Three-color mana bases these days.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I find because of all the greedy blue mana costs like Cryptic Command and Archmage's Charm that I am pretty prone to running the blue filters in blue decks. Black is another color where the pip count on the cards I like is pretty high.

I definitely prefer them over having to track life totals every time I tap lands. I basically never run confluence/brass in 3 color decks just because the bookkeeping is so annoying.
I generally don't use them either, but I've had a few games with Kykar were the plethora of 5C lands, duals and mana rocks still weren't good enough. I still may try filters if I can track down a Cascade Bluffs.

Do you often run 3-pip cards like the ones you mentioned in 3C decks? Seems risky.
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Throwing in my two cents:

Background Of the 10 EDH decks I run, seven are tri-colored and three mono-colored. Why no two-color decks? I'm not sure. That's just how it's played out so far. So, this is what I tend to run in my tri-colored decks:
  • 3 Fetches (on-color); don't want to spend more money to run off-colored fetches as well
  • 3 Shock lands
  • 3 Check lands
  • 3 Pain lands
  • 3 Filter lands
  • 4-5 Prisms, always including Command Tower, Exotic Orchard, and Mana Confluence; sometimes including Prismatic Vista, Reflecting Pool, and/or City of Brass
  • Ancient Tomb
  • 1-2 Tango lands
  • 8-12 Basics
  • 2-4 Utility lands
I have 3 of the original ABU duals that are being used in two of these decks, but I don't plan on ever paying for any more them. (I got the original three early on.) Ancient Tomb is about as far as I'd go price-wise these days and even that's getting pretty steep these days. I've pretty much "traded" via Cardsphere for all of the Ancient Tombs, Fetches, Shocks, Mana Confluences, and Prismatic Vistas that I have.

I started with the majority of my current land pattern from the get-go after watching a few videos on building three-color mana bases for Commander. I started playing MTG in 1992 and then played very intermittently until a full stop in 2008 (kids). I started playing Commander in 2018 after a 10-year hiatus, so the videos were handy to learn a bit about the format. (BTW...I LOVE this format!!!) Early on, I tried playing with a Lair here and there, a Bicycle or two, a Shard tri-land, :P etc. But after awhile, I realized I didn't like any lands that always come into play tapped, even Bojuka Bog. The Bog is definitely useful, but I just don't like lands that will always slow me down. I guess that's my pet peeve, probably to my detriment in certain situations.

Now my main point for posting. After reading this thread, what I've noticed is that we've all posted our current 3-color mana base patterns, but I'm curious as to HOW folks arrived at their current patterns and WHY? What drove you to your current patterns? Like I said, I don't like playing any lands that "always" ETB tapped because they slow me down a turn. It doesn't feel good to me. I've noticed some folks pointed to cost as to why they may not run any Fetches or the expensive Prisms, but I'm sure there are other reasons why folks fell into their 3-color mana base patterns.

Side note: I don't mind the Filter lands at all. They generally help and I often don't keep a starting hand with only a Filter and Utility(ies), but I don't think I run that many Utility lands in the first place.

And a final tangential question: Are there any particular utility lands that you each love to run? Maybe that should be in its own thread though?

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Now my main point for posting. After reading this thread, what I've noticed is that we've all posted our current 3-color mana base patterns, but I'm curious as to HOW folks arrived at their current patterns and WHY? What drove you to your current patterns? Like I said, I don't like playing any lands that "always" ETB tapped because they slow me down a turn. It doesn't feel good to me. I've noticed some folks pointed to cost as to why they may not run any Fetches or the expensive Prisms, but I'm sure there are other reasons why folks fell into their 3-color mana base patterns.
Trial and error, as well as trusting my instincts as a Magic player of quite a few years. I also returned to the game in 2011. I played Standard at the time, and mana bases had fast lands, checks, and shocks to choose from. It took a bit of effort to make a three-color deck click in that format, and the skill translated to Commander pretty well.
And a final tangential question: Are there any particular utility lands that you each love to run? Maybe that should be in its own thread though?
This topic is right at home in this thread, though it could very well carry its own. Personally, I try to find utility lands that actively support my game plan. For instance, Detection Tower and Arcane Lighthouse were tailor-made for Merieke Ri Berit. Sometimes, though, there aren't perfect fits like those. Frankly, I still like Reliquary Tower, but Scavenger Grounds and Wasteland variants are starting to make their way into my decks.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
Do you often run 3-pip cards like the ones you mentioned in 3C decks? Seems risky.
Sure do. with 2 blue filters and 10 fetches 3 duals 3 shocks etc. it's easy to make colors, especially in blue where you have cantrips to help.

I won't run them in multiple colors for the most part, but I typically have one color that can support triple pip spells. In a UGx deck I could see playing UUU and GGG spells though.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
This topic is right at home in this thread, though it could very well carry its own. Personally, I try to find utility lands that actively support my game plan. For instance, Detection Tower and Arcane Lighthouse were tailor-made for Merieke Ri Berit. Sometimes, though, there aren't perfect fits like those. Frankly, I still like Reliquary Tower, but Scavenger Grounds and Wasteland variants are starting to make their way into my decks.
First off, I'd never heard of Merieke before. She seems like a really cool Commander to me!! I'm quite partial to Esper though. As for Scavenger Grounds et al, I too have been using them more often in decks where I don't care about my own GY (minimal to no recursion). Lately, I've put Rogue's Passage in a few decks as that's been quite handy to get creatures through or Commander's that give you a benefit for attacking, but may be prone to an easy combat death.

One prism land that I've been occasionally struggling with is Reflecting Pool in opening hands. It's been a challenge at times and sometimes I wish I wasn't running it. How has it mostly been for you?

On another side note for non-green decks, I initially played the Signets quite heavily, but I've slowly been swapping them out for Talisman's as I find they're far less awkward and the 1-3 points of pain really isn't a deterrent in Commander.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

re: utility lands: when I think Utility lands, I think of lands that tap for colorless only. Those are scary in a 3-color deck because they can contribute to dead draws if you were already on a questionable keep. I'll jam Bojuka Bog in my Bxy decks all day, I'll fearlessly toss Mystic Sanctuary into my Uxy decks, and I'm not scared to run cycling lands or even Urborg + Cabal Coffers if the deck supports it, but a land that only taps for C is pretty spooky in a 3+ color deck. That being said...

- I like Reliquary Tower more than most although it's obviously at its best with a Commander that has "draw a card" in its textbox (like Arcades) and/or has tons of fixing otherwise to soak the misery of a colorless land (like Arcades). It's not an auto-include by any means, but I do run it reasonably often although more often in a 2-color deck where its less scary. All my copies are currently in use, but I think only Phelddagrif and Arcades are running it among the tricolor decks.
- I also enjoy High Market in basically any deck that has a creature count of 30+. Being able to sac a key card in response to thievery or lock effects can be a big deal. I'm not positive but I think I'm running this in Varina now? Even above and beyond Unholy Grotto if you'd believe it. I also have copies in Sai, Daretti, Gitrog...like I said, I like the card.
- I'd run Scavenger Grounds a lot more if I had more than 1 copy. GY hate is a necessity these days imo and I'd usually rather have this in my landslot than a Relic of Progenitus in my maindeck. Currently the lone copy is in Phel but I'd run it in lots more places including probably Samut and Arcades if I had more.

After that it depends a lot, but I find in most RGx decks I'm looking long and hard at Kessig Wolf Run as a powerful endgame card, and ditto Desolate Lighthouse in most URx decks as a nice way to filter cards. Both are seeing play in the decks I own that currently support them. Meanwhile, Phelddagrif runs a ton of utility lands because as a deck it runs like 44 lands so, like, why not right?

Lots of other popular colorless lands (Rogue's Passage, Arcane Lighthouse, Homeward Path, Tower of the Magistrate, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith and its variants) I'd be really hard pressed to include in a 3+ color deck unless it was absolutely pivotal to the deck's gameplan. Just too risky.

I used to run a Ghost Quarter, Dust Bowl, etc (I somehow own five of them but only one Strip Mine and zero Wastelands :() in almost every deck as an "out" to degenerate mana engines like Coffers, Cradle, Nykthos, etc, but nowadays I tend to only run them if the deck also has some sort of support for it (like Gitrog). I see a reasonable amount of such lands but not enough to make it worth the slot.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 3 years ago

Favorite utility lands. There are many others I like, but these would be some of the first I consider for a new deck. Minus the Diamond Valley because I'll never own more than the one, so it is spoken for. Honorable mention to Rishadan Port which I don't find myself wanting in many decks, but it has a spot in one deck as anti-counterspell tech. If I am gearing up for a big play, leave Port open, EOT tap oppoent's open blue. On my turn, tap another open blue, and cast spells freely. Yes they can leave more mana open, but it has worked well for me in the past. Control players will budget their mana very carefully, and usually don't have the extra 1-2 mana required to pay the Port tax and keep up interaction while advancing their field. Plus is can screw with any other utility land at the table.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
Do you often run 3-pip cards like the ones you mentioned in 3C decks? Seems risky.
Sure do. with 2 blue filters and 10 fetches 3 duals 3 shocks etc. it's easy to make colors, especially in blue where you have cantrips to help.

I won't run them in multiple colors for the most part, but I typically have one color that can support triple pip spells. In a UGx deck I could see playing UUU and GGG spells though.
You definitely have access for a more expensive suite of lands than I. I don't think I'd worry about greedy casting costs with that setup.
ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
First off, I'd never heard of Merieke before. She seems like a really cool Commander to me!! I'm quite partial to Esper though. As for Scavenger Grounds et al, I too have been using them more often in decks where I don't care about my own GY (minimal to no recursion). Lately, I've put Rogue's Passage in a few decks as that's been quite handy to get creatures through or Commander's that give you a benefit for attacking, but may be prone to an easy combat death.

One prism land that I've been occasionally struggling with is Reflecting Pool in opening hands. It's been a challenge at times and sometimes I wish I wasn't running it. How has it mostly been for you?

On another side note for non-green decks, I initially played the Signets quite heavily, but I've slowly been swapping them out for Talisman's as I find they're far less awkward and the 1-3 points of pain really isn't a deterrent in Commander.
Merieke Ri Berit is definitely a cool commander. She can become a bit of a boogeyman, especially for creature-heavy decks. When it comes to Reflecting Pool, my only problem with it is that I don't own more copies. I can't say I've never kept a bad hand with it, and I have had the odd game where it was useless early on. Overall though, my decks normally have mana bases that let it tap for any color I need. I suppose that the more basics you have, the worse it gets.

I don't know about swapping signets out. For my non-green decks lately, I've been going with:

Arcane Signet
3 signets
3 talismans
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble

I'll sometimes use Mind Stone or Thought Vessel if I run out of the others, or if the deck can handle their colorlessness.

@PrimevalCommander: I like a lot of those choices. Thanks for reminding me that I need to pick up some copies of Blast Zone.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know about swapping signets out. For my non-green decks lately, I've been going with:

Arcane Signet
3 signets
3 talismans
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble
Wow that is a buttload of ramp rocks in a deck that doesn't have artifact synergy. Do you find that the signets are really that great outside of an artifact synergy shell?

My experience playing that many rocks was I usually preferred just hitting my land drops than playing rocks that inevitably got blown up.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Now my main point for posting. After reading this thread, what I've noticed is that we've all posted our current 3-color mana base patterns, but I'm curious as to HOW folks arrived at their current patterns and WHY? What drove you to your current patterns?
I didn't post my preferences earlier because the question felt too generic in some sense: my three-colour mana bases vary between each tricolour combination.

Generally my priority order is:
Command Tower
Fetches
Revised Duals (if available)
Shocks
Battlebond lands
Checklands
Tango Lands
Ancestor's Path
Tri-land/Triome
Filter
Pain
Bicycle

However, due to availability, my tricolour bases don't tend to resemble each other much. I like to have symmetry, so I don't play 1-2 of a cycle (unless it's incomplete, like Battlebond lands until recently). So, for revised duals; I'll play 0 or 3, but not one or two. For example, I have the Grixis filter lands, but not (outside my 5c slivers) spare duals. But, for Temur, I have spare duals (but no extra R/G filter).
And a final tangential question: Are there any particular utility lands that you each love to run? Maybe that should be in its own thread though?
This question is part of the other variance in my mana bases. I really like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, and will strain to play more non-basic or dual plains in my three colour decks. Other than that, I usually find room for Tectonic Edge, and often High Market or Scavenger Grounds. After those, when colours allow, I will always play Kessig Wolf Run, Alchemist's Refuge, Vault of the Archangel, and Naya Hideaway lands.

I will also nearly always play Mirrorpool, unless I don't have enough colourless sources to support it.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know about swapping signets out. For my non-green decks lately, I've been going with:

Arcane Signet
3 signets
3 talismans
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble
Wow that is a buttload of ramp rocks in a deck that doesn't have artifact synergy. Do you find that the signets are really that great outside of an artifact synergy shell?

My experience playing that many rocks was I usually preferred just hitting my land drops than playing rocks that inevitably got blown up.
Making my land drops is still of the utmost importance, but I still want to ramp. They rarely get blown up, and when they do, it's typically a late-game board wipe from which I can usually recover since I've still been making land drops. Besides, it's not like they're all on the field together at once, and the main deck i'm thinking of here is Kykar, Wind's Fury, which does have a bit of synergy with the rocks.
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know about swapping signets out. For my non-green decks lately, I've been going with:

Arcane Signet
3 signets
3 talismans
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble
Wow that is a buttload of ramp rocks in a deck that doesn't have artifact synergy. Do you find that the signets are really that great outside of an artifact synergy shell?

My experience playing that many rocks was I usually preferred just hitting my land drops than playing rocks that inevitably got blown up.
My starting point is "10 ramp cards" - ramping ahead is a crucial part of the game, so for me a 3CMC deck starts there too if I can. I will usually drop Talismans and Wayfarer's in a green-based deck because, as noted, you are less likely to get blown out if you are Rampant Growthing than you are chaining signets. I also don't always own enough copies of the signets and talismans and even baubles, so depending on the deck I'll add Coldsteel Heart, Fellwar Stone, Mind Stone, Thought Vessel, Commander's Sphere, Solemn Simulacrum, and Chromatic Lantern to the party to get to 10. I'll go higher (and start cutting lands or other random utility cards) in a deck like Alela, Artful Provocateur that has some artifact synergies, but I'd only go lower in a deck like, I dunno, Rograkh + Thrasios where my commanders were super low on the curve?

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Hmm, interesting. For me, I look for every reason I can to not run heavy on rocks even outside of green. Preferably zero outside of Sol Ring, especially if I'm running stuff like Hour of Revelation // Austere Command // etc.

I'd usually rather just lower the curve than play rocks that only ramp 1. I really do not love incidentally ramping. Ephara, God of the Polis is the only deck where I run a lot of 2-drop ramp because Ephara is so valuable to get out early and I've been dialing it back there and focusing on creatures more.

I'll usually only bother with many rocks if they're going to ramp into other rocks and reach critical mass otherwise. Kykar and Alela make sense of course, there's a synergy there, but random Boros decks I think I'd play more artifact/enchantment hitting sweepers than bother playing my own rocks.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm, interesting. For me, I look for every reason I can to not run heavy on rocks even outside of green. Preferably zero outside of Sol Ring, especially if I'm running stuff like Hour of Revelation // Austere Command // etc.

I'd usually rather just lower the curve than play rocks that only ramp 1. I really do not love incidentally ramping. Ephara, God of the Polis is the only deck where I run a lot of 2-drop ramp because Ephara is so valuable to get out early and I've been dialing it back there and focusing on creatures more.

I'll usually only bother with many rocks if they're going to ramp into other rocks and reach critical mass otherwise. Kykar and Alela make sense of course, there's a synergy there, but random Boros decks I think I'd play more artifact/enchantment hitting sweepers than bother playing my own rocks.
That's fair, and to me I've started backing off from my "must run 10 ramp cards" mantra depending on the deck. Like, I don't have a Feather, the Redeemed deck - but if I did, I can't imagine wanting a full 10 ramp cards. That deck really, really, really wants to be curving dudes into Feather. It's also mana hungry, and for sure I'd be running Ring + two Signets + probably Talisman - but I'd imagine any other ramp is too slow and too durdly compared to just curving dudes into commander into tricks. Or to use an actual tricolor example - I can't imagine running anything outside of Arcane Signet + Sol Ring in an Edgar Markov build, because that deck wants to run literally every 1-cost vampire and most 2-cost vampires and just spam hordes of vamps every turn, not take a turn to toss out a rock.

I suppose if your meta is super hostile to rocks, it's worth backing off too - in mine, very few folks play Vandalblast and as noted there's usually abudant time to rebuild after a Austere Command or a Cyclonic Rift. It helps that most rocks I like EtB untapped, so rebuilding after a Rift is a cinch.

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Post by NZB2323 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm, interesting. For me, I look for every reason I can to not run heavy on rocks even outside of green. Preferably zero outside of Sol Ring, especially if I'm running stuff like Hour of Revelation // Austere Command // etc.

I'd usually rather just lower the curve than play rocks that only ramp 1. I really do not love incidentally ramping. Ephara, God of the Polis is the only deck where I run a lot of 2-drop ramp because Ephara is so valuable to get out early and I've been dialing it back there and focusing on creatures more.

I'll usually only bother with many rocks if they're going to ramp into other rocks and reach critical mass otherwise. Kykar and Alela make sense of course, there's a synergy there, but random Boros decks I think I'd play more artifact/enchantment hitting sweepers than bother playing my own rocks.
For me, it depends on the deck. Edgar Markov is super low curve so I run no mana rocks, and outside of Sacred Foundry all the lands are either Rakdos or Orzhov because the deck is really a black deck that splashes red and white.

Kaalia runs rocks because playing them turn 2 allows me to play her turn 3 which can be a huge deal.

Ghen I'm still building but I'm leaning towards rocks so I can ramp/mana fix into him, his ability, and all the cards I want to hard cast.
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Post by Sharpened » 3 years ago

I think a lot of the discussion in this thread is fine, but I think there are a few key nuances that get glossed over.

Look, there are so many options for 3 color lands, there's no shortage of choice. But it's not just about your 3 colors.

Your decks fixing/ramp package plays a huge role, and cannot be ignored.
Are you playing mana rocks? Are you playing green ramp spells? The lands in your deck are only part of your manabase, and if you don't pay attention to the interactions between them and the synergies with the rest of your deck, you are doing yourself a disservice.

Your deck is unlikely to be evenly split between the 3 colors, and your mana base should be balanced accordingly.
My 3 color Korvold deck has interesting tensions.
Green is obviously my most important color, for 2 reasons:
A lot of my fixing is green. If I have access to green, I can get access to other colors.
My 1 drops skew heavily to green (6 green 1 drops, 1 black, 1 red - although the red spell and 1 of the green spells are unlikely to be used immediately even if they can be).
Black, while not as crucial as green, is more intensive. The needs are different. I don't need to hit my first as fast as my first , but I'll need to be able to generate more than my need for .
And while red is my least necessary color to produce, I care about having a mountain in play more than a forest or a swamp.

Play patterns and the cards in your deck can shift your manabases needs and wants.
If you are rocking landfall cards, that can shift what you are doing. Pushing an emphasis to fetchlands or other tricks that may not have been there before.
Recursion - or tutors can also push and pull in different directions.
Do you have enough basics for your cards that care (if you have cards that care). Should you run more basics in case of nonbasic hate? What utility lands interact with all the other stuff you are doing? There is no point in running Reliquary Tower if you empty your hand and can't refill. What lands serve you best?


I find the process of building a manabase starts with a rough core of a deck. If you have a rough draft of the rest of your deck, you can begin to draft a manabase that's complimentary. Building your manabase first feels like building the engine before the vehicle. I'm no mechanic, but I'm pretty sure you are going to want to know if it's a tank or a sportscar or a tow truck or what before you pick out and customize the engine.

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Post by knight_seb » 3 years ago

Hello,
I have currently 9 tricolor EDH decks (only Bant is missing). I currently don't own any temples, Tango land, Battlebond land, hand land (like Port Town). So I usually use the same pattern :

3 shockland
3 Checkland
3 painland
3 bounceland
2 to 4 triland : Command Tower, Triland (as Arcane sanctum for example), Opal Palace, Reflecting pool, exotic orchard, Murmuring bosk in WBG, etc ...
Depending of the deck, I used to add 3 fetchlands (like Arid Mesa) but I don't play Terramorphic expanse/Evolving Wilds/Prismatic Vista (which I don't own). But I tend to remove them.

If I play black, I will add the Tainted land. I usually replace a swamp with Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth.

I will also add some utility lands : academy ruins, Bojuka bog (in all my Bxy decks), Reliquary tower (if I draw a lot), Temple of the false god, Kessig Wolf's Run, Gavony Township, Unholy Grotto, Volrath's stronghold, Mistveil plains, Vault of the archangel, Rogue passage ... I could also add a manland (like Celestial Colonnade)

So, in the end, as I always play 38 lands (excepted my mono white Kemba deck which runs only 37), I put between 11 and 16 basic lands. To choose how many of each I add, I use the following method :
- First I count how many cards I have in each color (the bicolor/tricolor count 1 for each color)
- Second, I count the colored mana requested for each card. It indicates which colors are mana hungry
- Third, I count how many land can produce each different colored mana excepted basic land. For example, Sacred foundry count 1 white and 1 red, same for Battlefield Forge, Clifftop retreat ... Command tower count 1 in all colors.
- Fourth, I complete the third part with basics to reflect at best the distribution of the first and second part.

For example, in my Mayael the Anima, I have 2 mountains but 7 forests and 5 plains (Green and white are predominant here). On the contrary, in my The Mimeoplasm, all the colors are equivalent so I run a lot of bicolor/tricolor land producer and 3 island, 5 forest and 5 swamps.

Temple and Tango land are options I strongly consider to add.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 3 years ago

Wedge is looking great, better than arc even. (Though Naya does have Skyshroud Elf, which is probably the single greatest mana dork in Naya. People tend to forget this obscure gem.)

The big problem is greedy manabases, what I call trips (MMM) and squares (MMNN). If you need these on t3~4, you're often screwed. It's doable on later turns, but that's it. Even something like Divinity of Pride can be a problem in three-color.

Prophetic Prism is always useful in 3+ color decks with greedy manabases tho. Cheap, and it cantrips.
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