Update from Rules Committee re: The Walking Dead Cards

[Outcryqq]

Didn't see this posted in this forum yet. Link: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... king-dead/

TLDR: Secret Lair: The Walking Dead cards will not be preemptively banned in commander.

Their post:
"We're not going to bury the lede here. We're not banning the cards from Secret Lair: The Walking Dead. We understand that this won't sit well with some folks; we have spent a lot of the last few days listening to a wide variety of opinions, and we want to thank everyone for taking the time to share their thoughts. It was, at times, quite overwhelming. It's clear that this is an issue that many people are passionate about.

Our decision doesn't reflect an endorsement of these cards, but what we believe is best for Commander in the long run. If you'd like to understand how we arrived at this decision, we encourage you to read on.

We identified three major concerns during the course of these discussions, and we'll address each and how they relate to Commander below. They are:

1. The availability of these cards is problematic
2. The existence of non-Magic IPs on cards should be discouraged
3. Negan is a dubious character.

There's no support in the Commander Philosophy Document for banning these cards. They certainly present no mechanical difficulties, and taken simply as cards, don't come close to fitting any criteria we have for banning. However, as we are always seeking to improve the document, we discussed whether banning these cards could fit under new philosophical criteria and whether using the banlist in this way was appropriate.

CARD AVAILABILITY

A concern of many players is that these cards would not be widely available, and for some countries, only available through third-party sellers. They worry that this model will be repeated in the future. We've heard you loud and clear on this issue. Because the cards are mechanically unique, this is the major problem most folks have. We wish that all of our friends around the globe had access to these cards. However, the RC of its own accord can't solve that problem. What we can do—what we already have done—is add our voice to yours. Since this issue broke, we've been in contact with well-placed people at Wizards of the Coast to make sure that they understand your displeasure and where it comes from, as well as urging that they work towards a solution.

While we understand why people are concerned about such limited availability, we don't believe that the problem applies to Commander in the same way it does to tournament formats. Successful tournament formats require generally equal and complete access to cards. But, one of the themes that we've reiterated since the earliest days of the format is that you don't need access to every card in order to have fun playing Commander. The focus of Commander being on non-tournament play, plus the enormous cardpool available where almost everything goes, means that unique cards floating around don't present the same kind of problem. The stakes in a Commander game is the fun of the participants, and that doesn't require all the cards.

A problem we see with adopting a ban philosophy based on card availability is explaining it down the road. If, a year from now, someone stumbles across a copy of one of these cards, tries to use it and discovers that it is banned in Commander, they will ask why. And the explanation is unsatisfactory: people didn't like how they were allocated. This does not make a lot of sense to the person who is holding the card, and who doesn't own many other cards that may be out of reach for them. We want people to be able to play the cards they own, and only resort to bans when it's problematic for the health of the format, not the wider ecosystem.

These cards are in no way a threat to the health of Commander. In fact, we see it just the opposite. We're the only format that could bear the weight of this kind of experimentation. This is the format in which Crab Tribal is just as valid as Blood Pod. Adding a few quirky cards that aren't ubiquitously available doesn't threaten that.

One of the calls from the community was that we should ban these cards to "send a signal" to Wizards of the Coast for a "blatantly commercial act". First of all, we don't think it's appropriate to tell them how to run their business; that's way outside the scope of our charter. Second, the banned list isn't the appropriate vehicle to voice our displeasure over something, nor is using it as punishment. The banned list is an abstract construct to corporate decision-makers. The right path to walk is the one we've gone down: real change happens from having real conversations with real people, which we have been doing since the news broke. Finally, attempting to send such a signal would be doomed to failure. It will not have the effect that people hope. The primary goal of these cards is almost certainly new-player acquisition. Wizards hopes to lure some Walking Dead fans into Magic and any interest from Commander players is just a small bonus. Banning the cards until functional reprints are available doesn't do much either.

NON-MAGIC IP

Some folks simply don't like the idea of The Walking Dead crossing over into Magic, a modern IP breaking an immersion barrier. We understand that feeling (none of us care at all about The Walking Dead), but also realize that almost everyone has some universe for which they've dreamed of having Magic cards. We don't think it's productive to try to gatekeep that. If you dislike it, we support you not playing with the cards. Introduction of a different IP opens Commander to audiences who might not have ever heard of Magic or the format; we welcome the new friends we haven't yet met.

NEGAN

We've also heard some displeasure over the Negan character being on a card, given his (fictional) history of terrible actions. We are sympathetic to this, and did give some consideration to banning just that card. We chose not to because Negan is a villain, plain and simple. There's no implied endorsement, sanitation or glorification of his actions. In that, he's no different than other villains already in the Magic universe, even though as portrayed by an actor it seems closer to "real world" discomfort. No one is suggesting that by putting him on a card he should be idealized, any more so than Nicol Bolas or Yawgmoth. We will use this as an opportunity to remind each other to respect other players' boundaries. Being empathic and accommodating is vital for a healthy gaming community; being considerate of other players makes us all better.

IN CONCLUSION

The community outcry over these cards did not go unheard. We used our relationship with people inside Wizards of the Coast to have an honest conversation about how and why so many of you felt betrayed by this process. One of the outcomes of that conversation is that they were supportive of whatever decision we made. We believe that conversation has had influence and they clearly understand the concerns. Thank you to everyone who has weighed in with their thoughts. We tried very hard to keep up with all of them, even as the Discord became overwhelming."

[Dunharrow]

100% in agreement with this statement

[BeneTleilax]

this proves the rc has sold the format. LIARS!

Infraction for flaming and spamming this sentiment across the forum - cryogen

[Ginuqu]

"We're the only format that could bear the weight of this kind of experimentation."

not exactly down with this! Someone remind them that casual play that isn't EDH still takes place. Sometimes. In small corners of dark rooms.

I think everything else is essentially solid, cos if you worry about this box set's availability then you have to worry about the game's entire distribution model and its a really big can of worms.

[pokken]

Thumbs up from me.

Let me know when you guys can't get all the Glenns you want on drop week. I doubt I will even order one because they're kinda weak.

[RxPhantom]

this proves the rc has sold the format. LIARS!

Care to explain your position? To me, this decision displays the kind of levelheadedness that I'd expect from the governing entity of the most popular format in Magic. Don't get me wrong, this product is problematic on several levels, but a ban from the RC would only serve as a (deserved, but petty) rebuke of WotC, but more importantly, a punishment to players who like and appreciate these cards.

[pokken]

"We're the only format that could bear the weight of this kind of experimentation."

They're not wrong. Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune and Gilded Drake (et al.) kinda set the precedent for very low supply really clutch cards that are legal in the format but somehow it exists and continues.

These cards are weaker, and in massively higher supply, so not even a comparison for impact.

[Ginuqu]

"We're the only format that could bear the weight of this kind of experimentation."

They're not wrong. Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune and Gilded Drake (et al.) kinda set the precedent for very low supply really clutch cards that are legal in the format but somehow it exists and continues.

These cards are weaker, and in massively higher supply, so not even a comparison for impact.

when you say "format", do you mean as it pertains to the top tier, competitive end? Cos um all those cards have existed in casual since 1998 perfectly happily

[pokken]

when you say "format", do you mean as it pertains to the top tier, competitive end? Cos um all those cards have existed in casual since 1998 perfectly happily

I honestly do not think kitchen table casual is a format worth thinking about in comparison to EDH or really any other format. It's just got nothing at all in common.

[ISBPathfinder]

I appreciate the RC putting in lots of hard work and listening to the players. Having contact with WoTC is also very welcomed. I really didn't expect this to go down any other way but I appreciate the long post and hard work put in by the RC.

[Treamayne]

Don't get me wrong, this product is problematic on several levels, but a ban from the RC would only serve as a (deserved, but petty) rebuke of WotC, but more importantly, a punishment to players who like and appreciate these cards.

I can't speak to what BeneTleilax meant, but I don't think a pre-emptive ban would be a petty response at all. There is a lot wrong with this release, and the RC is really the only WotC external entity that can advocate for the player base. The only language that a company will listen to is something that affects sales. Telling WotC that EDH would treat these cards as the silver bordered entities they should have been would be the only real way to get that message through in time for people to not shell out the cash to purchase, then losing out should one or more get banned in the future.

For years, the WotC model has shown that they don't want to listen to players (removing the mothership forums, removing the ability to respond to articles directly except by ignorable social media, removing the mtgcommunity website, etc.) and are happy to alienate existing players as long as they can draw in new players.

WotC has set a precedent that has the potential to cause many problems. I am happy the RC is in discussion with R&D, but I don't think the message will get through to corporate decision makers just through dialog.

I appreciate the RC's hard work, but I do feel this was the wrong decision. After all, knowing that a Forgotten Realms set is already planned just shows the company intends to continue down this path, and it's a path I no longer want to walk down with them.

[RxPhantom]

Don't get me wrong, this product is problematic on several levels, but a ban from the RC would only serve as a (deserved, but petty) rebuke of WotC, but more importantly, a punishment to players who like and appreciate these cards.

I can't speak to what BeneTleilax meant, but I don't think a pre-emptive ban would be a petty response at all. There is a lot wrong with this release, and the RC is really the only WotC external entity that can advocate for the player base. The only language that a company will listen to is something that affects sales. Telling WotC that EDH would treat these cards as the silver bordered entities they should have been would be the only real way to get that message through in time for people to not shell out the cash to purchase, then losing out should one or more get banned in the future.

For years, the WotC model has shown that they don't want to listen to players (removing the mothership forums, removing the ability to respond to articles directly except by ignorable social media, removing the mtgcommunity website, etc.) and are happy to alienate existing players as long as they can draw in new players.

WotC has set a precedent that has the potential to cause many problems. I am happy the RC is in discussion with R&D, but I don't think the message will get through to corporate decision makers just through dialog.

I appreciate the RC's hard work, but I do feel this was the wrong decision. After all, knowing that a Forgotten Realms set is already planned just shows the company intends to continue down this path, and it's a path I no longer want to walk down with them.

The problem is that the ban criteria as currently written do not support banning these cards. The RC's integrity was on the line here, and they made the best possible decision. BUT, in light of what is surely to be a series of products like this, I would advise the RC to consider adding a ban criterion to accommodate it in the future. If they're going to do it, and they should, they should do it right. Changing ban criteria shouldn't happen on the fly, but after a great deal of thoughtful consideration.

[Yatsufusa]

This will probably be my final thoughts of the entire situation and actually probably concerns more of my personal future outlook of the game than anything to do with the RC('s decision), but I need somewhere to compose my thoughts (and I'm no content creator with a channel of my own) and in recent years my overall interest in the game has dwindled, with this format itself being pretty much the last bastion.

First off, the direct response to the RC's decision: Not unexpected. I would like to say "but disappointed", but after re-assessing my personal future outlook of the game, I actually conclude I'm not actually disappointed either. At the same time though, the entirely of the format (which includes the RC since they're technically smaller than the format itself) pales to the outlook this Secret Lair/situation has wrought about, so it's more of a neutral "not unexpected because I know generally how the RC thinks and it usually aligns with mine" rather than "I support the RC wholeheartedly" kind of unexpected.

And align it does. This entire situation has truthfully been one escalated symptom of the franchise's changes over the past few recent years which I generally attribute to MTGArena, but it also presents a particular "changing/breaking point" for me since it particularly has surfaced.

I play quite a handful of other games and not the "traditional kind", due to my lifestyle I have a preference for the likes of mobile games (I've only ever owned one home console, my console lifestyle since young has been dominated by handhelds, so it sorta naturally chained onward). Now I know a lot of "traditional" gamers dislike mobile games (with pretty good reasons), but I've learnt many things from it, just like my other childhood gaming aspect consisting of card games have thought me the highly-valued art of monetary/resource discipline, which carried over to extreme efficiency to my mobile games. Which is why I always suspected Arena would be the start of many changes to the franchise overall and frankly the past few years have proven me right.

I could come up with an entire thesis if I ranted on, but let me boil it down to essence - mobile games align towards faster-paced. I've played Shadowverse and glimpsed a few other OCGs and they have been more most part faster than traditional old-school 60-card Magic (not counting the occasional breaks we had like Standard Affinity). When Arena came out and it evident they would pay more attention to it, I've always suspected the game (standard in particular) would go through a "quickening" alongside "power creep" because being in the "mobile" market (I know it wasn't exactly on mobile, but there was intent and the competitiveness for OCGs functionally made it mobile) meant you needed to catch attention, since they were after the new generation/market of players.

I was mostly right, the clash between old-school design and mobile-focused design created a rift and the wreck of a Standard for the past two years or so, except it was actually worse because they tried to "design for Commander" as well. It was evident in the design itself, things like Modal DFCs, mutate and ability tokens would have been thought of as "too complicated/too hard to keep track/manage" in old-school design were now considered "flashy and new ideas" because Arena's automations solved a lot of problems. Unfortunately one thing pretty unique to MTG was it's inability to nerf and I suspect that's why we have such a train of bans, because mobile-aligned design usually took a lot more power-risks because they had the nerf-hammer to fall back on. We even did it once - Companions.

I've never really liked Standard, so it was pretty easy for me to "nope out" at the very first sign (Arena itself being a thing), but it had impact over to other formats. Modern Horizons pretty clearly shook Modern and Eternal and soon after we even have Vintage being affected by Standard designs. I made my Modern Affinity thinking it would last short of the early rampant bannings, but it actually died out before that due to future designs instead, by the time the banning (Mox Opal) actually came, it was just an officiated funeral.

The RC is right, EDH is essentially the only format capable to tanking changes like that, although arguably with advent of "modern-day problem commanders" like Chulane & Golos, we're getting a few scars as well. EDH is essentially the last bastion of Magic for me (pre-releases/limited got less interesting over the years as they sized-down/restructured and COVID killed it) and in the recent few years I've already undertaken slowly transforming my collection into my "EDH vanity project". On an individual level I trade in older cards with value escalated due to lack of reprints for foil/bling versions of cards recently printed so I could technically expand my decks in the direction I want instead.

So why is this a turning point? Up to even this point, where I'm cornered to basically EDH but I was content with it, I valued the Magic brand. I was Vorthos, although recent wearing down from a poor-lore perspective revealed I was a Melvin-Vorthos (they are not exclusive, usually only Spike is), as poor as the lore itself was, at least rules themselves mechanically supported it, so the immersion factor was still there, just to a less-good story/experience.

That ended with this Secret Lair.

Negan was officially part of the rules (not that I actually know him, but I know where he is not from), Walkers have their own meaning in the comprehensive rules. The immersion is broken. In fairness it was always an illusion, I excused P3K and Arabian Nights because the game was in its infancy and they were classical enough to mold in. I could even prepare to excuse D&D/Forgotten Realms because it was easy to mold their exclusives (Beholders and the like) into our world. Godzilla mechanically never inserted themselves, they were just flavor text with alters.

Of all mobile games I do play a particular divisive subgenre called Gacha, a factor prevalent in that subgenre (but not exclusive) is collaboration with franchises for limited-time units. Before I rant off-topic again, back to essence - Magic: the Gathering has officially done the same thing. With the mobile games I play I accept it as the norm of the game I chose to play. With over a decade of Magic I was led to believe it wouldn't and I embraced my Vorthos (Melvin-Vorthos "compromise" later). Now that immersion is wholly broken, fully severed.

Am I going to say "No, this is not the Magic I wanted, I QUIT!"? No. To some degree I anticipated this (or bluntly I already "quit"), I streamlined my collection down to the one format I would stick with. I detached myself from pure Vorthos over the years due to both pragmatism and lore decay (Neheb on Kamigawa doesn't make too much sense) and I can detach one more tier. I do enjoy the sheer gameplay of EDH enough to do so (and will do so).

I'm not buying the TWD Secret Lair, but that's not of anger or disdain, but simply because the abilities don't fit me (also, the secretly choose part of Negan and memory-requirement of Rick is annoying since he doesn't use ability counters, which have mechanical implications). If they come out with either new cards that fit my decks or collaborate with a series I enjoy, I would get them, just like I how I get singles that interest me in sets.

But remember this, WotC - you sold the sanctity of the lore of your game. Only once is needed for none to be left. Magic: the Gathering as a brand is essentially moved to the same tier I consider the bulk of my mobile games to be. You might have made this as a calculated move to get more audience from people from that tier and honestly I will follow, because it would be hypocritical of me since I do partake in that tier quite plentifully. But at the same time you share the (crowded) pie with those games and during the times I look for immersion, you are no longer part of that tier of (less numerous) games I look for. When I split resources across each tier you get less in the pie and when I trim down spending/attention, you're up against more competition yourself.

In the aesthetics thread I mentioned I didn't really care for my deck being a Frankenstein of in-universe oddities due being tempered over the years. From now on it no longer cares about the Magic lore as much either. TWD just didn't make it because it didn't appeal from neither the mechanical aspect nor the flavor aspect. If they did a new mechanically-perfect-fit card I'd try it regardless of flavor and if they collaborated with my favorites I might find a way to squeeze it in. The Frankenstein just got even more mutated, for there is no more sanctity.

At the end of the day, despite EDH's popularity, if Hasbro/WotC wants to head down this direction and it does get the audience they want, EDH can actually be shunted aside. It's not in the responsibility of the RC to preserve the sanctity of lore of MTG (but it was for the aspects they themselves built, which was why I fought so hard for Iona's ban). People claim the RC "can speak" for the (2% online) community, but that's just them playing them up like a "WotC #2" illusion of power we never had, the same way people over at Gacha Hell (or MTG for that matter) think they're "investing" in the game and have "power".

As for the whole new-card-in-limited-run, it will just bite them back in the butt like Nexus of Fate did when they inevitably make the first mechanical mistake, but I don't see this TWD being the one doing it yet. Hopefully what feedback soft-power the RC has did slowpedal whatever clearly blatant plans WotC had (next year's set releases basically displayed it), but sanctity of lore is gone and MTG's lore is on now equal footing as those of Mobile Games. The RC could have maybe helped preserve the sanctity within the format for a while, but it would be an illusion since the Comprehensive Rules themselves are ruined and become less sustainable as more collabs roll in anyway.

Damn, I still ended writing a sub-gaming-biography of sorts despite trimming as much as I can, but I had to get each point across because my overall opinion is shaped by the combination of my experiences. Congratulations if you reached here reading everything. If you didn't (or did anyway), here's the more diluted extract: with the lore brought down, MTG to me is no longer "the (card) game", but just "a (card) game" among my games/entertainment.

Granted, functionally MTG itself for me has been reduced to EDH (and EDH now also being reduced to "a game" instead of "the game"), but I'm accepting of the fact that the RC can't really salvage it in the long-run either and I'll just digest the bitter pill and demote the game/format. Yes, EDH is considered of a lower caliber to me now, but it's not the RC's fault, it's a byproduct of MTG as a brand/game itself choosing to lower its own caliber.

[cryogen]

this proves the rc has sold the format. LIARS!

I want to address this comment. We understand that many players are upset about this decision and that many people thing that the Rules Committee is under the control of WotC. This sentiment has no basis in reality so if you feel that way and want to explain why you do, then do it respectfully and with something to back up your stance. Otherwise myself or another staff member will be infracting this for spam or flaming.

[onering]

This will probably be my final thoughts of the entire situation and actually probably concerns more of my personal future outlook of the game than anything to do with the RC('s decision), but I need somewhere to compose my thoughts (and I'm no content creator with a channel of my own) and in recent years my overall interest in the game has dwindled, with this format itself being pretty much the last bastion.

First off, the direct response to the RC's decision: Not unexpected. I would like to say "but disappointed", but after re-assessing my personal future outlook of the game, I actually conclude I'm not actually disappointed either. At the same time though, the entirely of the format (which includes the RC since they're technically smaller than the format itself) pales to the outlook this Secret Lair/situation has wrought about, so it's more of a neutral "not unexpected because I know generally how the RC thinks and it usually aligns with mine" rather than "I support the RC wholeheartedly" kind of unexpected.

And align it does. This entire situation has truthfully been one escalated symptom of the franchise's changes over the past few recent years which I generally attribute to MTGArena, but it also presents a particular "changing/breaking point" for me since it particularly has surfaced.

I play quite a handful of other games and not the "traditional kind", due to my lifestyle I have a preference for the likes of mobile games (I've only ever owned one home console, my console lifestyle since young has been dominated by handhelds, so it sorta naturally chained onward). Now I know a lot of "traditional" gamers dislike mobile games (with pretty good reasons), but I've learnt many things from it, just like my other childhood gaming aspect consisting of card games have thought me the highly-valued art of monetary/resource discipline, which carried over to extreme efficiency to my mobile games. Which is why I always suspected Arena would be the start of many changes to the franchise overall and frankly the past few years have proven me right.

I could come up with an entire thesis if I ranted on, but let me boil it down to essence - mobile games align towards faster-paced. I've played Shadowverse and glimpsed a few other OCGs and they have been more most part faster than traditional old-school 60-card Magic (not counting the occasional breaks we had like Standard Affinity). When Arena came out and it evident they would pay more attention to it, I've always suspected the game (standard in particular) would go through a "quickening" alongside "power creep" because being in the "mobile" market (I know it wasn't exactly on mobile, but there was intent and the competitiveness for OCGs functionally made it mobile) meant you needed to catch attention, since they were after the new generation/market of players.

I was mostly right, the clash between old-school design and mobile-focused design created a rift and the wreck of a Standard for the past two years or so, except it was actually worse because they tried to "design for Commander" as well. It was evident in the design itself, things like Modal DFCs, mutate and ability tokens would have been thought of as "too complicated/too hard to keep track/manage" in old-school design were now considered "flashy and new ideas" because Arena's automations solved a lot of problems. Unfortunately one thing pretty unique to MTG was it's inability to nerf and I suspect that's why we have such a train of bans, because mobile-aligned design usually took a lot more power-risks because they had the nerf-hammer to fall back on. We even did it once - Companions.

I've never really liked Standard, so it was pretty easy for me to "nope out" at the very first sign (Arena itself being a thing), but it had impact over to other formats. Modern Horizons pretty clearly shook Modern and Eternal and soon after we even have Vintage being affected by Standard designs. I made my Modern Affinity thinking it would last short of the early rampant bannings, but it actually died out before that due to future designs instead, by the time the banning (Mox Opal) actually came, it was just an officiated funeral.

The RC is right, EDH is essentially the only format capable to tanking changes like that, although arguably with advent of "modern-day problem commanders" like Chulane & Golos, we're getting a few scars as well. EDH is essentially the last bastion of Magic for me (pre-releases/limited got less interesting over the years as they sized-down/restructured and COVID killed it) and in the recent few years I've already undertaken slowly transforming my collection into my "EDH vanity project". On an individual level I trade in older cards with value escalated due to lack of reprints for foil/bling versions of cards recently printed so I could technically expand my decks in the direction I want instead.

So why is this a turning point? Up to even this point, where I'm cornered to basically EDH but I was content with it, I valued the Magic brand. I was Vorthos, although recent wearing down from a poor-lore perspective revealed I was a Melvin-Vorthos (they are not exclusive, usually only Spike is), as poor as the lore itself was, at least rules themselves mechanically supported it, so the immersion factor was still there, just to a less-good story/experience.

That ended with this Secret Lair.

Negan was officially part of the rules (not that I actually know him, but I know where he is not from), Walkers have their own meaning in the comprehensive rules. The immersion is broken. In fairness it was always an illusion, I excused P3K and Arabian Nights because the game was in its infancy and they were classical enough to mold in. I could even prepare to excuse D&D/Forgotten Realms because it was easy to mold their exclusives (Beholders and the like) into our world. Godzilla mechanically never inserted themselves, they were just flavor text with alters.

Of all mobile games I do play a particular divisive subgenre called Gacha, a factor prevalent in that subgenre (but not exclusive) is collaboration with franchises for limited-time units. Before I rant off-topic again, back to essence - Magic: the Gathering has officially done the same thing. With the mobile games I play I accept it as the norm of the game I chose to play. With over a decade of Magic I was led to believe it wouldn't and I embraced my Vorthos (Melvin-Vorthos "compromise" later). Now that immersion is wholly broken, fully severed.

Am I going to say "No, this is not the Magic I wanted, I QUIT!"? No. To some degree I anticipated this (or bluntly I already "quit"), I streamlined my collection down to the one format I would stick with. I detached myself from pure Vorthos over the years due to both pragmatism and lore decay (Neheb on Kamigawa doesn't make too much sense) and I can detach one more tier. I do enjoy the sheer gameplay of EDH enough to do so (and will do so).

I'm not buying the TWD Secret Lair, but that's not of anger or disdain, but simply because the abilities don't fit me (also, the secretly choose part of Negan and memory-requirement of Rick is annoying since he doesn't use ability counters, which have mechanical implications). If they come out with either new cards that fit my decks or collaborate with a series I enjoy, I would get them, just like I how I get singles that interest me in sets.

But remember this, WotC - you sold the sanctity of the lore of your game. Only once is needed for none to be left. Magic: the Gathering as a brand is essentially moved to the same tier I consider the bulk of my mobile games to be. You might have made this as a calculated move to get more audience from people from that tier and honestly I will follow, because it would be hypocritical of me since I do partake in that tier quite plentifully. But at the same time you share the (crowded) pie with those games and during the times I look for immersion, you are no longer part of that tier of (less numerous) games I look for. When I split resources across each tier you get less in the pie and when I trim down spending/attention, you're up against more competition yourself.

In the aesthetics thread I mentioned I didn't really care for my deck being a Frankenstein of in-universe oddities due being tempered over the years. From now on it no longer cares about the Magic lore as much either. TWD just didn't make it because it didn't appeal from neither the mechanical aspect nor the flavor aspect. If they did a new mechanically-perfect-fit card I'd try it regardless of flavor and if they collaborated with my favorites I might find a way to squeeze it in. The Frankenstein just got even more mutated, for there is no more sanctity.

At the end of the day, despite EDH's popularity, if Hasbro/WotC wants to head down this direction and it does get the audience they want, EDH can actually be shunted aside. It's not in the responsibility of the RC to preserve the sanctity of lore of MTG (but it was for the aspects they themselves built, which was why I fought so hard for Iona's ban). People claim the RC "can speak" for the (2% online) community, but that's just them playing them up like a "WotC #2" illusion of power we never had, the same way people over at Gacha Hell (or MTG for that matter) think they're "investing" in the game and have "power".

As for the whole new-card-in-limited-run, it will just bite them back in the butt like Nexus of Fate did when they inevitably make the first mechanical mistake, but I don't see this TWD being the one doing it yet. Hopefully what feedback soft-power the RC has did slowpedal whatever clearly blatant plans WotC had (next year's set releases basically displayed it), but sanctity of lore is gone and MTG's lore is on now equal footing as those of Mobile Games. The RC could have maybe helped preserve the sanctity within the format for a while, but it would be an illusion since the Comprehensive Rules themselves are ruined and become less sustainable as more collabs roll in anyway.

Damn, I still ended writing a sub-gaming-biography of sorts despite trimming as much as I can, but I had to get each point across because my overall opinion is shaped by the combination of my experiences. Congratulations if you reached here reading everything. If you didn't (or did anyway), here's the more diluted extract: with the lore brought down, MTG to me is no longer "the (card) game", but just "a (card) game" among my games/entertainment.

Granted, functionally MTG itself for me has been reduced to EDH (and EDH now also being reduced to "a game" instead of "the game"), but I'm accepting of the fact that the RC can't really salvage it in the long-run either and I'll just digest the bitter pill and demote the game/format. Yes, EDH is considered of a lower caliber to me now, but it's not the RC's fault, it's a byproduct of MTG as a brand/game itself choosing to lower its own caliber.

Hasbro is chasing the mobile game market, but they aren't going to succeed. It looks to me like a case of a company not understanding their niche. The mobile card games aren't just faster in their gameplay, they're faster in a quickly their popularity comes on and how quickly said popularity fades. Magic's strengths have always been in its complexity and its lore. Rather than lean into its strengths while shoring up its weaknesses a bit to dominate its niche and ensure continued long term profitability, it has chosen to chase higher profits in the short term by abandoning its niche and its strengths in favor of competing directly for the mobile market with companies that quite frankly know how to do it better and who can be more flexible. That's a recipe for long term disaster, as Magic will not beat the mobile natives at their own game, and abandoning their successful niche will undermine the games long term viability.

[Airi]

Even sitting on it for a day, I'm so deeply disappointed in the RC on this decision. They are the only people with the ability to actually stand up to WotC on this issue in a meaningful way, and they made a conscious choice not to, while simultaneously handing Wizards a huge win in terms of legality. Especially since parts of their announcement was nearly as tone deaf as the stream WotC hosted about the secret lair cards. "You don't need access to every card in order to have fun playing Commander. " Sure, but like, that's just glossing over why people are upset that if they want to use a unique commander, they've now got to cough up a not insignificant amount of money on a very short window, assuming they live somewhere that has the "privilege" of being able to obtain the cards. Even worse than that, the only way to even get to interact with the RC members prior to this announcement was to hope they saw a tweet of yours, or to interact behind a pay wall, which is disappointing in of itself.

Maybe it's too much of an ask to put this on the RC, but there's literally no other outs for us as players. I may have disagreed with a lot of their decisions over the course of my time in EDH, but no other action they've taken has had me straight up lose confidence in them.

At this point, I'm tired and maybe it's time to just hang up the game.

[Sinis]

Even sitting on it for a day, I'm so deeply disappointed in the RC on this decision. They are the only people with the ability to actually stand up to WotC on this issue in a meaningful way, and they made a conscious choice not to, while simultaneously handing Wizards a huge win in terms of legality. Especially since parts of their announcement was nearly as tone deaf as the stream WotC hosted about the secret lair cards. "You don't need access to every card in order to have fun playing Commander. " Sure, but like, that's just glossing over why people are upset that if they want to use a unique commander, they've now got to cough up a not insignificant amount of money on a very short window, assuming they live somewhere that has the "privilege" of being able to obtain the cards. Even worse than that, the only way to even get to interact with the RC members prior to this announcement was to hope they saw a tweet of yours, or to interact behind a pay wall, which is disappointing in of itself.

I think the RC is in a bad bind, here. If they get banned in the most popular format, there will be real backlash for the RC. Not in Wizards taking over the format or whatever, but, the opportunities for the RC to consult with Wizards will diminish.

Maybe it's too much of an ask to put this on the RC, but there's literally no other outs for us as players. I may have disagreed with a lot of their decisions over the course of my time in EDH, but no other action they've taken has had me straight up lose confidence in them.

I agree until the loss of confidence. I think it's a tough decision, and it's hard to justify bans because they don't like them, don't like what they stand for, or worst of all, that they're scarce (ban Mishra's Workshop when?)

At this point, I'm tired and maybe it's time to just hang up the game.

One of my friends did exactly this, and ngl, even though we've never played a game, I'd be sad to see you go.

[vandertroll]

The logic and all the premises behind RC decision is sound but:
what you didn't calculate is that by taking the "illogical" or knee-jerk course of action was the only way to send a message to the ones taking the decisions: management and not R&D. As @Yatsufusa pointed out, that was your chance to send a message that lore and universe aligned with the mechanics are the game's selling point and not flashy names and artwork.
Would it made any difference? Probably not, but you now put yourselves in a place that your motives and your ability to actually connect with the players are questioned by everyone.
Perhaps you feared that in this way you would lose control of format management and chose this over bigger upheavals of the rules in the future. But have this happened you should know that the majority of active EDH players online, the ones that have reach to persuade and inform others, would have followed you
.
I am used in being disappointed by WotC, the corporate entity, but I am deeply disappointed by RC, the entity that was comprised from longstanding players and judges.
This is getting very tiring, I think that after 21 years it's time to start phasing out (pun intended).

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Man, so I've been watching this unfold and I may just be some mook, but never before have I been more tempted to put up the cards and start doing that oil painting I always said I would try. Between Covid killing irl play for who-knows-how-long and the game design nosedive of the past 2 years, it's just more frustrating than it is fun IMHO.

It was a honor to be amongst you fine folks for this mtg journey.

[Treamayne]

MaRo's Non-answers:

Blogatog

Some Answers
I've gotten a number of design oriented questions over the last few days about The Walking Dead cards that just got answered on the stream, but as I know not everyone was able to see the stream, I thought I'd repeat the answers here (adding in a little of my perspective):

Why aren't these cards silver bordered?

Silver border means two things. 1) It's non-tournament legal, and 2) It doesn't do things we can do in black border (at least at the time of us printing the cards – Magic evolves over time, so silver bordered things can later get promoted into black border). We wanted these cards to be top-down designs of The Walking Dead characters that functioned like more normal black-bordered cards. In addition, there's one other issue (one that really bothers me to be honest). Silver-bordered cards are treated by some Magic players as being less than black bordered cards and thus have a stigma to them. Some players refuse to play with players that have silver-bordered cards in their deck. We didn't want players thinking these cards were something they couldn't play with.

Why don't these cards use the Godzilla "alternate skin" technology?

They kind of do, but not in the way we did them in Ikoria. That exact execution wasn't a good fit for the product. Unlike the Godzilla cards that were distributed inside of booster packs along with the rest of Ikoria, The Walking Dead cards are sold by themselves. That meant we wanted them to maximize their appeal as a box set. Putting extra names on them was aesthetically unattractive. That said, we did build in a way to do backwards version of the Godzilla skins. If needed, we can print a Magic IP version of these cards with a Magic name and creative concept/art. We wanted to make sure that these cards were reprintable if needed.

Won't that mean that players who own The Walking Dead cards can now play both versions in their deck?

No, it does not. The cards, in Oracle, would identify that they represent the same card and would be treated by deck building rules as if they were the same. Think of them as functioning identically to the Godzilla skins.

Are these characters now canon in Magic story?

No, they are not. The frames and triangle watermark specifically denote that they are not canon to the Magic universe. I will note that there are other cards with black borders (from the alternate reality of Planar Chaos) that are also not canon.

Aside from the fact that the silver bordered point 2 is either an epic typo or a deliberate evasion to obfuscate WotC's reasoning, this whole thing fails to pretend to be listening to the community. Note, there's a whole lot of "we can do this," but nowhere is there an admission that they hear the player bases concerns and will do something.

"Some players refuse to play with players that have silver-bordered cards in their deck. We didn't want players thinking these cards were something they couldn't play with."

Really? Then why was MLP and Transformers silver bordered? Of course something this outlandish deservers to be silver bordered. It should always default to "Everyone needs to agree to allow this" rather than "I'm allowed and you can't stop me."

Being silver bordered hasn't stopped people from playing augment and other cards/mechanics. it just means that the players that enjoy that sort of thing find playgroups of like minded people with which to play. Why not say what you really mean - silver bordered are not allowed on Arena and MTGO - and you really really wanted these cards in those venues to drive sales.

[cryogen]

I can actually respect the silver border part, at least half of it. Mechanically these cards are perfectly fine as-is in black border, so to make them silver goes against what it means to be silver border. However, just because you want people to play with them doesn't take into consideration that some people might not want to play AGAINST them.

[pokken]

I don't wanna play against Animar, Soul of Elements or someone's anime tiddies alter, that's the type of crap you just gotta rule -1

[Wallycaine]

Really? Then why was MLP and Transformers silver bordered? Of course something this outlandish deservers to be silver bordered. It should always default to "Everyone needs to agree to allow this" rather than "I'm allowed and you can't stop me."

If you actually look at those cards, you'd note that they went out of their way to ensure they were silver bordered mechanically as well. That approach works okay for toy franchises, where they can work in mechanical references, but even then the well was clearly running dry. Princess Twilight Sparkle was already edging close to just being a black border card, with only the nearly un-activatable "everypony wins the game" ability technically pushing it into silver border territory. If they wanted to continue creating these crossover products, they'd naturally have to move into black border design space, which presents the problems Maro laid out.

Being silver bordered hasn't stopped people from playing augment and other cards/mechanics. it just means that the players that enjoy that sort of thing find playgroups of like minded people with which to play. Why not say what you really mean - silver bordered are not allowed on Arena and MTGO - and you really really wanted these cards in those venues to drive sales.

Being Silver Bordered 110% has stopped people from playing Augment and other cards/mechanics. There's plenty of cute silver bordered cards that I would consider for my decks, but since I don't have a regular playgroup and don't want to have a discussion every time I sit down over whether or not I can play with my cards, I don't even consider playing them.

Saying that what they "really mean" is that silver bordered is not allowed on arena and MTGO is buck wild, considering the secret lair is available on neither of those.

[Card Slinger J]

Never thought I'd actually see the day that EDH / Commander would be in an existential crisis yet here we are in 2020 where Wizards of the Coast has managed to take advantage of running Standard to the ground through power creep and by suspending all In-Person Events due to the ongoing pandemic. The last line of defense for Local Game Stores (LGSs) are MTG players who actively show up to play EDH / Commander yet Wizards of the Coast went against the original premise of Secret Lair drops being reprints of old cards by selling original EDH / Commander cards direct-to-consumer instead of being widely available to the public.

Combine that with the Rules Committee's recent stance on the Walking Dead Secret Lairs and it sets up a very dangerous precedent for Paper Magic going forward. I can't even fathom how much money everyone's already invested in the EDH / Commander format especially for those who own 5-10+ EDH decks or Cure for the Common Game on YouTube who owns 500+ EDH decks just to try to break a Guinness World Record as admirable as that goal is. The situation has already gotten as far as Mitch from Commander's Quarters attempting to re-brand the format into "Captain".

We went from "Elder Dragon Highlander" (EDH) to Wizards of the Coast re-branding the format as "Commander" only to re-brand it a third time with "Captain" which is really nothing more than a reskinned Commander format with rules separate from what the Rules Committee and Wizards of the Coast say. Let's not kid ourselves here we ALL knew this day was coming but we didn't want to admit to it. Wizards of the Coast is just salty that a community based format like EDH / Commander has been doing better than Standard which they fail to take responsibility for.

[cryogen]

Well Mitch realized how bad his idea was and how hard it backfired on him. Captain is dead and the servers have been deleted.