Smothering Tithe

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago


Tax effects and mana ramp effects are both great mechanics so rolling them together who wouldn't like to see that wrapped up in a bundle? Well, to be honest I think that Smothering Tithe is a very over hyped and over represented card that players too often put in more decks than its worth including it in. I figured I wanted to talk about this card a bit more in depth and where it belongs.

Good:
  • Fixing - when running very color intensive effects or low to the ground effects its great that you get to use only as much mana as you need with no over expenditure producing all colored mana. Some commanders like say Sisay, Weatherlight Captain need an abundance of colored mana and the fact that Smothering Tithe gives you colored mana to fix and fill with a commander like this can be huge.
  • Vs Draw - Obviously if someone is trying to draw a bunch of cards its going to trigger a lot more. The dream would be someone sitting on a bunch of Sphinx's Revelation / Blue Sun's Zenith when you have it in play.
  • Resource Disruption - It plays really well into Armageddon / Winter Orb / Tangle Wire kind of tactics. If your plan is to screw with resources its going to be effective in that it makes it hard to pay as well as slowing down the game to get extra value out of what you do have in play.
  • Artificer Abuse - When in an artificer based deck you might have things like Krark-Clan Ironworks that can get value beyond from artifacts.
Bad:
  • Annoyance - Asking "did you pay for that" at all times of the game gets old. It slows down games and annoys other players.
  • Value is based on opponents - Obviously it will always hit opponents but if opponents aren't playing draw heavy decks its going to get worse. Beyond that there are a lot of things that can put cards into hand that aren't technically drawing like Necropotence, Fact or Fiction, and Dig through Time.
  • Similar ramp - When comparing it against Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus in a lot of situations they can be similar in outcome. With a lot of decks I have seen Smothering Tithe generate 3-4 mana a turn rotation and while it can make more than that, unless your plan is to save them up for an X mana spell most decks generally will care more about the mana per turn that it makes rather than the stockpile potential. Beyond that though you can use Thran / Gilded the turns they enter for mana where as you have to wait on opponents with smothering.
In General:
Overall, I generally don't pay to stop treasure from being created. My mana is generally worth more than depriving a little bit from an opponent. Even when an opponent gets an early smothering tithe online generally speaking I wouldn't usually say its much different than an early solid mana stone. It actually makes them sort of have to play arch enemy because it is annoying everyone but I don't feel like what they get back for doing so is really that amazing. I get that early mana is great and I am not saying that this card is bad by any means but I feel like I have seen a lot of people hail this card as a white staple recently and I couldn't disagree more. If you put Gilded Lotus / Thran Dynamo in all of your decks thats fine, but I think that it should be considered as a very similar card to those and played far more selectively than it currently is. Its nowhere near as good as Rhystic Study if you ask me.

So I guess lets hear from everyone else. I consider myself to be someone who plays a hell of a lot of white magic but I almost never play this card. I guess it could be a meta thing possibly or what colors paired / strategy of the deck. Where do people play this card and what are the usual experience with it?
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Post by Serenade » 3 years ago

We were playing it in every white deck earlier this year. It became too annoying. Maybe we hit too many Sol Ring —> STithe starts, but the constant asking slowed the game down and was not fun.

So we house-banned it and Rhystic Study for similar reasons. Both performed well...but took away from our overall enjoyment of playing.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I mostly agree with your positive assessments above. I think is has its place in the right decks, but I also feel that it tends to be in decks that don't need it. As for the negatives, I don't think I really agree.

The annoying factor is there, but it isn't quite as bad as Rhystic Study since the trigger is basically tied to a specific action that isn't quite as intrusive. And yeah it is based on number of opponents, but even that isn't exactly a high hurdle. I don't think that it being able to be gotten around is necessarily a problem. Except with Necropotence in your examples, Tithe still triggers for the draw for turn as well as other draws. I think the draw for turn is enough.

Maybe it is similar to other ramp? I think the ones you mentioned are more consistent but their ceiling is also much lower (though, their floor is much higher). I think I like Tithe mostly because it allows for an accumulation of those treasures and getting rid of Tithe doesn't get rid of the treasures. Though, it does mean you won't get any more. This is probably the most relevant of the negatives so it depends on what you want out of the card. I play it in Gisela after it was suggested a couple times and it has done good work. It hasn't been an all star by any means, but has done good work and has done more than I think something like Thran Dynamo would do.

I do think part of the power of the card is because it is fairly often that players have the same mindset you do. That is, they aren't going to pay for it either. The cost is higher for them and it is not quite as bad as giving the Tithe player a card like Study does so it is easier for people to just ignore it. I have had people pay for it, but it tends to not happen too often. So, I agree it is not nearly as good as Study.

I think if I were to put a mono-white deck together again, it likely finds its way into the deck. White does have other ramp though, but I think it is useful enough to warrant a spot.

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
In General:
Overall, I generally don't pay to stop treasure from being created. My mana is generally worth more than depriving a little bit from an opponent. Even when an opponent gets an early smothering tithe online generally speaking I wouldn't usually say its much different than an early solid mana stone. It actually makes them sort of have to play arch enemy because it is annoying everyone but I don't feel like what they get back for doing so is really that amazing. I get that early mana is great and I am not saying that this card is bad by any means but I feel like I have seen a lot of people hail this card as a white staple recently and I couldn't disagree more. If you put Gilded Lotus / Thran Dynamo in all of your decks thats fine, but I think that it should be considered as a very similar card to those and played far more selectively than it currently is. Its nowhere near as good as Rhystic Study if you ask me.
I disagree, I think it is roughly as strong as Rhystic study and that it is way way stronger than Thran Dynamo. First off, Windfall/Wheel of Fortune exist and those synergies alone skyrocket Smothering Tithe's powerlevel. Even if you're not being degenerate like that treasures are immensely more valuable than straight mana. There's a bunch of artifact synergies, token synergies, and sacrifice synergies that Smothering Tithe can support. Evaluating it as only a mana rock, often times opponents will draw more than 1 card a turn which makes smothering tithe produce significantly more mana than Thran Dynamo. Ignoring all of that being an enchantment makes Smothering Tithe significantly more difficult to interact with than something like Thran Dynamo and creating treasures allows you to store up your mana for a big turn instead of a use it or lose it situation which increases your flexibility.

The more efficient and cutthroat everyone's deck becomes the more Rhystic Study pulls ahead. If everyone is casting 3 spells a turn Rhystic Study is a mad draw engine. If everyone is durdling a bit more and being less perfectly mana-efficient they're more likely to have spare mana left over to pay for its tax. Almost no one ever pays for Smothering Tithe when I've seen I cast. In my experience people are also way more scared of someone drawing a million cards off Rhystic Study than someone generating a million treasures off of Smothering Tithe.

If your games are ending turn 5-8, Rhystic Study will be better. If your games are ending turn 10+, Smothering Tithe is likely comparably strong.

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Post by JWK » 3 years ago

Smothering Tithe is a very good card, and it is one of the best white cards printed in a long time.

That said, I think it has been somewhat oversold. I do not agree that it belongs in every white (or Boros) deck. In some, I think it is actually counterproductive.

As just one example, I don't think Tithe is a good card in fast Voltron decks featuring cheap commanders like Rorgragh, Akiri, etc. In those decks, tempo is very important. You need to get your commander(s) out, get them suited up and get them swinging. Playing a 4-mana enchantment that won't likely net you anything you can use until your next turn is not what those sorts of decks want to do. Waiting that extra turn increases the odds your opponents will create unfavorable situations for your attackers, and that will just get worse as they play bigger threats, start playing boardwipes, etc.

Again, not saying it is bad. It is very, very good. I just don't think it is good enough to warrant its relative degree of ubiquity.
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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

I think the card is very good, and a deck would have to be pretty niche for me to consider not using it. As @JWK said, I wouldn't run it in a low-to-the-ground Voltron deck, I also wouldn't run it in a G/x deck with heavy ramp already included. That being said, the few places where I WOULDN'T include it remind me of the few decks where I wouln't use a Sol Ring. And if a card, if possible, should be used nearly as much as Sol Ring, then it's amazing as heck and probably worth the hype.

Anecdotally, I've found the card to perform very strong as well. I hate playing against it because it's a massive advantage for the player that uses it. The biggest downside I see is that it paints the player casting it as a big enemy. My table tries to kill the player that uses it, much like a T1 Sol Ring or an early Rhystic Study,

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

As you well know I've taken it out of decks that by rights should have benefitted from it (namely Bruna) but ended up having it be entirely superfluous to requirement, so I think its value on board is relatively variable. Ultimately I think its always going to shine best in a wheels/group hug shell, but it does very well in decks that are mana thirsty or starved for ramp. It does nicely in my Varina, Lich Queen build. where there are very few options for additional land drops and most of my attention goes towards colour fixing. There are also wheels in the deck, but it's far from a theme.

I think the grizzle of constant reminders is neither here nor there. I say basically this to everyone that runs Rhystic or Tithe (politely at first, but more blunt if required): 'pipe down, I know about your trigger I will let you know if I pay'. No muss, no fuss. If they persist in badgering I'll make an issue but it's fairly rare, and when I say 'I'll let you know' most times the rest of the table will jump on board with that too.

In terms of actual gameplay feedback, in the right place it is very good. Finding the right place for it is the trick. I think it's a valuable tool to the white mage who in terms of new card and mechanic developments generally gets the scraps from WotC (they seem to really struggle with what identity they want white to have, and it shows in the general utility of cards and what they deem appropriate for fixing ramp/draw in the colour - Cartographer's Hawk is a prime example), but a white mage can make do with careful brewing and this one is far from a must-include, which is nice because it's like $30 NZD now.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

I think you're leaving it out of the obvious symmetrical draw synergy. Any symmetrical draw-7 is going to break this card wide open.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I get the wheel thing but like, is everyone building these wheel decks to use it? I would say on average I might see one wheel in like 5-10 games of commander as an average. I guess if you build to do that its fine but I have always viewed wheels as like sort of a red tactic and if you are in WR.... well its not exactly a great color combo. I guess you can do UW wheels but I have always viewed wheels in blue as something you only do in crazy combo / tempo decks. If you aren't excessively low to the ground with it often times just using blue's actual card draw is more reliable.

Wheel tactics don't really have much for commanders that are in white either. Lots of the wheel tactics seem to be UR based so its confusing to hear people talk about how crazy wheels are with Smothering Tithe when I see very very very little crossover in the tactics to Jeskai / WR / UW on average.

I am not saying wheels are bad or anything, just that..... they don't seem to really overlap with white all that naturally. There is probably some outlier I am not considering but offhand Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is probably the closest commander I can come up with.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

The important thing with this card is that you need to be able to take advantage of both sides and not be screwed if an opponent makes a choice you would prefer they not.

If your deck can't really take advantage of people playing a little slower because your curve is too high, for example, it's bad. This card benefits playing a large variety of mana costs and lots of instant and flash effects.

Too many sorceries often means you get your treasures swept before you can use them.

I like it pretty well in Ephara.

That said, I would shed no tears if they got rid of these effects for their unfortunate effect on the game pace. I've long been an advocate of banning Rhystic for example.

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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

In a vacuum, Smothering Tithe is a higher-variance Thran Dynamo.

Pros:
Generates colored mana
Generates tokens and sacrifice triggers
Is an enchantment
Scales with number of opponents (better with more)
Scales with additional opponent card draw (degenerately so in conjunction with wheels)
Can bank mana across multiple turns

Cons:
Doesn't provide mana back immediately
Doesn't work with untap effects
Opponents can pay to negate extra mana
Scales with number of opponents (worse with less)
Will usually draw more attention / hate

Assuming you aren't using it in conjunction with wheels, I'd say that Smothering Tithe is merely strong but fair. There are lots of decks that don't want Thran Dynamo, especially for decks with lower curves (which aggressive white decks often are). On the other hand, if you're trying to hardcast angels like Avacyn, Angel of Hope, you're going to want every ramp effect you can get, so Smothering Tithe is an excellent option to have in your toolbox.

Another card I would compare Smothering Tithe to is Harmonize - I almost never see anyone run Concentrate, but I used to see Harmonize be pretty widely played just because it was a unique effect. Similarly, I would say that a lot of why Smothering Tithe is so widely played is because it's a unique effect that white doesn't usually have access to. I don't think it's the strongest ramp effect available - I don't know that I would run it over Cultivate or Skyshroud Claim in a Selesnya deck - but there aren't a lot of options for non-green decks in general. If / when white gets more ramp options, I expect it to fall off a bit. Unfortunately, the new white ramp options that have been printed are... very much a crapshoot in terms of playability, which means that may take a while.

....I did have one memorable six player game where I had Smothering Tithe out when a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician player ran out a Winter Orb and Strip Mine'd a bunch of my lands. I think I won that game, but it was definitely an outlier in terms of Smothering Tithe performance.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Wheel tactics don't really have much for commanders that are in white either. Lots of the wheel tactics seem to be UR based so its confusing to hear people talk about how crazy wheels are with Smothering Tithe when I see very very very little crossover in the tactics to Jeskai / WR / UW on average.
I mostly think of this in terms of Esper. If you play Notion Thief, Alms Collector and Smothering Tithe, it's probably worth it to play Commit/Memory, Days Undoing, (obviously Timetwister and Time Spiral if they're in your budget) etc.

Outside of 'wheel' decks, I still think it's a solid choice. Basically, (IME) the players who draw the most cards tend to win games. If you're not getting great value out of it and your deck leverages some card draw, I don't think your opponents are going to be able to win, just because you'll have more answers than they have threats and more threats than they have answers. If they are drawing a lot, you're getting paid.

I think this is why the card is flat in mono-white decks: mono-white might want the ramp (it clearly has better options), but it doesn't have card draw like b/u/g colours do, so your opponents might grant you a million treasures, but you won't be able to leverage it. Once you add blue or black (or green, I guess, since green does everything now) to the mix, you can start a draw arms race that you win because you're getting paid for their draws while they still have to contend with tempo.

tl;dr: Presuming you have decent card draw. If you draw more than your opponent, you win with card advantage. If your opponent matches or exceeds your draw, Smothering Tithe gives you enough free mana tempo to win. Maybe. IMO, it's totally usable without a proactive gameplan (involving wheels or whatever), but obviously shines with wheels.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Too many sorceries often means you get your treasures swept before you can use them.
Just use your treasures on counterspells, forehead ;)

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I get the wheel thing but like, is everyone building these wheel decks to use it? I would say on average I might see one wheel in like 5-10 games of commander as an average. I guess if you build to do that its fine but I have always viewed wheels as like sort of a red tactic and if you are in WR.... well its not exactly a great color combo. I guess you can do UW wheels but I have always viewed wheels in blue as something you only do in crazy combo / tempo decks. If you aren't excessively low to the ground with it often times just using blue's actual card draw is more reliable.

Wheel tactics don't really have much for commanders that are in white either. Lots of the wheel tactics seem to be UR based so its confusing to hear people talk about how crazy wheels are with Smothering Tithe when I see very very very little crossover in the tactics to Jeskai / WR / UW on average.
In my metagame there is a man addicted to Mystical Tutor, Time Spiral and Windfall. His main wincondition was having those cards and a lower curve than everyone else. That's probably biased my experience towards expecting wheels.

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
I think this is why the card is flat in mono-white decks: mono-white might want the ramp (it clearly has better options), but it doesn't have card draw like b/u/g colours do, so your opponents might grant you a million treasures, but you won't be able to leverage it. Once you add blue or black (or green, I guess, since green does everything now) to the mix, you can start a draw arms race that you win because you're getting paid for their draws while they still have to contend with tempo.

tl;dr: Presuming you have decent card draw. If you draw more than your opponent, you win with card advantage. If your opponent matches or exceeds your draw, Smothering Tithe gives you enough free mana tempo to win. Maybe. IMO, it's totally usable without a proactive gameplan (involving wheels or whatever), but obviously shines with wheels.
This is much closer to my experience with the card.

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Post by onering » 3 years ago

With dynamo and lotus, if you can't use all the Mana it could produce that turn cycle, the Mana is gone. With Tithe, the treasures stick around until you need them. The pros generally outweigh the cons. Really, without untap effects, tithe is just better except when you have a play involving the Mana from dynamo or lotus the turn you play them. Tithe is typically 3 bankable Mana a turn, and it can get better based not only on what you play, but what your opponents play.

In comparison to rhystic study, people are far less likely to pay the tithe. For study, the question is do you pay 1 to stop your opponent from drawing 1. Unless you absolutely need to play on curve, it's an easy answer. Even in multiplayer, 1 Mana in exchange for putting an opponent down 1 card is a bargain you should almost always take. With Tithe, the question is do you want to spend 2 Mana to prevent your opponent from getting 1 Mana. That's a bad deal in a vacuum. When everyone at the table pays, it matters, but if just one person is paying then they are hurting themselves most while the tithe player still gets ahead. Half the table paying for study, or the whole table paying half the time, does a lot to restrain the study player while not harming the people paying much. Half the table paying the tithe only slow the tithe player a little while hurting the people paying more. Hell, even the whole table paying still hurts the payers as much as it does tithes controller. In a 4 player game with everyone just drawing for turn, it denies everyone else 2 Mana a turn but denies the tither player 3 extra Mana over their normal, so in essence they get to play with their normal amount of Mana and everyone else plays 2 behind. If nobody pays, everyone gets to play on curve but the tithe player gets significant ramp. It's thus less obvious in any situation what the right play is (other than removing tithe).

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Post by NZB2323 » 3 years ago

I have 6 white decks and only run it in 1 of those decks. I run it in my Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal deck because both of my commanders create card draw, and I need mana to cast both commanders, play cards that they put in my hand, and recast them from the command zone, if necessary. The deck never has enough mana, and Smothering Tithe has synergy with other cards in the deck, like Enlightened Tutor, Academy Rector, and Hall of Heliod's Generosity.

I don't run it in my Captain Sisay or Morophon, the Boundless deck because those decks have access to green and they have enough ramp, plus I don't like it in Sisay where I try and limit the number of cards that cost the same amount as my commander. It's the same reason I don't play it in my Kaalia of the Vast deck. If I have 4 mana, I want to cast Kaalia, and if I have Kaalia swinging I don't need ramp. In Edgar Markov I play very little ramp as the deck want to be aggro and turn 4 I'd rather play a card like Purphoros, God of the Forge or a vampire lord.

I'm still on the fence about running it in Ghen, Arcanum Weaver. It's an enchantment deck, but it just doesn't blow me away like Parallax Wave or Stranglehold. I probably should run it. I guess Ghen could put Smothering Tithe on the battlefield at instant speed, and could put Smothering tithe in the graveyard at instant speed with cards like Thrill of Possibility or Sinister Concoction, so you could put Smothering Tithe on the battlefield in response to an opponent drawing a bunch of cards.
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Post by Cyberium » 3 years ago

We need more cards like this for white. (And the obligated "Hullbreacher should've been white" statement.)

As the other post in the forum suggested, white ought to have more effects that "nerf" popular EDH plays such as landfall, since people are so weak-stomached for MLD. Hell, white used to be a lot more restrictive in the past. Why can't they print a card with Balance ideology, but instead of discard/LD it let you draw and create treasures? In mono-white's current state, I think it's completely fair to have a WWW Balance/Cataclysm/Etc.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I don't know about Hullbreacher being white, but they definitely seem more proactive about expanding or pushing the limits of other colors, but cite color pie restrictions when it comes to helping out white. Red has gone all in on impulsive draw and black can destroy enchantments now, but god forbid Keeper of the Accord be able to fetch Hallowed Fountain.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know about Hullbreacher being white, but they definitely seem more proactive about expanding or pushing the limits of other colors, but cite color pie restrictions when it comes to helping out white. Red has gone all in on impulsive draw and black can destroy enchantments now, but god forbid Keeper of the Accord be able to fetch Hallowed Fountain.
6-7 years ago this whole song and dance was exactly the same, except it was red that was "too restricted by color pie" because they hadn't printed impulsive draw yet/had only printed a handful of cards which were clearly not enough. I'm sure in another 7 years we'll be talking about how black needs card draw without life loss, or needs unrestricted ramp, because the constant train of complaints cannot cease. They're finding new solutions, they're going to roll them out over time, and it will be a process. Just like how red didn't instantly become a powerhouse with the printing of Chandra, Pyromaster, don't expect things to change overnight.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 3 years ago

It's like any rhystic, but I like to think it's the best with Winter Orb.

Regarding Keeper of the Accord normally I'd agree, Every color gets a worse (more conditonal, higher mana cost, whatever) Nature's Lore, ideally entering tapped to mark it as worse than green, but repeatable and modal means it has to be restricted in other ways or end up costing eleventy-one mana.
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