What bothers you most about the Walking Dead commanders?

[DirkGently]

Maro tweeted that they could reprint these cards in the future using a different name and a different art.

"Could" and "Will" is a big gap.

I'll start spending money on magic again when these are confirmed to be in a magic-themed form, in a product available in LGSs at a reasonable price point. Whether that's as legendaries in a future set, commanders in a precon, or something else of similar value.

Until then, this is predatory behavior on WotC's part and I won't support it.

[toctheyounger]

So I've been thinking a lot about this recently, obviously. I see there being basically two main focuses of contention, which are roughly pts 1 and 2 on the RC's statement. The flavor of the product, and the distribution of the product. (Pt 3 I really couldn't care less about tbh, but I also don't see it being a major focus on the conversation)

So, starting with the problem of non-mtg flavored cards with a black border.

My initial inclination (and my first vote on the poll) was to vote for that option, but if I'm being honest I don't think that's true. Or at least it's not specific enough - because not only am I fine with P3K and arabian, but I actually love those sets. I love old cards that have real-world flavor text on them too, like the TS elliot wasteland. I'm not really a huge fan of the mtg lore - I like that it exists to give aesthetics to the cards, but I don't care to read any of the stories or anything. Yes, I think TWD is a garbage show with a garbage plot being handled badly by a garbage network, but mtg isn't exactly crushing it with incredible pathos or anything, especially not recently. Compared to the tragedy of darth bolas the wise, 3 kingdoms is way more engaging to me, not least because it has some history and truth to it.

My problem with having TWD on the cards is not one of black and white, but one of degrees. TWD has always felt like a heavily marketed show to me, a transparent product trying to sell itself as hard as possible even when it knows it isn't very good. Having it infringe upon my own hobbies feels like an invasion, partly because it is a modern show and all shows are commercial enterprises, but especially because of how I feel about TWD in particular. Flavor-wise, it's also got the too-modern problem, the too-close-to-the-real-world problem (P3K has this problem to an extent, but fantasies it up a bit at least, plus being more historical it's at least got the "swords" of "swords and sorcery"). But reimagine the product except with Game of Thrones instead, and if I'm being honest, it bothers me a lot less - at least in regards this element. Do I think it's tasteless to use TWD to sell magic cards and vice versa? Yes, absolutely, but I can't deny a certain degree of hypocrisy in that opinion. I, personally, dislike TWD, but there's nothing categorically bad about it necessarily. If TWD was a public domain work instead of a currently-marketed show, if the writing was less terrible, if it had fewer guns in it, I doubt I'd see the problem nearly as strongly.

Alright, so that's point one. Point two, the distribution.

Time to go into a bit of a rant. Or perhaps a ramble.

I think early magic was a lot like LEGOs. Here's a thing we created. It exists. Now use your imagination and build whatever you want with it! Some people will build a deck full of dragons, some people will build a deck that synergizes around artifacts, some people will build a deck with nothing but black lotuses, channels, and fireballs. It's an empty canvas, go nuts! And while of course iterations changed the extreme open-endedness of the original product, I think most earlier sets don't have an obvious vibe of pushing certain cards, but rather pushing the game as a whole. "This is a fun game with lots of unique possibilities to explore. Why not buy some random cards and see what you can create?"

I think the first big step downhill started with the introduction of planeswalkers and mythic rares. Because now wotc wasn't just selling the game, but they were marketing specific cards. "Look how powerful this card is. Why not buy some random cards and maybe you'll get one?" But I think it's been a gradual decline since then. At first I think the intent was for these new cards to fit into the model that already existed. But more and more, decks aren't just supplemented by chase mythics, but defined by them. And I think a lot of the fault lies in the popularity of commander as a format.

Commander is casual, so in theory there's no requirement to keep up with the meta by buying new cards. It's also not rotating, so again, no requirement to buy new cards. And unfortunately for WotC, commander has become more and more and MORE popular, to the point that it's swallowed a lot of the customer base - both existing and new - that might otherwise be playing standard. Simply offering a bunch of similarly-powered cards with interesting possibilities might catch some players' attention, but for those entrenched in their decks it's probably not going to get them to start spending much money. And meanwhile, they're constantly being pressured by Hasbro to produce more and more money, because capitalism sucks taints sometimes.

So they have to create cards to motivate the great unwashed masses of commander players to buy product. At first, commander precons with cards designed to appeal to commander players, and increasingly obvious designed-for-commander cards in standard sets, which are usually expensive and niche enough to avoid rocking the boat in other formats.

But this starts to get tricky because they really need to keep pushing power creep, or commander players - who aren't just looking for a deck with a 1% better winrate like a standard player, but want something big and splashy and new - will stop buying new stuff. Every time you're trying to get the commander player to go out and buy a new product, it's gotta be more pushed every time, or it won't be more exciting than what he's already got. And while some commander players might be considering a whole intricate deck, most commander players are - apologies - morons. They see a card that looks big and splashy - Yarok, Muldrotha, Golos, Chulane, whatever - and that's what gets their attention. That's what gets them to go out and buy more product. And eventually, in order to get the commander players' attention, you've gotta push the cards so hard that they become a problem for other formats even. I think we're starting to see this problem with cards like Korvold, Uro, and Omnath. Maybe wotc will realize how bad this is for their other formats and dial it back a bit, or at least stick to slower, more expensive bombs that are less likely to cause problems in standard, but they can't stop pushing or commander players won't buy.

All of this has created a situation where it's no longer about the game, but about the cards. Because it's the cards that are getting people to get out and buy stuff, which is all that matters. People hate rotation, and I get that, but rotation is a way to keep this sort of thing from happening to the game, because it guarantees that people will keep buying new stuff out of necessity, without needing to constantly flash newer shinier things in people's faces. Look at all the stupid gimmicks wotc is resorting to, in order to get our attention so we'll spend more. Now we've got alternate arts, full borders, godzilla cards - just owning the card isn't enough, you need to get the one-in-a-billion full alternate art foil version so you can show all your friends how cool you are. So keep cracking those %$#%$#% packs, little piggies.

So finally we come to the current nadir, though I fear it will keep going down, and down; how far I cannot say. But make no mistake, this is a huge step down into the stygian pit that this game is destined to be swallowed by. Remember how it started off like LEGOs, just a fun thing that exists that you can build with using your imagination? SLxTWD is the antithesis to that beautiful dream. It's not about the game at all anymore. You get, what, five actual cards? For $50. There's no game to play here, there's no imagination. There's just a desperate hand grabbing at your wallet.

I want to talk about the price a bit because I think it's going overlooked among the other things. Only 2 people have voted for it, but I think it might actually be my #2 choice at this point. The original model of MtG was that they'd sell a bunch of random stuff, some would be good and some bad, and the secondary market could figure that out, wotc didn't really care. So yeah, dual lands are now absurdly expensive. Bummer. But wotc doesn't make money off the duals being expensive. If anything they're losing tons of money by not reprinting them. It's fine to hate the reserved list, I mean I get it, but in a lot of ways I think it represents something I love about magic - sometimes cards are really good and mostly they're not, but wotc doesn't exploit that fact. They just make random stuff. If they accidentally make a $1000 card, then that's just how it goes.

The pricing of these is different. I think the original lairs were definitely a testing ground for this sort of thing. Because yeah, everyone knows that bitterblossom is worth whatever the SL cost if you were buying it on the secondary market, but obviously it doesn't cost anything to wotc to print it. But people accepted the cost because the secondary market had already spoken. 15 cards for $3 a pack or whatever is obviously a bit steep, but y'know it takes a lot of time to make art and design the sets distribution and yadda yadda, and if you squint your eyes you could kind of see how it wasn't toooo outrageous. Sure, you probably only actually cared about the rare most of the time unless you were drafting, but I think the semblance of value from all the junk commons at least made it feel like you were getting something that took effort, even if it likely wasn't useful to you personally.

JTMS was $100 because it was the best card in the set by a lot. That price was so high because of all the other cards that "took the hit" financially. The EV of a pack is never going to go too high, or else they'll just get cracked and cracked until the supply reaches a reasonable equilibrium, at least while it's in print. So while people were digging for JTMS, all the other cards got opened a ton too, but without JTMS's demand, and were worth nothing. When card is worth a lot, it's because other cards are worth less. I can forgive a card getting super expensive because in the end, WotC doesn't necessarily profit. They're only selling booster packs of random cards, and the random cards are only as valuable as the average value of those random cards. So sure, Ashaya is a $10 card, but that's because nearly every other card that wotc also spent a bunch of time designing in ZNR is worth less, and mostly worth much less. WotC makes a couple hundred cards, sells them in boosters, some of those cards are Ashayas that make the boosters worth buying, and some are the nahiri's lithomancys that do not, even though wotc spent a bunch of time on that card too. And that's even within the paradigm of designing pushed cards like Ashaya explicitly to sell more packs. In a more beautiful, naïve world, where wotc just makes random stuff without trying to push (mostly towards commander players), it takes even more effort creating cards to end up with just a couple that become expensive.

With SLxTWD, WotC isn't playing that game anymore. They don't need to make a bunch of random cards and watch a few of them push packs while most of them are "wasted" effort. Instead they'll just ONLY print the Ashayas, except instead of hoping they catch on and become popular, which is too risky even when they're deliberately pushing, they'll instead just set the price where they want it. $10 for a card. No effort to create a whole set from which the wheat can emerge from the chaff. Just 5 cards for $50. There's no justifying that kind of price for how little effort it takes to create. But they don't have to, because they've already trained us to accept those kinds of prices from the secondary market. And because of nightmares like JTMS and tarmo that have driven the price of cards outrageously high, they know they can count on our FOMO to drive us to buy this pig slop even if we don't even really WANT it. Because we might wish we'd bought it in the future.

Because of this requirement of endless growth (magic is on track to double its revenue from 2017-2023 or something, I believe I've heard - and that's not a "neat fact", that's a target they're being set by their higher-ups...and once that's achieved they'll have to keep doing even BETTER), they can't ever back down on this stuff. They can try to get new customers - and obviously they are, I'm sure that's a big part of their goal with this dumpster fire - but at the same time they're going to keep flogging their customers harder and harder and HARDER. And it's never going to lighten up. It might stay the same, at least for a while. But it'll never, never go back to what it was like before, because they can never let their revenue go down or even stagnate. It's gotta keep going up, or the game is dead and buried. So more products, all the time. Until you literally cannot spend more money on this game, they will keep increasing the pressure.

One last note, vis a vis selling via the internet, which is my actual vote for #1 worst thing. This is yet another way that they're no longer selling the game, but just the cards. Selling via an LGS keeps people coming into stores and playing. But if they were selling through stores, the product would have to sit on shelves, and the price might have to shift if people weren't buying enough of it. This distribution model is pure, unadulterated evil because they can set the price for exactly what they want and it doesn't have to hold up whatsoever. If the product sucks, if people hate it, they don't have to worry about warehouses full of garbage. They don't have to make a game that's good anymore. They just say "hey, we're printing fake $50 bills, how many can I put you down for?" Then they print that many, and they make their money, and they don't have to give a %$#% about what anybody thinks because it couldn't lose money if it tried. I can't imagine a product that more perfectly encapsulates late-stage capitalism.

If SLxTWD cost $10 (realistically it would be overpriced at $2 for just 5 cards, but I'm feeling generous) and I could buy it from my LGS, and if it wasn't an IP I find personally obnoxious, I might grumble but I'd probably pick it up. But between all the different factors, this is unforgivable. I'm soft-boycotting wotc, and unless it becomes completely untenable I intend to refuse to play against any of these cards. But I doubt any of it will make a difference. I doubt anything CAN make a difference. Their distribution model is too good. Until the game finally dies, they're never going to stop, because they'd be fools to stop. It's the perfect product for everyone except the people actually playing the game. The game isn't dead, not yet. But it's probably never going to be more alive. It's going to keep moving while it slowly rots from the inside out. It truly is the walking dead (TM).

Ba-dum...sad tssh.

Well this was very well said, and sad to read. Its pretty much true unfortunately. Theres no cure for capitalism once its set in.

[JWK]

Maro tweeted that they could reprint these cards in the future using a different name and a different art.

Maro's statement is both factually true and completely without value. They *could* do a lot of things, like reprint in-demand cards such as (for merely one example) Training Grounds that have never seen a reprint. Or they could reprint other in-demand cards in a manner that makes them available in an amount even approaching demand, instead of reprinting them in extremely small and exclusve print runs (fetchlands) or premium products (Sylvan Library). But they consistently don't do these things. It's like an abusive alcoholic saying "I could stop drinking and punching you," but then continuing to drink and beat the crap out of you.

Notice what Maro *didn't* say in his statement? He didn't say they would do this, or when or where or in what format. Maybe a non-TWD Secret Lair? Maybe never? It's meaningless. And it's sad to see a guy who so cares for this game playing the corporate %$#%$#% artist in this way.

What would make a difference here? A specific statement of intent and a promise, to release regular-MTG versions of these cards in a manner that makes them normally available to the entire player base, a statement as to when and what form that will be, and a promise that they will stop releasing mechanically unique, new cards via premium or exclusive programs.

"I'm sorry, we f$$$$$d up," would also be nice, but pretty empty at this point.

Failing that, I really don't care what else they have to say at this point.

[onering]

Really, this all gets fixed if they reprint them as regular magic cards with in universe flavor and errata the TWD ones to be Godzilla'd. And by regular magic cards, I mean released in a regular manner as well. That would retroactively align these with the other Secret Lairs, just limited edition swag versions of normal cards. It would make them on par with Godzilla stuff or the cute cats.

[Airi]

Really, this all gets fixed if they reprint them as regular magic cards with in universe flavor and errata the TWD ones to be Godzilla'd. And by regular magic cards, I mean released in a regular manner as well. That would retroactively align these with the other Secret Lairs, just limited edition swag versions of normal cards. It would make them on par with Godzilla stuff or the cute cats.

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

[Treamayne]

Really, this all gets fixed if they reprint them as regular magic cards with in universe flavor and errata the TWD ones to be Godzilla'd. And by regular magic cards, I mean released in a regular manner as well. That would retroactively align these with the other Secret Lairs, just limited edition swag versions of normal cards. It would make them on par with Godzilla stuff or the cute cats.

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

It's like a cash grab version of the Future Sight Future Shifted cards. Limited Edition, Special Release, Premium, Alt-flavor, Elite-only Future-shifted cards that, like some of the originals, may never actually see a "first print/reprint."

[Card Slinger J]

Really, this all gets fixed if they reprint them as regular magic cards with in universe flavor and errata the TWD ones to be Godzilla'd. And by regular magic cards, I mean released in a regular manner as well. That would retroactively align these with the other Secret Lairs, just limited edition swag versions of normal cards. It would make them on par with Godzilla stuff or the cute cats.

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

Secret Lair in general was a mistake to begin with that's not only putting Local Game Stores out of business (unless they're allowed to sell the products at the store) but is now creating a very dangerous incentive to push new cards to sell direct-to-consumer like Amazon and other online retailers instead of focusing on reprints of old cards that aren't on the Reserve List which was the original premise of Secret Lair to begin with.

Wizards of the Coast saw that they can get away with printing new cards through Secret Lair instead of releasing them through sealed products that they aren't making as much money on due to everyone buying into the Singles Market which also explains the severe lack of mass box openings at Local Game Stores being a major side effect of the pandemic. If Secret Lair was more accessible to Local Game Stores then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

[motleyslayer]

My big issue with the walking dead secret lair is pretty much the same as cards that were only available as box toppers. They create a dangerous precedent for cards that are only available for a super limited amount of time and only through one channel/method of purchase.

I wouldn't mind a lot of the cards like this if they were at least somewhat easily available. But they're pretty hard to get

[toctheyounger]

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

That stream was a %$#% of gaslighting and spinning %$#%$#% to anyone dumb enough to lap it up. They didn't even look like they bought it themselves.

They even had the gall to say 'well you know we did do Arabian Nights'. The plane that's based on is what they name the scale that judges how likely it is we ever revisit a location. It's called the Rabiah scale, and Rabiah is a 10, Ravnica and Zendikar are near 1. From the wiki: Level 10: I never say never, but this would require a major miracle. The hypocrisy was absolutely rife.

At this point I'm really reluctant to shell out any more money to Wizards just on principle. I think for the time being singles and giving as much of my investment into the game to my LGS will be my priority. Wizards may not be interested in the community, but I am.

[3drinks]

Idk. I guess I don't really have an opinion one way or the other because I'm not the key demo for this product. Never watched TWD. Don't care too, tbh. And I've long since grown out of the need to buy every new card I "need" only for WotC to slap a fresh coat of paint on another card to say it's "better".

Meh. Ultimately, it's just different flavours of the same effect. If there's only one thing my forays into pre-modern building has taught me, it's that I already have all the tools I need to function at any given game. The new cards are just a different flavour of the same effect. Terminate is Terminate is Terminate. I don't feel an urge to go out and get the shiny new Terminate when the old Terminate still fulfills the same role - but yawl ain't ready for that conversation because it's not the newest, hippest thing and players are chasing clout for having the "latest and greatest".

You know what happens when you try and keep up with the Jones'? Well, the Jones' are bankrupt, and you'll find the same fate if you follow them. Just stop and realize it's an unnecessary purchase, and you're being manipulated into believing you can't play without new card X, by the corporate machine that cares only about your dollar, not yourself. Just stop and think how many new cards came out, that you bought on presale for $40, and then cut them within two sets for the next $40 presale? you're certainly not cutting your demonic tutors and gaea's cradles, right? So it's the new card that got cut to make room for another new card. All you have to do is stop............

[toctheyounger]

Meh. Ultimately, it's just different flavours of the same effect. If there's only one thing my forays into pre-modern building has taught me, it's that I already have all the tools I need to function at any given game. The new cards are just a different flavour of the same effect. Terminate is Terminate is Terminate. I don't feel an urge to go out and get the shiny new Terminate when the old Terminate still fulfills the same role - but yawl ain't ready for that conversation because it's not the newest, hippest thing and players are chasing clout for having the "latest and greatest".

You know what happens when you try and keep up with the Jones'? Well, the Jones' are bankrupt, and you'll find the same fate if you follow them. Just stop and realize it's an unnecessary purchase, and you're being manipulated into believing you can't play without new card X, by the corporate machine that cares only about your dollar, not yourself. Just stop and think how many new cards came out, that you bought on presale for $40, and then cut them within two sets for the next $40 presale? you're certainly not cutting your demonic tutors and gaea's cradles, right? So it's the new card that got cut to make room for another new card. All you have to do is stop............

I dig this. You're not wrong, and honestly, the decks I enjoy playing most are the ones I've really had to think around a corner to compete with.

From my end it's just disappointing to see how far down the corporate money trough WotC has stuck their snout, and even if we stop, they won't. I've seen it with companies I've worked for in the past, they just throw away whatever integrity they might once have had in pursuit of whatever profit they can rouse. I gotta be honest, it makes me embarrassed to continue to support them, so I'm very much less likely to do so.

[Card Slinger J]

Meh. Ultimately, it's just different flavours of the same effect. If there's only one thing my forays into pre-modern building has taught me, it's that I already have all the tools I need to function at any given game. The new cards are just a different flavour of the same effect. Terminate is Terminate is Terminate. I don't feel an urge to go out and get the shiny new Terminate when the old Terminate still fulfills the same role - but yawl ain't ready for that conversation because it's not the newest, hippest thing and players are chasing clout for having the "latest and greatest".

You know what happens when you try and keep up with the Jones'? Well, the Jones' are bankrupt, and you'll find the same fate if you follow them. Just stop and realize it's an unnecessary purchase, and you're being manipulated into believing you can't play without new card X, by the corporate machine that cares only about your dollar, not yourself. Just stop and think how many new cards came out, that you bought on presale for $40, and then cut them within two sets for the next $40 presale? you're certainly not cutting your demonic tutors and gaea's cradles, right? So it's the new card that got cut to make room for another new card. All you have to do is stop............

I dig this. You're not wrong, and honestly, the decks I enjoy playing most are the ones I've really had to think around a corner to compete with.

From my end it's just disappointing to see how far down the corporate money trough WotC has stuck their snout, and even if we stop, they won't. I've seen it with companies I've worked for in the past, they just throw away whatever integrity they might once have had in pursuit of whatever profit they can rouse. I gotta be honest, it makes me embarrassed to continue to support them, so I'm very much less likely to do so.

Wizards of the Coast is really no different from all the game companies in the past who were responsible for Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games getting discontinued whether If it was Bandai Namco, Upper Deck, Blizzard, Score / Panini, Bushiroad, etc. I think it took much longer to affect MTG due to how big the community was compared to all these other games unable to compete against it alongside Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokémon TCG due to how crowded the market is. I still don't know how Yu-Gi-Oh! is doing better than MTG currently though I guess Konami is finally reaching out to the community more? Now granted I haven't really been keeping up with Yu-Gi-Oh! since 2004 but it seems as though they might be turning a new leaf so to speak according to some of my friends at my locals who've been monitoring the game after I quit Yu-Gi-Oh!.

If MTG has / had one advantage over Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokémon TCG it's that it has / had a dedicated casual format to get people to play at their Local Game Store (LGS) with EDH / Commander since most of MTG's competition is too reliant on competitive formats. Wizards of the Coast probably saw that as an opportunity to squeeze as much money from the casual player base as possible starting with the Walking Dead Secret Lairs since COVID helped them force all the competitive players participating at In-Person Events at their LGS to migrate over to Arena. The Rules Committee was in some ways the glue that was still holding Paper Magic together since most other formats are already on life support namely Standard. With the Rules Committee breaching the trust between themselves and the MTG community what else did you expect?

[toctheyounger]

With the Rules Committee breaching the trust between themselves and the MTG community what else did you expect?

I don't see any evidence that this is the case. I personally respect the decision they made even though I disagree with it. It's a scenario the ban criteria isn't really equipped to deal with, and all communication in the last day or so from the RC indicates that they have passed on the ire of the community to Wizards. Not to mention they've been entirely open with us around how they arrived at the decision.

Thing is a corporation doesn't have to give a %$#% how we feel because that doesn't pay the bills. This is just what late stage capitalism is like - it'll cannibalise its own customers until there are none left then scavenge through the wreckage of their product for what little value is left, and move on.

I used to work for (and be proud to) a bookstore that was a nationwide respectable brand where I live. Quality service, great range no matter who you were. At some point they just discarded the values that made them so reputable and started chasing ever increasing profits, with profit targets which were virtually impossible to meet. The end stage of that is that the company has come really close to liquidation in the last few years and has had to sell off some of its biggest stores and biggest assets to keep afloat. Nowadays they're less a bookstore than a glorified Walmart (to put it in references most of the readers here would understand). I saw this coming years off when I quit, and wasn't at all surprised when it did happen.

What's happening right now with Wizards is ominously familiar, so I won't be surprised if this is the beginning of a downward spiral. But let's be honest, there's probably very little the RC could have done to halt the advance of the ever-hungry corporate beast. They didn't not try, they didn't sell us out, they just didn't have the sway we hoped they might have.

[Card Slinger J]

What's happening right now with Wizards is ominously familiar, so I won't be surprised if this is the beginning of a downward spiral. But let's be honest, there's probably very little the RC could have done to halt the advance of the ever-hungry corporate beast. They didn't not try, they didn't sell us out, they just didn't have the sway we hoped they might have.

The Rules Committee is bought and paid for by Wizards of the Coast so of course they didn't have the sway we hoped that they would have. We all know at some point in time that Wizards of the Coast is going to gain complete ownership of EDH / Commander as a format as this is really just delaying the inevitable.

Warning for flaming the Rules Committee with baseless conspiracy theory. - cryo

[pokken]

The Rules Committee is bought and paid for by Wizards of the Coast

Citation needed

[toctheyounger]

What's happening right now with Wizards is ominously familiar, so I won't be surprised if this is the beginning of a downward spiral. But let's be honest, there's probably very little the RC could have done to halt the advance of the ever-hungry corporate beast. They didn't not try, they didn't sell us out, they just didn't have the sway we hoped they might have.

The Rules Committee is bought and paid for by Wizards of the Coast so of course they didn't have the sway we hoped that they would have. We all know at some point in time that Wizards of the Coast is going to gain complete ownership of EDH / Commander as a format as this is really just delaying the inevitable.

There's literally no reason that this is the case. One member of the RC works for Wizards, the rest do not. If that's your evidence, it's hardly new and it isn't particularly compelling.

Aside from that, they're not the bad guys here, they take enough %$#% in general, so honestly this just feels like projecting that you didn't get what you wanted. No offense, it's just a bit reactionary.

[Card Slinger J]

What's happening right now with Wizards is ominously familiar, so I won't be surprised if this is the beginning of a downward spiral. But let's be honest, there's probably very little the RC could have done to halt the advance of the ever-hungry corporate beast. They didn't not try, they didn't sell us out, they just didn't have the sway we hoped they might have.

The Rules Committee is bought and paid for by Wizards of the Coast so of course they didn't have the sway we hoped that they would have. We all know at some point in time that Wizards of the Coast is going to gain complete ownership of EDH / Commander as a format as this is really just delaying the inevitable.

There's literally no reason that this is the case. One member of the RC works for Wizards, the rest do not. If that's your evidence, it's hardly new and it isn't particularly compelling.

Aside from that, they're not the bad guys here, they take enough %$#% in general, so honestly this just feels like projecting that you didn't get what you wanted. No offense, it's just a bit reactionary.

Okay okay I get it. Knowing that only one out of the rest of the Rules Committee works for Wizards of the Coast puts my mind at ease. I have nothing against the Rules Committee when I'm more disappointed with Wizards of the Coast in regards to how they allowed this situation to occur by putting the Rules Committee on the spot like this.

[toctheyounger]

The Rules Committee is bought and paid for by Wizards of the Coast so of course they didn't have the sway we hoped that they would have. We all know at some point in time that Wizards of the Coast is going to gain complete ownership of EDH / Commander as a format as this is really just delaying the inevitable.

There's literally no reason that this is the case. One member of the RC works for Wizards, the rest do not. If that's your evidence, it's hardly new and it isn't particularly compelling.

Aside from that, they're not the bad guys here, they take enough %$#% in general, so honestly this just feels like projecting that you didn't get what you wanted. No offense, it's just a bit reactionary.

Okay okay I get it. Knowing that only one out of the rest of the Rules Committee works for Wizards of the Coast puts my mind at ease. I have nothing against the Rules Committee when I'm more disappointed with Wizards of the Coast in regards to how they allowed this situation to occur by putting the Rules Committee on the spot like this.

I get it, though. You want to be able to vent your frustration at someone who can actually take your frustration. It's just that it's not their fault at all. I can see how they arrived at the decision myself and I'm pretty disappointed that they didn't take a firmer stance, but yeah, it's a scenarion their ban criteria doesn't really cover.

[onering]

Really, this all gets fixed if they reprint them as regular magic cards with in universe flavor and errata the TWD ones to be Godzilla'd. And by regular magic cards, I mean released in a regular manner as well. That would retroactively align these with the other Secret Lairs, just limited edition swag versions of normal cards. It would make them on par with Godzilla stuff or the cute cats.

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

It's like a cash grab version of the Future Sight Future Shifted cards. Limited Edition, Special Release, Premium, Alt-flavor, Elite-only Future-shifted cards that, like some of the originals, may never actually see a "first print/reprint."

They'd have to actually make sure the 'real magic' versions see print fairly soon after the secret lair, and let people know that is how it's going to work. It's not a lot of cards in a secret lair, and they don't have to be in standard legal sets. They could pretty easily coordinate things so that the real versions get released within a year in the relevant commander or brawl release, or spread out between products that year. I don't have a problem with a premium future sight style product if there's confidence that the regular versions will be released reasonably soon after. But that all hinges on WotC realizing this and making it clear that these secret lairs would be a special edition early access version that will definitely be reprinted within a year, or at max 2.

[toctheyounger]

That only works if they stop printing new cards through secret lair, which they have said they will continue doing during their stream. It just creates a pretty pricy early access card with a bug fat question mark as to when we'll see a normal release.

It's like a cash grab version of the Future Sight Future Shifted cards. Limited Edition, Special Release, Premium, Alt-flavor, Elite-only Future-shifted cards that, like some of the originals, may never actually see a "first print/reprint."

They'd have to actually make sure the 'real magic' versions see print fairly soon after the secret lair, and let people know that is how it's going to work. It's not a lot of cards in a secret lair, and they don't have to be in standard legal sets. They could pretty easily coordinate things so that the real versions get released within a year in the relevant commander or brawl release, or spread out between products that year. I don't have a problem with a premium future sight style product if there's confidence that the regular versions will be released reasonably soon after. But that all hinges on WotC realizing this and making it clear that these secret lairs would be a special edition early access version that will definitely be reprinted within a year, or at max 2.

My LGS owner and I were talking the other day about it and saying how unfortunate for Wizards it was that Commander Legends has already been slated for release so shortly after this SL. It'd be the perfect place to retcon them into a set on the back end and pretend it was meant to happen that way the whole time.

[not-a-cube]

Are these cards canon now? I always figured all black bordered cards to be existing somewhere in the magic universe and this would mean there is an actual twd universe plane where jace and friends can planeswalk to. They have done that before ofc with the p3k set where they go back to the three kingdoms era in china, but that at least felt thematicly closer to magic than TWD does. Rabiah is simular but at least that had some actual lore with Taysir. The idea that every (not so)pop-culture universe can have a plane in the multiverse makes me feel sad.

[DirkGently]

My understanding from listening to WotCs "you're wrong to be mad" video was that no, they won't be part of cannon in any way, as denoted by the triangular holo-stamp.

That said, if I'm squaring off against Rick "Coooooral" Grimes at my LGS, then I'm not sure it makes any difference.

[JWK]

My LGS owner and I were talking the other day about it and saying how unfortunate for Wizards it was that Commander Legends has already been slated for release so shortly after this SL. It'd be the perfect place to retcon them into a set on the back end and pretend it was meant to happen that way the whole time.

CL has been in planning for a long time, and so was this product. As I have said before, if they cared about the integrity of the game and put thought and planning into such matters, it would have been fairly easy for these cards to have been included in Commander Legends, and for the TWD versions to serve as a special-skinned preview for some of the cards in that set. It would have generated excitement about CL, given people the special TWD cards if that is what they want and completely avoided all the ill will this Secret Lair has created.

If only the people at WotC gave a %$#% to think of things that were so obvious to piles of fans with a moment of thought as soon as the SL was anounced.

[UnfulfilledDesires]

My LGS owner and I were talking the other day about it and saying how unfortunate for Wizards it was that Commander Legends has already been slated for release so shortly after this SL. It'd be the perfect place to retcon them into a set on the back end and pretend it was meant to happen that way the whole time.

CL has been in planning for a long time, and so was this product. As I have said before, if they cared about the integrity of the game and put thought and planning into such matters, it would have been fairly easy for these cards to have been included in Commander Legends, and for the TWD versions to serve as a special-skinned preview for some of the cards in that set. It would have generated excitement about CL, given people the special TWD cards if that is what they want and completely avoided all the ill will this Secret Lair has created.

If only the people at WotC gave a %$#% to think of things that were so obvious to piles of fans with a moment of thought as soon as the SL was anounced.

Unlike many folks, I'm not upset about this whole thing, but I agree having the TWD SL as a reskins of CL cards would have been much better.

[Wallycaine]

Are these cards canon now? I always figured all black bordered cards to be existing somewhere in the magic universe and this would mean there is an actual twd universe plane where jace and friends can planeswalk to. They have done that before ofc with the p3k set where they go back to the three kingdoms era in china, but that at least felt thematicly closer to magic than TWD does. Rabiah is simular but at least that had some actual lore with Taysir. The idea that every (not so)pop-culture universe can have a plane in the multiverse makes me feel sad.

Not all black border cards are canon. As you point out, Portal 3 Kingdoms is already non-canon, since it's a straight port of Chinese stories. Nor are the Godzilla cards implying that there exists a Godzilla plane.