycraft as well rather than rifling through my collection prior to having a finalized first draft of a list.
I do the same :p

Technically Feyd (site owner and developer) and the Admin team can all see them too. Poor bastards.
That's where my bad ideas go to die. Better for them if they never look :laugh:
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

Step 1: I decide on a Commander I like.
Step 2: I open a word document and write down cards I want to use, organized by function and starting with an "engine" (default baseline of 10ish "ramp" cards, 10ish "draw" cards, and 10ish "answer" cards. I will try to make the engine have some synergy (for instance, including mana elves as part of the ramp of an elf deck, or utilizing Everflowing Chalice over Mind Stone in a deck that has some proliferate spells).
Step 3: Usually that only gets me to 50ish cards, so I use Scryfall and EDHRecs to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious. For a more esoteric idea (like Saskia curses), I may also google and see if someone has put a similarish deck onto Tapped Out or these very forums.
Step 4: I get to finding the cards I want, As I sift through binders and boxes, cards that weren't on the EDHREC list or my word document catch my eye and end up in the pile (also, commonly, I think I own a card only to find I don't own it/have lost it/traded it/am currently using all my copies), requiring me to find a substitute as I am loathe to order new cards.
Step 5: Now I have a massive pile of 200 cards instead of the tightly tuned ~100 I wrote down. I get to physically building piles of "engine" (draw, removal, ramp). I also start visualizing play patterns, optimal openers, and endgames.
Step 6: I write down the list here and/or in my ManaBox app to help make sure the curve isn't toooo out of control and to help check color ratios for my lands.
Step 7: I try to make myself play at least two games before making adjustments, but inevitably adjustments are required as my theoretical decks rarely play out as I planned - most typically, lands are slightly shifted and curves adjusted down.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 3 years ago

I need inspiration to really strike before I start building a new deck. Which typically starts with a Commander or Theme. With limited time to play, the decks I have currently built barely get enough action. Having a theme helps me streamline the card choices and keep the deck synergy high. I have been having more fun with high synergy decks than good stuff decks.

I'll start with a mental idea of how I want the deck to play and what I want it to do. This will bring up some of the cards common to the theme or that support it well. Next I'll go through the binder and EDH boxes and pull cards that support the theme or might be good in the deck. At this point I should be able to see if this idea would be supported by my collection enough to become a deck.

Next is the data mining. I have not used EDHrec much, but I have used Gatherer extensively to great effect. Both of these resources will be used when I build my next deck. I look for niche cards for the theme or cards I overlooked that really go well in the deck. Not looking for heavy netdecking, just cards I may have missed or don't already own that I might want for the deck. I have become very fluent in gatherer, especially if I am looking for a specific type of card. If you have a specific type of card you are looking for, Gatherer is where I go. Example: 2 cmc or less instant that will grant a creature trample (or protection) and draw a card.

The last couple of decks I played with the cards I owned and some proxies of cheaper cards that I didn't own to see if they were worth purchasing. I have also tested a commander without all the engine pieces I wanted to use with them and that was disappointing overall. So now I will at least proxy some of the more important synergy cards so I can really get a feel for the deck. Ghen, Arcanum Weaver is on my radar and I will likely need to proxy a few cards should it get sleeved up because my enchantment collection is missing all the newer toys. Lacking green is actually a huge plus for me on that front.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

It usually starts with a set of cards I want to play or a theme. I almost always have a lands themed deck to play my Bazaar of Baghdad for example as far as themes go, and I usually have an enchantment themed one for Serra's Sanctum.

As far as how I do it, I have holiday gift boxes full of cheap staples and binders full of expensive staples, and one of those big card sorting trays. I start with about 200 cards I like with the deck concept spread out on the tray so I can look at piles at a time and then winnow down until I have a deck. It usually takes a few hours but sometimes I'll leave the tray out for a few days now that my kid is grown up enough to not mess with it :)

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Post by wildfire393 » 3 years ago

How I want to make decks: Meticulously select the best cards using an online deckbuilder, then sort through my collection and pull just those cards, directly into a perfectly-crafted deck.

How I actually make decks: Flip through my collection for the core cards I know I want, grabbing a bunch of other stuff that seems cool in the process. End up with more than 100 nonlands and have to pare it down, leaving piles of mixed cards sitting on a table. Grouse that I can't find cards I know I have (because they're probably in one of those mixed piles). Order another copy online. Find the original after the new one gets here. Remember halfway through the first game that there were more cards I wanted to run.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

wildfire393 wrote:
3 years ago
Remember halfway through the first game that there were more cards I wanted to run.
I felt this one in my bones.
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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

My decks coalesce fully-formed, directly out of the aether. Then they promptly explode, because aether is apparently an extremely volatile substance, forcing me to rebuild in paper.
  • I usually start with a deck concept, which consists of a commander + gameplan pair. From there, I have two options for actually building the deck.
  • One way is to use another deck as a skeleton - this will usually be a precon that happens to strongly overlap with what I want to do, but sometimes I use one of my existing decks. The alternative is to build a deck from scratch.
  • Either way, the next step is to go through my collection and pull out every card related to the commander + gameplan pair. If I'm building from scratch, I'll also need to pull out interaction / ramp / card draw / etc, but if I'm using a skeleton I can usually skip that and just pull out synergy / theme cards.
  • After I have my pile of cards, I'll spend some amount of time trimming them down, with any excess cards being stored in a 'maybe' pile. Add lands as necessary.
  • At this point, I have Version 0 of the deck. I'll play a game or two to see how things feel, then go back to the 'maybe' pile and swap things out as appropriate, now that I have a better understanding of how it will function. This yields Version 0.5.
  • Next step, after testing the new version, is to actually order cards. I usually keep a list of cards I want for decks, so I don't need to do that much digging. Swap in those cards as appropriate, and I have Version 0.9. Again, will have excess cards in the 'maybe' pile. After a test run or two, will swap cards around, and if I'm happy with how the deck functions I'll officially call it Version 1.0 - this is the point where it finally actually feels like a cohesive deck, and not just a pile of cards. If I feel like it, I'll compile a list and store it on the interwebs somewhere.
I'm not a big fan of the 'create list of cards → acquire cards → test' flow, because I value having testing earlier in the process. My flow is more 'acquire cards → test → create list of cards to upgrade'. The initial version is usually pretty rough as a result, but it also will include a bunch of oddball cards that allow for data gathering I would otherwise never get.

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

I'd love to say i'm one of those guys flipping through boxes and binders, because it reminds me of the first few years in - but the reality is, i'm the exact opposite.
I always start out with a commander i'm intrigued with, which might sound simple, but since i'm not just theory crafting and want to own all my decks in paper without proxies, with all of that on a student budget, it can take up to a few months to go ahead.
I'm tracking progress in tappedout lists set as prototypes and private until i actually got the cards. I usually start with a manabase of 35-ish lands because that's the smallest sample size within the card pool as well as the easiest to decide on. The next step is the most tedious and awesome part at the same time - i run an advanced search of all legal nonland cards within color identity on scryfall and sift through them, even if i have to stretch it out over a few sessions. I'd say on average my rough decklist is 150-200 cards big by then, filled with staples, well known synergies and odd options, like Possibility Storm for Zada, Hedron Grinder or Patchwork Gnomes for Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. As not to miss anything i'll take a swift look at EDHrec next, likely picking up 1-2 overlooked interactions and realizing how bland and interchangable people build their decks apparently.
As with maintained lists, cuts are likely the hardest to come by. Going down to 7-ish ramp cards, 2-3 wraths, 3-4 creature removals and 2-3 versatile removals first leaves me with a remaining pool of cards that'll have fit into the 50 left slots. Aside from curve and necessity, price is very important when it comes to my initial list. Sure i'd like to run both Phrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar where possible, but given their price tags i'll start out with Ashnod's and note the other one for times when i want to reward myself. Cards that get cut in the last few steps, which i know i own, go into the maybeboard as filler cards, in case i want to play the deck before all shipments have arrived.
Once i achieve 99 cards i'll playtest my list on Xmage for 2-3 rounds, looking for underachievers. But to be fair, after all these years and decks it's mostly to find out if i like the lines of play in a more effective way than just goldfishing. Once i put out my cardmarket orders and cataloged future investments, i'll use the days up to arrival to get further games in online, learning to maneuver my build, trying not to get too impatient with poastal services.
Reading my description it doesn't sound too fancy, but it's proven to work flawlessly for years now.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I used to build decks based entirely on a specific theme or general. I have had a Voltron deck built around Alela, Artful Provocateur, a Naya Enchantress deck with Johan, an Abzan Enchantress deck with Teneb, the Harvester, Teysa Karlov built around LTB triggers, Kess, Dissident Mage and Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest were built with Spellslinger in mind.

Note these are part of my 57 "retired" decks. I currently have 22 "In Progress" decks though these are really decks I started and thought better of and never went back to. So, not a lot of progress being done on them. I know others have far more but my deckbuilding has slowed immensely in the last 2 years partly because of decks like these.

That is, I used to latch onto a general or an idea and do whatever I could to make it work. But the problem was that I would be so enamored with the idea of a deck (Horobi, Death's Wail seems like an awesome MBC commander with anything that can target!!) that I didn't give as much thought to how much fun they would be to play. And they were not fun. Either they were inconsistent, played in a space I didn't find enjoyable, were outright terrible even with the constant tweaking, or, in some rare cases, just far too good, too consistent, that they became boring (The Gitrog Monster is probably my go to example of this).

Because of some of my past "impulsiveness" with decks, I tend to take a slower, more methodical (or maybe more logical) approach to building new decks. Generally speaking, new commanders are what get me in the mood for building a new deck. I don't do as much about building around an idea/theme anymore unless the commander itself ties into that theme. Johan and Teneb above really showed me that it wasn't as fun without a commander that was in on the action in some useful capacity. Though, an overreliance on the general (see Horobi) isn't fun either so the balance between them is key.

When I do find a commander I like, I immediately start going through as many cards as I can think of that might be good in the deck. For example: for Yarok, the Desecrated I just searched for anything with an ETB trigger that might be good in the deck. And I add them to the list of cards to include.

From there, I start trimming the fat. This 7 CMC spell that is only good with Yarok on the field: cut. This 2 CMC spell that even doubling up on triggers is still sort of meh: cut. I just continue in this vein until I get to a group of cards I want to try out. This would also include adding in things like wraths, spot removal, counterspells, etc. and making sure things don't get too far away from the central core of the deck.

The very last thing I do is add lands. And, a lot of times, it is basically just "add as many duals as I can remember then add basics until I get to 39" and start with that. I do end up making the mana base "right" but during early parts of the process, I just want to make sure I have enough lands and some mana fixing.

Now, a lot of times I get bored just building the deck or thinking about what the deck is going to do. Yarok and Muldrotha were big for this. Yarok almost seemed overdone at the point I was doing him and Muldrotha was too close to Karador (a common theme for any graveyard based commander; and most Jund commanders for that matter). So, I scrapped them in the deckbuilding phase and never revisited them. Which, for me, is super important. In the past I would spend a lot of time trying to make a theme work and it was almost always an exercise in futility. Once I have the realization that a deck isn't what I want to be, especially during deckbuilding, I just give up on it instead of trying to force it to work as doing so almost never works out. Sometimes I just need to trust myself when I think a deck idea is terrible :)

I have come to find that the most fun part of EDH deckbuilding comes far after the initial build though. It is the constant tweaking. It is the molding of a deck into a "perfect" 99 cards. And since a deck is never perfect, the tweaking is never done. That is why any deck I intend to have around for a while gets a thread here. Testing, tweaking, evaluating, and discussing with others what is good, bad, questionable, overlooked, etc. are some of the more fun parts of the process. For me anyway. It is why I have been playing Windgrace more than others lately since it is currently in a "rebuilding" phase. If I end up with a deck that isn't fun to constantly (re)examine card choices, then it generally isn't fun enough to be a deck in my rotation.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I have come to find that the most fun part of EDH deckbuilding comes far after the initial build though. It is the constant tweaking. It is the molding of a deck into a "perfect" 99 cards. And since a deck is never perfect, the tweaking is never done. That is why any deck I intend to have around for a while gets a thread here. Testing, tweaking, evaluating, and discussing with others what is good, bad, questionable, overlooked, etc. are some of the more fun parts of the process. For me anyway. It is why I have been playing Windgrace more than others lately since it is currently in a "rebuilding" phase. If I end up with a deck that isn't fun to constantly (re)examine card choices, then it generally isn't fun enough to be a deck in my rotation.
I used to feel dumb changing stuff up in Kykar so much until I learned all of the above for myself. Once you have a deck you like, start fine tuning all the various knobs of synergy and buckle up: it's a fun, wild ride.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

With the exception of Zedruu, which is a complicated circus balancing act to try and precisely get every idea I have into it all at the same time, my decks are all piles of cards pulled haphazardly out of bigger piles of cards and then adjusted one card at a time as cards bore me enough to be replaced.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

I feel like I'm gonna catch flak for not being sufficiently original, but I'm a research hound. I dig into every list, aggregate data set, anything I can find and I try to assemble a holistic picture of what a given general/deck can do. If I like the size of the spread and it looks like there's room to explore multiple avenues of attack, I move to theorycraft and list drafting. If all the lists and data look really redundant and linear, I stay away.

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

I usually start with an idea. It can be a general, a theme, or specific cards that I want to build around. (for example, Tainted Aether and Panharmonicon)

If my idea is not a general, I first figure out which general would fit best. (in my example, I knew I wanted black and red so Mogis, God of Slaughter was the best fit)

Then, I go through my collection looking for cards that fit the idea. I usually get a pile of 100-200 cards.
Depending on my idea, I may look online for cards that fit the idea (in my example, Acorn Catapult, Forbidden Orchard and more)

Then I go through the pile. I often separate cards into different categories: Must play, Generally good cards, Ramp, Card draw, etc. This gives me an idea of what my deck will look like and what I need to make it functional.
I will then trim the cards that seem least necessary to the deck, and start looking at Curve. A great way to cut cards is to look and see that you have too many high CMC cards, and focus on cutting some of those.

I will then start goldfishing, even with a pile of 120+ cards. It helps me find nonbos, get a feel for clunkiness, etc. It also helps me notice new synergies.

As I do this, I slowly start cutting more and more cards, until I end up with my 99.


I know this is long and tedious. I know that sometimes I realize months later that I didn't put a painland in the deck because they were hanging out with a pile for another deck I never finished. But honestly, this is the only way I want to build. To me, looking through my collection is an exploration of where the deck can go. If I just used scryfall and EDHrec to make my 99, I feel like I would miss out on possibly interesting interactions.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

I have a box of "cards that interest me", have since I played 60 card casual and mostly traded on the basis of "what looks neat". Once a theme in that box reaches critical mass, that tends to become my next commander deck. For my first couple months with a deck, I keep a maybeboard and shuffle things in and out until I get a feel for what it's supposed to be.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Honestly, I just build an absolute baseline in commons and uncommons and play that for a month or two, making detailed notes of what worked and what didn't. This allows me to analyze what I do well, without ancillary data getting in the way like "well I won, thanks to that Dread Return for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite" which seldom has anything to do with the deck and instead was just a good interaction I leaned back on.

Plus, most the good interaction you want is in common and uncommon anyway, save a few bucks and consider a Forsake the Worldly or Eliminate over a Hero's Downfall or Murderous Rider // Swift End. Or consider more cycling removals at the common end like Radiant's Judgment or Easy Prey to fill out your last few removal slots. Like, sure, some of the best and most efficient removal spells are at rare, or are uncommons with thirty prints and still selling for $2-$3 each (looking at you Plowshares), but we're not in a sanctioned format, how much are you really giving up to run these more flexible answers?

This is probably a thesis I should write it's own topic on.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
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RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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