Mono-Black Control in EDH

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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

Okay, I tried reworking the list and make it more creature-focused while keeping the overall curve not too high. I'm just not sure how efficient it is now. Sadly, I had to get rid of Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire to make room for the rest. I just ended up building it almost like usual, so any advice is welcome on how to make it more powerful. I'm still pondering about replacing a ramp card with a Sword of Feast and Famine.
Xiahou Dun - By function

Non-board Removal (4)

Approximate Total Cost:

EDIT :
- Removed Liliana of the Dark Realms for Grave Pact
- Removed Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder for Syr Konrad, the Grim
Last edited by Dragoon 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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not-a-cube
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Post by not-a-cube » 3 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, that's typically what I used to do when playing mono-black (except for the infinite combo part). I just have to pay attention to my curve here, since the decks I usually tend to build are likely too slow for the decks that will be facing against this one.
Yeah, Chainer is more of an 8 cmc end-game commander, but I usually don't pay full price for the other big creatures and it suits the medium-power games I prefer. I might make a lower-to-the-ground value engines version someday with Yawgmoth, Krav, and stuff like Pawn of Ulamog/Weaponcraft Enthusiast, cheap recursion, etc.
I've never considered Krav, the Unredeemed for my Chainer, Dementia Master deck, for some reason I always think of him as orzhov, but the lifegain would probably be very good. I'm going to make for some edits to add him.
EDH Decks:
Queen Marchesa
Chainer, Dementia Master
Will Kenrith
Bruna, the fading light

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Scarab Feast - its cool being an instant but I don't know that I would prefer to have it over Nihil Spellbomb which cantrips and hits someone's grave. There are so many good graveyard removal tools these days that I don't know if Scarab Feast wins on my list over a lot of the others. I guess its ok against combo graveyard shenanigans but Crypt Incursion is also usually higher on my list.

Syr Konrad, the Grim - I don't know that its my favorite Blood Artist effect. The effect on him is decent but he costs a lot and he only works towards killing opponents and not towards keeping you alive. I often opt for Blood Artist due to being lower cost and keeping you alive over going for killing players. Keep in mind with mono black that staying alive to continue to do things is usually fairly strong.

Mana Crypt - This might be sort of controversial but...... I don't really like crypt in more control strategies which mono black tends to fall into. I get that ramp is great and crypt in general is great. I just end up playing more towards the long game with mono black which makes that potential bolt every 1/2 turn a bit threatening over a longer game. You can lifegain offset it, I just think it also puts you under some level of pressure that I often don't feel neccessary to do when playing for the long game in a mono black deck. This opinion is likely not to be held by many others but I like crypt a LOT more when playing a deck where I plan to win quickly. Its still a great card though, I just don't put it everywhere even if I have copies.

Bog Witch / Dark Ritual / Bubbling Muck - These cards tend to be used a lot more by all in combo decks like Ad Nauseam. I just don't think they do enough unless you are shredding through your entire deck like a madman or trying to combo win very quickly. They tend to require a lot more card draw / card advantage to maintain and while these are very good competative cards, I think that if you aren't on average winning on turns 1-5 I wouldn't normally suggest going in on these cards as you will require a lot more card advantage in your deck to make up for the tempo ramp that they represent.

Ok, now maybe for some suggestions:
  • Skullclamp - If you are going to go into sacing recursive creatures and tokens I think you might want a clamp for some sweet draw.
  • Pawn of Ulamog - he is cheap and similar to Pitiless Plunderer but the fact that its mana and things to sac are both nice. I actually like it more than Plunderer in a lot of cases due to them being bodies that trigger things like Grave Pact.
  • Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - grave hate for opponents, a nice lifelink body, and a token producer. Man it is spicy if you can combo it with Grave Pact.
  • Woe Strider - A sac outlet that comes with extra bodies and is sticky as hell.
  • Sengir Autocrat - four bodies for 4 mana all being black could be useful. I like that its cheap to cast and the bodies / mana ratio is great.
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Scarab Feast - its cool being an instant but I don't know that I would prefer to have it over Nihil Spellbomb which cantrips and hits someone's grave. There are so many good graveyard removal tools these days that I don't know if Scarab Feast wins on my list over a lot of the others. I guess its ok against combo graveyard shenanigans but Crypt Incursion is also usually higher on my list.]
I really want to have instant speed graveyard hate if possible, preferably black so that I can recur it with Xiahou Dun. I was pondering for a while between Scarab Feast and Crypt Incursion but being able to stop non-creature recursion is definitely big. It stops Eternal Witness, Archaeomancer and Crucible of Worlds shenanigans quite well, and those are not rare cards.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Syr Konrad, the Grim - I don't know that its my favorite Blood Artist effect. The effect on him is decent but he costs a lot and he only works towards killing opponents and not towards keeping you alive. I often opt for Blood Artist due to being lower cost and keeping you alive over going for killing players. Keep in mind with mono black that staying alive to continue to do things is usually fairly strong.
I might try to find some room for Blood Artist or Zulaport Cutthroat elsewhere. I know that I am playing the long run here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will always be the best choice to prolong the game. For example, there's a Rashmi, Eternities Crafter deck, a Muzzio, Visionary Architect deck and a Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck in my meta that would likely beat me in the longer game, so having options to close out the game quickly seems good to me. Also, Syr Konrad, the Grim is pulling double duty when looping creatures with Victimize and Living Death, triggering both on creatures dying and coming back, and the mill effect is a decent mana sink.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mana Crypt - This might be sort of controversial but...... I don't really like crypt in more control strategies which mono black tends to fall into. I get that ramp is great and crypt in general is great. I just end up playing more towards the long game with mono black which makes that potential bolt every 1/2 turn a bit threatening over a longer game. You can lifegain offset it, I just think it also puts you under some level of pressure that I often don't feel neccessary to do when playing for the long game in a mono black deck. This opinion is likely not to be held by many others but I like crypt a LOT more when playing a deck where I plan to win quickly. Its still a great card though, I just don't put it everywhere even if I have copies.
It is a good point and probably comes down to personal preference. In my experience, mana rocks don't stay long enough on the board for the damage to really matter. That makes me think I forgot to include Wayfarer's Bauble.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Bog Witch / Dark Ritual / Bubbling Muck - These cards tend to be used a lot more by all in combo decks like Ad Nauseam. I just don't think they do enough unless you are shredding through your entire deck like a madman or trying to combo win very quickly. They tend to require a lot more card draw / card advantage to maintain and while these are very good competative cards, I think that if you aren't on average winning on turns 1-5 I wouldn't normally suggest going in on these cards as you will require a lot more card advantage in your deck to make up for the tempo ramp that they represent.
Hmm, I might be blinded by turn 1 Necropotence, which has definitely won games. It is true that Dark Ritual doesn't probably fit here, I was looking for black ramp cards that don't cost too much mana. Bog Witch seems definitely at home though, discarding creatures to set up Victimize or Living Death seems worth it, and it works wonderfully well with Chainer, Dementia Master. It can also allow you to play "at flash speed" with Corpse Dance. For Bubbling Muck, I just want to try it out at least once, since I've heard nothing but good things about it, and it does allow for some explosive turns, which isn't necessarily incompatible with our tactics here.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Skullclamp - If you are going to go into sacing recursive creatures and tokens I think you might want a clamp for some sweet draw.
True, I do want it, that card is a staple for a reason. I just don't want too much of my draw to be dependent on creatures dying and it can't be easily brought back with Xiahou Dun. I probably have to rethink my draw package.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Pawn of Ulamog - he is cheap and similar to Pitiless Plunderer but the fact that its mana and things to sac are both nice. I actually like it more than Plunderer in a lot of cases due to them being bodies that trigger things like Grave Pact.
The mana being colourless and only working for nontokens is a bit of a bummer though, as it is much more difficult to go infinite with him, which is why I've given the edge to Pitiless Plunderer. He is high on my maybeboard list though, I'd love to make some room for him.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - grave hate for opponents, a nice lifelink body, and a token producer. Man it is spicy if you can combo it with Grave Pact.
Good catch, I completely forgot about him! Argh, the cuts are difficult.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Woe Strider - A sac outlet that comes with extra bodies and is sticky as hell.
A free sac outlet is definitely good but it can't sac itself for protection against exile, only brings one body and escape looks a lot worse when I can potentially recur everything in my deck. On top of that, scry 1 is definitely less interesting than mana or cards.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Sengir Autocrat - four bodies for 4 mana all being black could be useful. I like that its cheap to cast and the bodies / mana ratio is great.
Yeah, he's also high in my list. I ended up putting Abhorrent Overlord and Chittering Witch as they provide value beside the bodies, while the tokens produced by Ophiomancer and Bitterblossom have useful keywords. If I need one more token producer though, he might make the cut.

---

Okay so I will replace Dark Ritual by Wayfarer's Bauble and I need to make room for (ideally): Since we aim for longer games anyway, should I cut some ramp to put more draw? I also have a soft spot for Liliana of the Dark Realms so if I can fit her back in, I would be delighted.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I have never thought much of Grim Tutor to be honest. Sure, its just one more mana on Demonic Tutor but it reminds me too much of Beseech the Queen in mono black which I think is a very boarderline on the playability scale. Grim is probably a touch stronger than Beseech but honestly not enough that I am excited to see it included.

I get the whole "gotcha" idea with Faerie Macabre but...... is that really better than just dropping a Soul-Guide Lantern in? I think you are going a little extreme on the whole idea that you have to be able to recur everything.

Priest of Forgotten Gods - I LOVE this card. But I will be the first to also admit that its a standard and draft level of card. With multiple opponents and the lack of haste as well as how many token decks there are out there, its beyond fragile and in my opinion you really want your edicts to be gotcha effects not forecast them.

Feed the Swarm - In my opinion, its better to accept that you suck against enchantments. If you want another Oblivion Stone like effect consider Boompile but I think this effect is somewhat poor. You have tutors in a pinch and you have the O Stone and Meteor Golem, I think just accept that sometimes you have to leave enchantments for someone else to kill or power through ignoring them. Sorcery speed creature kill is usually underwhelming.

Ravenous Chupacabra - I am not a huge fan but I guess the other question is if it wouldn't be better to run Noxious Gearhulk or Cavalier of Night. I get that Chupacabra costs less but the body is a complete throw away. To be honest, I am not crazy about any of them but I think its at least important to ask if its better to get a better body and some lifegain / recursion out of the deal if you are going to run any of them.

Profane Command - This card is really inefficient. I get the whole 6 mana rez commander and maybe kill a creature thing but really thats kind of extremely poor creature removal and its going to annoy a lot of people. I honestly don't care for Fortuitous Find or Grim Discovery either to be honest. To me this feels like spinning the wheels without doing anything really. These cards are also kind of graveyard centric which a lot of your deck already is and they aren't that efficient or strong. Sometimes when my commander is already in the graveyard I will make some attempts to not go too deep on caring about the graveyard due to that. If someone drops a T1 Scrabbling Claws for instance it can be very hard if you have too much that is redundantly reliant on the grave.

Mind Twist - This effect is very strong. My issue is more that if everyone at the table is playing on the same level then hitting one player with this isn't really that great. Sure it screws them over but you spent a turn where you didn't interact with the board and had to proactively screw someone over ahead of time. If you draw it and the board is already strong it might also not do much other than make some people mad at you. Its a good card, I just think it has more use in 1v1 games or possibly in games against more combo centric metas. The problem is, if you are in a combo centric meta you probably don't want to be playing mono black. I usually value 3 of my opponents cards to one of my own (in a turn rotation three opponents draw a card per one of yours) so assuming you play this for 4 mana I would consider the three cards that one player discards to be worth about the one card I used, except that it also costs you a card. I prefer instead to run Syphon Mind (it has both negative hand size to all opponents and a positive draw for you) or Arterial Flow (multiple cards from each opponent). Assuming you are playing a 4 player FFA Arterial Flow has the effect of Mind Twist spread out on each opponent but its also worth a 7 mana spell for three mana even if it isn't random I prefer to hit each opponent than to try to selectively pre issue hit someone with a full hand haymaker like this. Personally I would go with Syphon Mind or just drop this slot entirely though to be honest.
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I have never thought much of Grim Tutor to be honest. Sure, its just one more mana on Demonic Tutor but it reminds me too much of Beseech the Queen in mono black which I think is a very boarderline on the playability scale. Grim is probably a touch stronger than Beseech but honestly not enough that I am excited to see it included.
Well, what else is out there? Entomb and Diabolic Intent require more setup, and pretty much all the other tutors cost more mana upfront. Beseech the Queen sucks because you have to reveal the card and it is quite bad early game.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
I get the whole "gotcha" idea with Faerie Macabre but...... is that really better than just dropping a Soul-Guide Lantern in? I think you are going a little extreme on the whole idea that you have to be able to recur everything.
Maybe I'm overevaluating it, it's just that sorcery speed graveyard removal has never really performed well against the more powerful decks of my meta. If you proactively get rid of it, you are also down a card vs everybody else, whereas with Faerie Macabre, I can at least screw one opponent. If I don't need to remove a graveyard, then it's also a body that can fuel my engines.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Priest of Forgotten Gods - I LOVE this card. But I will be the first to also admit that its a standard and draft level of card. With multiple opponents and the lack of haste as well as how many token decks there are out there, its beyond fragile and in my opinion you really want your edicts to be gotcha effects not forecast them.
I don't know, I get that the edict effect is weak but it's still there, and getting mana and a card still looks very good. I would agree about the lack of haste though. Also, there aren't a ton of token decks in my meta, and against token decks, it might still be better than Plaguecrafter.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Feed the Swarm - In my opinion, its better to accept that you suck against enchantments. If you want another Oblivion Stone like effect consider Boompile but I think this effect is somewhat poor. You have tutors in a pinch and you have the O Stone and Meteor Golem, I think just accept that sometimes you have to leave enchantments for someone else to kill or power through ignoring them. Sorcery speed creature kill is usually underwhelming.
I will have to disagree on that regard. Bad removal is better than nothing, I certainly don't want to rely on my opponents to deal with something that might be problematic only for me. What about Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void for example? If I'm the only one heavily relying on my graveyard, nobody is going to remove it for me.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Ravenous Chupacabra - I am not a huge fan but I guess the other question is if it wouldn't be better to run Noxious Gearhulk or Cavalier of Night. I get that Chupacabra costs less but the body is a complete throw away. To be honest, I am not crazy about any of them but I think its at least important to ask if its better to get a better body and some lifegain / recursion out of the deal if you are going to run any of them.
I love Noxious Gearhulk but I think the lesser CMC is definitely a huge factor here. Sure, lifegain is nice, but I don't want to pay a premium for removing just one creature. Also, the more powerful the decks I face, the smaller the creatures tend to be (not sure if that's the correct way to phrase it in English). I'm intrigued by Cavalier of Night, I don't like the fact that I need another creature to make it work, but the dies trigger might be worth it. I think I'll test it over the chupacabra!
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Profane Command - This card is really inefficient. I get the whole 6 mana rez commander and maybe kill a creature thing but really thats kind of extremely poor creature removal and its going to annoy a lot of people. I honestly don't care for Fortuitous Find or Grim Discovery either to be honest. To me this feels like spinning the wheels without doing anything really. These cards are also kind of graveyard centric which a lot of your deck already is and they aren't that efficient or strong. Sometimes when my commander is already in the graveyard I will make some attempts to not go too deep on caring about the graveyard due to that. If someone drops a T1 Scrabbling Claws for instance it can be very hard if you have too much that is redundantly reliant on the grave.
Well, the whole point of playing Xiahou Dun is to use those interactions and recursions to play a more grindy game. Profane Command might be used to finish off an opponent, kill a creature, reanimate something or even going for an alpha strike (even if that last one is highly unlikely). That versatility is definitely something to consider. Grim Discovery can help bring me back Cabal Coffers or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as they will surely be targeted by the Strip Mines and Wastelands running rampant. Fortuitous Find can bring back key pieces like Rings of Brighthearth or Oblivion Stone and even combo pieces like Phyrexian Altar. It gives the deck more resiliency overall. To be honest, if I were to cut those three cards, I think I might as well switch Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed for Chainer, Dementia Master. I might still end up doing that in the future, but I at least want to try with Xiahou Dun because it is such an unusual general!
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mind Twist - This effect is very strong. My issue is more that if everyone at the table is playing on the same level then hitting one player with this isn't really that great. Sure it screws them over but you spent a turn where you didn't interact with the board and had to proactively screw someone over ahead of time. If you draw it and the board is already strong it might also not do much other than make some people mad at you. Its a good card, I just think it has more use in 1v1 games or possibly in games against more combo centric metas. The problem is, if you are in a combo centric meta you probably don't want to be playing mono black. I usually value 3 of my opponents cards to one of my own (in a turn rotation three opponents draw a card per one of yours) so assuming you play this for 4 mana I would consider the three cards that one player discards to be worth about the one card I used, except that it also costs you a card. I prefer instead to run Syphon Mind (it has both negative hand size to all opponents and a positive draw for you) or Arterial Flow (multiple cards from each opponent). Assuming you are playing a 4 player FFA Arterial Flow has the effect of Mind Twist spread out on each opponent but its also worth a 7 mana spell for three mana even if it isn't random I prefer to hit each opponent than to try to selectively pre issue hit someone with a full hand haymaker like this. Personally I would go with Syphon Mind or just drop this slot entirely though to be honest.
I understand your point, I usually stay away from discard effects unless I go hammer with them, but @benjameenbear recommended me to use one piece of discard, and @GloriousGoose's Erebos primer kept insisting on their value. I would also argue that random discard is definitely more powerful than normal group discard, I vastly prefer screwing one opponent than just mildly annoy all of them. It's also way better from a political point of view since discard tends to get heavily hated, and I prefer pissing off only one opponent at a time. :P

Its only real rival in my book at the moment is Sadistic Hypnotist, which trades the random discard for repeatability and synergy.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

I have played a fair amount of mono-black as well. My flagship deck is Chainer, Dementia Master, but that deck has also swapped out commanders to run Balthor the Defiled, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Braids, Cabal Minion (before banning), Kokusho, the Evening Star, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, and Griselbrand (prior to banning). I've also helmed decks with Toshiro Umezawa, Purraj of Urborg, and Seizan, Perverter of Truth. I think I'm forgetting a few as well.


Ramp

Mono-B definitely lends itself well to a control type, with lots of good removal, as well as draw and recursion to keep the value going. Ramp is by far the limiting factor. To that end, I find that the best non-green ramp card ever printed is Rings of Brighthearth. Paired with fetch-lands, every fetch turns into a rampant growth. It also powers up Wayfarer's Bauble, Burnished Hart, and Thawing Glaciers. Fetch lands also pair well with Crucible of Worlds for making continued land drops (and also Bloodghast, for free bodies). Returning to glaciers, it turns into ramp with Deserted Temple, which you'll want to run for your Cabal Coffers anyways (be aware that temple goes infinite with rings and coffers, if you are looking to avoid combos). Expedition Map can help find those key lands, assuming you aren't running a bunch of the black 'everything' tutors.

For additional mana boosts, there are a lot of ritual effects that you can harness. My Toshiro deck made good use of the straight up Dark Ritual variants, while for my creature based decks I found that profiting off of dies triggers to be very nice, so Pawn of Ulamog and Sifter of Skulls were useful for my death loops. Pitiless Plunderer now joins those ranks as well.

Crucible also plays well with Buried Ruins, as they will protect each other. If you are worried about protecting coffers, you can also run Petrified Field, which can return coffers, and if you have Rings out, return itself as well.

Lithoform Engine can be an alternate Rings as well. While it's more expensive and is not repeatable, being able to copy triggered abilities, or even make an extra token of something you are casting can be quite potent.

---

Jumping into the recent discussions, here's a few thoughts:


Graveyard Hate

Black has so many options, but even in Toshiro I found the GY spells to be too lackluster. Those I did play was more for the draw. Black has excellent recurable and reusable grave hate. First off, I'll add my vote to the previous ones that Scrabbling Claws, Phyrexian Furnace are both great early for keeping yards pruned, and can cantrip to keep your deck lean. Nihil Spellbomb has always been fantastic, and Soul-Guide Lantern is an excellent addition to the line up. If you really want to leverage dies themes, than I should point out that Salvaging Station has worked wonders in my Toshiro deck, though I do have to warn that it does take up a fair amount of deck slots. You typically want about 9-10 baubles to make it worthwhile, although I'd typically say that 3 of the above GY Hate, Wayfarers, Conjurer's Bauble, and Executioner's Capsule go a long way to getting you there. There are several ways for the station to turn every death into mana, life, cards, or more removal.

Secondly, black has several of the best GY hate creatures around. Withered Wretch remains the straight up staple, though I am rather partial to Nezumi Graverobber // Nighteyes the Desecrator. Tymaret, Chosen from Death adds to that lineup as well. Agent of Erebos has been useful in several lineups as a more blunt hammer to the problem as well.

You also have Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds that can fit into the land slots, for free additional slots.


Tutors

I don't really understand the massive dislike of Beseech the Queen. Unless you are playing full combo, or tutoring turns in advance for answers that you then proceed to sandbag for turns on end, it's not that big a deal. Likewise with the land limitation. Unless you're playing full on Animate Dead reanimator, you're probably not tutoring for 8 drops on turn 2, and if you were doing that, there are other tutors you'd run first. If I'm burning a tutor that early in the game, there are typically only two things I'm looking for: Ramp, or Draw - those will cost three or less. Triple black is annoying, sure, but not really a massive hindrance in mono-b.

Don't forget transmute cards as well. They can be a bit more limiting, but I have had high success with Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither in my Chainer deck. Being able to rez them helps (with House Guard being a mediocre sac outlet), but I had a stacked 4 slot to go with them, able to get a variety of draw, ramp, and removal options. The three slot is often very valuable as well, so I can see Dimir Machinations run literally only for the transmute. 3 slot gets you some powerful early game cards such as Necropotence, Rings of Brighthearth, Crucible of Worlds, etc... There are also plenty of removal options, and even wraths with Toxic Deluge and Dead of Winter.

While some people like Rune-Scarred Demon, my favored of this slot for reanimating as a creature comes down to Sidisi, Undead Vizier.


Aristocrats

Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Falkenrath Noble, etc are very effective - but they lead to a very repeatable game style. The deck gets optimized towards that one singular game path - not necessarily a bad thing, but it can get repetitive and perhaps even a bit boring over time. Especially if you 'combo' it onto the back of Living Death, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, and death->mana things.
escape looks a lot worse when I can potentially recur everything in my deck.
Be careful of getting too stuck in this mentality. Just because you can recur anything doesn't mean you have the resources to recur everything. There will always be cards that are past the point of usefulness in the game, or cards that are simply lower on the priority to return compared to other options. If you have 5+ creatures in your graveyard, there's probably a few that are at the bottom of the pile in terms of value. Don't be afraid to burn off useless resources - you'll find they'll just sit there anyways until someone burns your GY whole.
ISB wrote:Ravenous Chupacabra - I am not a huge fan but I guess the other question is if it wouldn't be better to run Noxious Gearhulk or Cavalier of Night.
Chupacabra is... ok. I went more with Fleshbag Marauder, Merciless Executioner, and Slum Reaper (transmute and transfigure target) effects myself, since I was looping more and could then hit all opponents. They also conveniently put themselves into the graveyard. Those tend to be less good against token strategies though, but that's what Massacre Wurm was for. I do like the Cavalier a lot though. The lifelink is a lot more relevant than you first think.
Mind Twist - This effect is very strong.
This is a very polarizing effect. It can be the source of a lot of feel-bads for some groups. Since Chainer was my 'powered up' deck, I personally ran mindslicer for this slot, but it alternated as to whether or not it was a part of the list, depending on where my group was at.

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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
I have played a fair amount of mono-black as well. My flagship deck is Chainer, Dementia Master, but that deck has also swapped out commanders to run Balthor the Defiled, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Braids, Cabal Minion (before banning), Kokusho, the Evening Star, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, and Griselbrand (prior to banning). I've also helmed decks with Toshiro Umezawa, Purraj of Urborg, and Seizan, Perverter of Truth. I think I'm forgetting a few as well.
What were the biggest differences between the Chainer, Dementia Master version and the Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed version?
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Ramp

Mono-B definitely lends itself well to a control type, with lots of good removal, as well as draw and recursion to keep the value going. Ramp is by far the limiting factor. To that end, I find that the best non-green ramp card ever printed is Rings of Brighthearth. Paired with fetch-lands, every fetch turns into a rampant growth. It also powers up Wayfarer's Bauble, Burnished Hart, and Thawing Glaciers. Fetch lands also pair well with Crucible of Worlds for making continued land drops (and also Bloodghast, for free bodies). Returning to glaciers, it turns into ramp with Deserted Temple, which you'll want to run for your Cabal Coffers anyways (be aware that temple goes infinite with rings and coffers, if you are looking to avoid combos). Expedition Map can help find those key lands, assuming you aren't running a bunch of the black 'everything' tutors.
I thought of fetches + Crucible of Worlds but those are used in other decks right now, so that's why only Rings of Brighthearth is there for the moment. I had good experiences with Burnished Hart and Solemn Simulacrum in mono-black in the past, I'm just afraid those value engines might be a bit too slow for the more powerful decks of my meta. Those decks can usually end the game by turn 8. That's also why I have avoided Thawing Glaciers. I don't want to include Deserted Temple specifically because it's a three card combo with Rings of Brighthearth and either Cabal Coffers, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Crypt of Agadeem. I also considered Expedition Map but I already have 4 black tutors, which I think is enough.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
For additional mana boosts, there are a lot of ritual effects that you can harness. My Toshiro deck made good use of the straight up Dark Ritual variants, while for my creature based decks I found that profiting off of dies triggers to be very nice, so Pawn of Ulamog and Sifter of Skulls were useful for my death loops. Pitiless Plunderer now joins those ranks as well.
I really need to make room for Pawn of Ulamog, is it an error to consider it as a ramp card? It's less reliable but it is what it basically does.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Crucible also plays well with Buried Ruins, as they will protect each other. If you are worried about protecting coffers, you can also run Petrified Field, which can return coffers, and if you have Rings out, return itself as well.
I tried to not go too heavy on the colourless lands, I chose to go with Grim Discovery and Fortuitous Find since those can be reused with Xiahou Dun, and bring Xiahou Dun back to my hand as well.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Lithoform Engine can be an alternate Rings as well. While it's more expensive and is not repeatable, being able to copy triggered abilities, or even make an extra token of something you are casting can be quite potent.
I forgot about that card, wouldn't it be too slow though?
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Graveyard Hate

Black has so many options, but even in Toshiro I found the GY spells to be too lackluster. Those I did play was more for the draw. Black has excellent recurable and reusable grave hate. First off, I'll add my vote to the previous ones that Scrabbling Claws, Phyrexian Furnace are both great early for keeping yards pruned, and can cantrip to keep your deck lean. Nihil Spellbomb has always been fantastic, and Soul-Guide Lantern is an excellent addition to the line up. If you really want to leverage dies themes, than I should point out that Salvaging Station has worked wonders in my Toshiro deck, though I do have to warn that it does take up a fair amount of deck slots. You typically want about 9-10 baubles to make it worthwhile, although I'd typically say that 3 of the above GY Hate, Wayfarers, Conjurer's Bauble, and Executioner's Capsule go a long way to getting you there. There are several ways for the station to turn every death into mana, life, cards, or more removal.
While I enjoyed playing Salvaging Station in Glissa, the Traitor, I don't think I want it here, it kind of feels "off-flavor".
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Secondly, black has several of the best GY hate creatures around. Withered Wretch remains the straight up staple, though I am rather partial to Nezumi Graverobber // Nighteyes the Desecrator. Tymaret, Chosen from Death adds to that lineup as well. Agent of Erebos has been useful in several lineups as a more blunt hammer to the problem as well.
I enjoyed those cards in the past as well, my main problem with them is that they need to be on the board for them to do something, and they need you to keep mana open at all times. Most of the time, if I really need graveyard hate, it's because there is one crucial turn where somebody suddenly goes infinite with Archaeomancer and Time Warp or Woodfall Primus and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or other stuff like that. I can't run counterspells, so having at least 1 piece of instant graveyard hate is definitely worth something. I might end up swapping Scarab Feast for Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet though, as I really want the additional synergy, I hope that won't come back to bite me.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
You also have Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds that can fit into the land slots, for free additional slots.
I considered Scavenger Grounds but between the mana being colourless and the fact that it nukes my own graveyard as well, I've decided against it.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Tutors

Don't forget transmute cards as well. They can be a bit more limiting, but I have had high success with Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither in my Chainer deck. Being able to rez them helps (with House Guard being a mediocre sac outlet), but I had a stacked 4 slot to go with them, able to get a variety of draw, ramp, and removal options. The three slot is often very valuable as well, so I can see Dimir Machinations run literally only for the transmute. 3 slot gets you some powerful early game cards such as Necropotence, Rings of Brighthearth, Crucible of Worlds, etc... There are also plenty of removal options, and even wraths with Toxic Deluge and Dead of Winter.
I love transmute as well, especially Dimir House Guard and Shred Memory, but I think Grim Tutor is still better and four tutors should be enough. If I need more though, I will probably include some of them in the list!
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
While some people like Rune-Scarred Demon, my favored of this slot for reanimating as a creature comes down to Sidisi, Undead Vizier.
Same, Sidisi, Undead Vizier can put itself back to the bin, which I find more valuable than a big body for more mana.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Aristocrats

Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Falkenrath Noble, etc are very effective - but they lead to a very repeatable game style. The deck gets optimized towards that one singular game path - not necessarily a bad thing, but it can get repetitive and perhaps even a bit boring over time. Especially if you 'combo' it onto the back of Living Death, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, and death->mana things.
Yes, I am aware of that. I tend to enjoy more diverse builds as well, but if I want to compete against more powerful decks, I don't think I really have a choice but to streamline my strategy.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
escape looks a lot worse when I can potentially recur everything in my deck.
Be careful of getting too stuck in this mentality. Just because you can recur anything doesn't mean you have the resources to recur everything. There will always be cards that are past the point of usefulness in the game, or cards that are simply lower on the priority to return compared to other options. If you have 5+ creatures in your graveyard, there's probably a few that are at the bottom of the pile in terms of value. Don't be afraid to burn off useless resources - you'll find they'll just sit there anyways until someone burns your GY whole.
That is definitely one of my problems. Although useless creatures are still creatures, and if I want to go infinite with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Phyrexian Altar and Living Death, I will need bodies. It's not a huge deal breaker but I don't think it makes enough of an argument here in favour of the inclusion of Woe Strider.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
ISB wrote:Ravenous Chupacabra - I am not a huge fan but I guess the other question is if it wouldn't be better to run Noxious Gearhulk or Cavalier of Night.
Chupacabra is... ok. I went more with Fleshbag Marauder, Merciless Executioner, and Slum Reaper (transmute and transfigure target) effects myself, since I was looping more and could then hit all opponents. They also conveniently put themselves into the graveyard. Those tend to be less good against token strategies though, but that's what Massacre Wurm was for. I do like the Cavalier a lot though. The lifelink is a lot more relevant than you first think.
I will definitely swap Ravenous Chupacabra for Cavalier of Night. I would like to make room for Massacre Wurm as well but 6 CMC is a lot, and it's not as useful if there's no token deck at the table.
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Mind Twist - This effect is very strong.
This is a very polarizing effect. It can be the source of a lot of feel-bads for some groups. Since Chainer was my 'powered up' deck, I personally ran mindslicer for this slot, but it alternated as to whether or not it was a part of the list, depending on where my group was at.
I considered Mindslicer as well, but I really dislike discarding my whole hand, it's too risky for my tastes.

Thank you for your suggestions!

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 years ago

I AM SUMMONED

I'm glad you found my primr useful. It never gained a lot of traction either here or on MTGS but it was a labor of love.

I haven't been too active on this forum since COVID-19 effectively ended playing paper Magic indefinitely, though I'm still brewing and theorycrafting lists. I don't have the time at the moment unfortunately, but once I'm able to read the impressively long posts in this thread I'm more than happy to give some advice based on my experiences with MBC.

There was a fantastic mono-black thread on MTGS, and this one has even better and more thorough responses, even if I strongly disagree with some of them (particularly on pinpoint discard). I look forward to contributing to the thread.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
3 years ago
since COVID-19 effectively ended playing paper Magic
Check out spelltable dot com. It's at times janky but generally works quite well if you can get a group together. I've played with a buddy several states away using it.

I've been following this thread for ideas with my Ayara, First of Locthwain deck. I'm considering converting it to a Yawgmoth, Thran Physician deck.

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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
Same, Sidisi, Undead Vizier can put itself back to the bin, which I find more valuable than a big body for more mana.
Definitely depends on your needs based on your Plan (which, I'll be honest, I've slightly lost track of and haven't read everything in this thread). She's definitely more broken with a commander like Chainer than RSD is. In my list, I haven't run either in a long time because I kinda like the near-death-digging-for-an-answer feeling than being able to tutor. But that's also a thematic "almost kill myself winning" thing for my deck.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
That is definitely one of my problems. Although useless creatures are still creatures, and if I want to go infinite with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Phyrexian Altar and Living Death, I will need bodies. It's not a huge deal breaker but I don't think it makes enough of an argument here in favour of the inclusion of Woe Strider.
Sometimes you just need bodies that make bodies for that.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I will definitely swap Ravenous Chupacabra for Cavalier of Night. I would like to make room for Massacre Wurm as well but 6 CMC is a lot, and it's not as useful if there's no token deck at the table.
I've liked Cavalier, too. But on the topic of Mass Wurm, while it can wreck a token deck outright, this is to me a corner case. What happens more often in my usage is turning the game around off of a board wipe or halting somebody else's sacrifice/reanimator plans because it'll hurt too much. And I've also killed the table with an XHD + Living Death loop with Wurm simply because they had creature cards and the ETBs weren't scary.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I considered Mindslicer as well, but I really dislike discarding my whole hand, it's too risky for my tastes.
Neither do the other players, usually. IMO, the actual problem is whether you can break that symmetry better than they can.

I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned Oppression.
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Post by Dragoon » 3 years ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
3 years ago
I AM SUMMONED

I'm glad you found my primr useful. It never gained a lot of traction either here or on MTGS but it was a labor of love.

I haven't been too active on this forum since COVID-19 effectively ended playing paper Magic indefinitely, though I'm still brewing and theorycrafting lists. I don't have the time at the moment unfortunately, but once I'm able to read the impressively long posts in this thread I'm more than happy to give some advice based on my experiences with MBC.

There was a fantastic mono-black thread on MTGS, and this one has even better and more thorough responses, even if I strongly disagree with some of them (particularly on pinpoint discard). I look forward to contributing to the thread.
Feel free to jump in! I enjoyed reading your primer, even though it looks like I'll end up building something completely different xD
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
I've liked Cavalier, too. But on the topic of Mass Wurm, while it can wreck a token deck outright, this is to me a corner case. What happens more often in my usage is turning the game around off of a board wipe or halting somebody else's sacrifice/reanimator plans because it'll hurt too much. And I've also killed the table with an XHD + Living Death loop with Wurm simply because they had creature cards and the ETBs weren't scary.
My only fear is that if my opponents aren't playing heavy creatures deck, it might not be as useful. And I want the 6 CMC cards to be as impactful as possible
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I considered Mindslicer as well, but I really dislike discarding my whole hand, it's too risky for my tastes.
Neither do the other players, usually. IMO, the actual problem is whether you can break that symmetry better than they can.
I might have more chances to break it since I can reuse my graveyard, but still ...
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned Oppression.
It doesn't look like I'll be going this direction, but I would have probably included it alongside Painful Quandary if I went heavy control with very few creatures.

----

So after some more reflection, I decided to listen to more of your advices and I swapped out Rise of the Dark Realms (the last Command Zone podcast was the final nail in its coffin). I also removed some of the mana rocks for more synergistic pieces of ramp. I think I'll try Sword of Feast and Famine but my fear is that outside of Xiahou Dun, there isn't really any good sword holder.

Xiahou Dun

Self-recur (2)

Approximate Total Cost:

What do you think? I would like to make room for Liliana of the Dark Realms if possible, if she's not too slow? The fact that she can either draw me a land or remove a creature seems good enough to me.

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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
My only fear is that if my opponents aren't playing heavy creatures deck, it might not be as useful. And I want the 6 CMC cards to be as impactful as possible
If you have a sustainable loop all it takes is one -- on the other hand you have the other aristocrat triggers that do the job and I've been: A. not using them (for reasons), which means Wurm's trigger is more significant in the list; B. in a medium-power meta where it's alright for the curve to be higher... and where it's okay to play with Clackbridge Troll to give opponents creatures to die to.:laugh:
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned Oppression.
It doesn't look like I'll be going this direction, but I would have probably included it alongside Painful Quandary if I went heavy control with very few creatures.
Painful Quandary really only becomes painful if they're low on life and can't afford the 5 or if there's another thing that makes the 5 life more painful than the 1 discard (Mindcrank or Exquisite Blood, for example).

So yeah, it can be very meta-dependent what things give your opponents more than you want to give them (like if the discard benefits them more than you), but some things might behave differently than you expect. Oppression was one of those things for me and became an amazing passive control toolbox that was a speedbump for most opponents and gave me a way to sandbag reanimation targets in my hand. And if I had an instant like Dark Ritual, it could be instant-speed discard.

I want to clarify, specifically about Oppression in this case, is not that I think it should be in your list, but that if you haven't used it before maybe give it a spin some time.

(Yes, it's one of my favorite 3 cmc cards, lol)
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Post by NZB2323 » 3 years ago

A big reason to play mono black is you can reanimate Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Turn one you can go Dark Ritual into Entomb and Animate Dead.

Ulamog isn't the cheapest card, but he can answer permanents like artifacts and enchantments that mono black can't answer, black has plenty of tutors to find him, and you can even hard cast him later in the game with something like cabal coffers if you don't want to cheat him into play with reanimation.

I also like Liliana's Triumph and Archfiend of Depravity.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

NZB2323 wrote:
3 years ago
if you don't want to cheat him into play with reanimation.
Worth noting that if you want two exile two permanents, you have to cast Ulamog.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Glad to help!
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
What were the biggest differences between the Chainer, Dementia Master version and the Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed version?
Oooh boy. The hard questions up first. Chainer is much faster at the combo - the reanimation is only 3 mana, and returns directly to play. This makes expensive creatures with powerful ETBs much better. Massacre Wurm is much easier to play with at 3 mana, rather than say, saccing XHD, paying 2 to Rings, and then needing to cast both. This lets Chainer loop creatures much more easily.

XHD provides much better safety to recur Living Death, tends to play a bit slower, and with more of a mindset of value. XHD felt better with being able to keep a fullhand of spells, giving more options on opposing turns, while in Chainer much of my interaction was based on having Chainer out and having a stocked GY. It was much more important to get Chainer to stick and protect him, while XHD could be used whenever.

If I were to rebuild XHD, I'd be tempted to pair him with a Toshiro Umezawa in the deck, and run instant heavy.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I really need to make room for Pawn of Ulamog, is it an error to consider it as a ramp card? It's less reliable but it is what it basically does.
That depends entirely on how proactively you are sacrificing things. If your deck is all about sac for profit mentality, and binning a bloodghast a couple of times a turn, then it's absolutely a ramp card. If you're holding back for your payoff turn, or just letting things die on blocks - I'd view it as more of a combo card.

In the realm of Living Death loops, it's great as it drops the cost of LD to only the colored mana, and then also provides a tone of extra bodies for the aristocrats.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
Lithoform Engine can be an alternate Rings as well. While it's more expensive and is not repeatable, being able to copy triggered abilities, or even make an extra token of something you are casting can be quite potent.
I forgot about that card, wouldn't it be too slow though?
Rings costs 3. Lithoform costs 4. Early on you're likely not going to be copying multiple abilities in a turn, so the tap isn't a huge deal. I haven't played it enough to see how the 1 mana difference really feels, but my gut feeling is that 1 mana won't break it, especially considering potential future uses. I use the ability copy as the baseline for what I want, and then the other two options are just bonus flexibility. Who knows, maybe I will want to copy a Tragic Slip ...
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I will definitely swap Ravenous Chupacabra for Cavalier of Night. I would like to make room for Massacre Wurm as well but 6 CMC is a lot, and it's not as useful if there's no token deck at the table.
Massacre Wurm is still useful even with no token deck at the table. I recured it repeatedly as another boardwipe creature, though Chainer does that much cheaper than XHD.
Dragoon wrote:
3 years ago
I considered Mindslicer as well, but I really dislike discarding my whole hand, it's too risky for my tastes.
In Chainer, I didn't mind having no hand, because all my mana could go into Chainer, and I could bring back creatures that would rapidly refill my hand (like Disciple of Bolas).

The same should be true in XHD. Nuke the hands, then return a Promise of Power or something. You should have by far the better tools to recover and break the symmetry. And if you don't... well, don't cast the Mindslicer until you maneuver yourself into a position where you get the best deal of it.

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