What bothers you most about the Walking Dead commanders?

Which of the following bothers you MOST?

Using any non-Magic intellectual property on black-bordered magic cards.
26
31%
The Walking Dead being out-of-flavor for a fantasy card game.
5
6%
The specific mechanics of these cards.
0
No votes
Selling them online only.
8
9%
The limited time window they're available for.
26
31%
The cost they're selling them for.
3
4%
The cards not being available in many regions.
10
12%
I am not bothered by these cards.
7
8%
 
Total votes: 85

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
To add to this, and this is totally a subjective thing that some might not agree on, but I hate the art. All of them are very pedestrian, to the point that I personally think they almost look like homemade custom cards. I just can't help it, I hate them. A lot. Art is subjective of course, but I don't know of anyone raving about the art on these.
I think they should have gone with the comics as their inspiration. That would have fit with some of the other alt-arts they're doing, and the comics have a lot more cred to them, imo, than the show, which felt like a cash-grab even before it was on a single magic card.
Cyberium wrote:
3 years ago
None of the above.

What bothers me is that WotC is setting up potential continuation for such decision.
If none of the above bothers you, then why would the precedent matter?

The question was which of the FOLLOWING on purpose - I think everyone can agree that this would be a way way way smaller deal if it was guaranteed to be a one-and-done. Saying that the precedent matters most is a given.
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

Look, if people buy this they will do it again. If we all avoid buying this crap then they will get the message.

What is crazy to me is that they chose such a bad IP to do this. TWD seems wrong for so many reasons. If they did Lord of the Rings or Marvel, they would have sold a lot of product and set a precedent that this was okay. Because they chose TWD, there is a decent chance it fails and is never repeated.

Maybe this can even kill Secret lair drops.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I'd love to hope so, but I really doubt it.

For me, how reasonable the IP choice is breaks down to 3 things, in decreasing order of importance:

1) how commercial the IP is.
2) how close to magic's fantasy aesthetic it is.
3) how good it is.

To me, TWD scores badly all three counts. LotR would score highly across the board. Marvel is slightly better than TWD because at least it's watchable, but it's still very commercial and doesn't fit the aesthetic. I'd rather have something like 1984 - even though it doesn't fit the aesthetic and (imo) isn't very good, because at least it wouldn't feel like I'm being forced to play an advertisement if I want to play the card.
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Post by Ginuqu » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Ginuqu wrote:
3 years ago
revising my chief hang-up to being the way I can't find anyone who wants to play really weird freestyle casual Magic, so I'm forced to build a commander deck, and then that format promptly starts to fragment and be dominated by biz gossip which I deeply don't care about. think I'm gonna suspend my idea of getting into EDH and just use the cards I'd ordered for other things, write some articles about solo play or something.
Totally get it, but I do want to say it's a shame that you've made this decision. All the current release drama aside, I strongly believe this format is the greatest one available to Magic consumers in general. It's social, malleable, non-competitive and can be absolutely wonderful. Where else could I create decks to emulate a series of books I like? There's no other format where zombie tribal can be as fun as I'd like to think my Varina build is.

Don't give up on the format just yet, give it a fair shake at least. Generally, our community is pretty unified, supportive and generally pretty great people that'll go out of their way to help you do what you want to do, and our format is a lot of fun. At the very least if you don't like the game play you can always take whatever deck you end up creating apart and trade it for value. This whole drama will pass, and while it's a bit of a bleak scenario, you don't need to buy into it. Just grab yourself some cards, make a deck and have some fun, it really doesn't have to pervade your games any more than you let it.
Thanks for the encouragement!

I do worry that Commander being a "format" is the beginning of the problem, though. When I saw the TWD cards all I did was cackle with laughter at how obtrusive they felt. Beyond that, they mean absolutely nothing to me; I used to run plenty of things that felt unofficial, and still wanna try to bring back home-made Vanguard cards or put rule frames around cards from other collectible games and stuff like that. It's all in the distant past now but when I had an experimental, casual set of Magic friends it felt far more fun than it has done since! I suspect that, when you're part of a regulated play format which normally excludes the ridiculous then this TWD stuff shakes the foundations. It's treacherous ground, when your format's high-profile enough that you have to constantly hope the people in charge of it don't allow it to be ruined. I just prefer to be detached from the side of the game that takes itself seriously and take all the doomsaying as a sign that Commander's closer to regulated play than anything I want from the game.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I can't speak for everyone of course, but as someone who owns a Star Wars: the Gathering cube (all laboriously printed and glued onto real magic cards), I'm absolutely down for wacky experiments. I think the problem here is how blatantly promotional it is. In a parallel universe, if someone showed up with one of these cards as a hand-made custom commander, even with the (blech) walking dead flavor, I'd probably be down. But when WotC, as a company, is promoting the show and forcing anyone who wants to play these cards to essentially support the show by providing free advertising, that's when I get a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. Especially when they're also tacking on an outrageous price tag and predatory marketing scheme.

It's not so much about the cards themselves, so much as the motivation behind them. Someone's custom format/cards don't come with any of that weighty baggage.
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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I can't speak for everyone of course, but as someone who owns a Star Wars: the Gathering cube (all laboriously printed and glued onto real magic cards), I'm absolutely down for wacky experiments. I think the problem here is how blatantly promotional it is. In a parallel universe, if someone showed up with one of these cards as a hand-made custom commander, even with the (blech) walking dead flavor, I'd probably be down. But when WotC, as a company, is promoting the show and forcing anyone who wants to play these cards to essentially support the show by providing free advertising, that's when I get a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. Especially when they're also tacking on an outrageous price tag and predatory marketing scheme.

It's not so much about the cards themselves, so much as the motivation behind them. Someone's custom format/cards don't come with any of that weighty baggage.
This is my issue as well. Make the cards and let people add their own flavorful IP to them. Don't force that IP on everyone and give the players the equally bad choices of turning them into regular Magic cards, not enjoy using them, or to not use them at all.

I don't particularly like the crossovers like Godzilla or Transformers/MLP, but they were at least done in a way that let players decide how much it impacts them.
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Post by Ginuqu » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I can't speak for everyone of course, but as someone who owns a Star Wars: the Gathering cube (all laboriously printed and glued onto real magic cards), I'm absolutely down for wacky experiments. I think the problem here is how blatantly promotional it is. In a parallel universe, if someone showed up with one of these cards as a hand-made custom commander, even with the (blech) walking dead flavor, I'd probably be down. But when WotC, as a company, is promoting the show and forcing anyone who wants to play these cards to essentially support the show by providing free advertising, that's when I get a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. Especially when they're also tacking on an outrageous price tag and predatory marketing scheme.
Fair enough, yeah. The TWD cards are tacky, it's a cynical tie-in. Just not the most pressing concern to me!
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Post by Cyberium » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago

If none of the above bothers you, then why would the precedent matter?

The question was which of the FOLLOWING on purpose - I think everyone can agree that this would be a way way way smaller deal if it was guaranteed to be a one-and-done. Saying that the precedent matters most is a given.
Very true. In that case, it's the cost that concerns me the most. If it was like $15 a set it would be much easier to acquire for people.

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Post by Legend » 3 years ago

Also none of the above. I'm pissed that Hasbro saw fit to publish a card based on an unrepentant serial rapist right after cancelling a batch of cards for being offensive. Play Cards Against Humanity for that kind of thing.

EDIT: Negan may be no Hitler/Bolas, but he would be if he could.
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

I think they should have done Lori Grimes as a functional reprint of Soldier of Fortune, because honestly she didn't do anything but annoy the audience.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Ginuqu wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Ginuqu wrote:
3 years ago
revising my chief hang-up to being the way I can't find anyone who wants to play really weird freestyle casual Magic, so I'm forced to build a commander deck, and then that format promptly starts to fragment and be dominated by biz gossip which I deeply don't care about. think I'm gonna suspend my idea of getting into EDH and just use the cards I'd ordered for other things, write some articles about solo play or something.
Totally get it, but I do want to say it's a shame that you've made this decision. All the current release drama aside, I strongly believe this format is the greatest one available to Magic consumers in general. It's social, malleable, non-competitive and can be absolutely wonderful. Where else could I create decks to emulate a series of books I like? There's no other format where zombie tribal can be as fun as I'd like to think my Varina build is.

Don't give up on the format just yet, give it a fair shake at least. Generally, our community is pretty unified, supportive and generally pretty great people that'll go out of their way to help you do what you want to do, and our format is a lot of fun. At the very least if you don't like the game play you can always take whatever deck you end up creating apart and trade it for value. This whole drama will pass, and while it's a bit of a bleak scenario, you don't need to buy into it. Just grab yourself some cards, make a deck and have some fun, it really doesn't have to pervade your games any more than you let it.
Thanks for the encouragement!

I do worry that Commander being a "format" is the beginning of the problem, though. When I saw the TWD cards all I did was cackle with laughter at how obtrusive they felt. Beyond that, they mean absolutely nothing to me; I used to run plenty of things that felt unofficial, and still wanna try to bring back home-made Vanguard cards or put rule frames around cards from other collectible games and stuff like that. It's all in the distant past now but when I had an experimental, casual set of Magic friends it felt far more fun than it has done since! I suspect that, when you're part of a regulated play format which normally excludes the ridiculous then this TWD stuff shakes the foundations. It's treacherous ground, when your format's high-profile enough that you have to constantly hope the people in charge of it don't allow it to be ruined. I just prefer to be detached from the side of the game that takes itself seriously and take all the doomsaying as a sign that Commander's closer to regulated play than anything I want from the game.
I mean this is a pretty good example of our format taking itself pretty seriously. It's a bit of a shambles purely because this comes from the top, but otherwise I'm all for the silly side of the format and I encourage it where appropriate. I know a guy who has a Kemba, Kha Regent cat in the hat deck, and I'm all for that. I've got decks built based on books I like.

Ultimately, there's no need for you to wear any of this drama as someone new to the format, and it's mostly academic anyway unless you interact with someone who bought these - in which case you get the honor of telling them they need someone better to do their alters next time. Hahahahahahahaaaa, I'm a shady %$#% :D

But yeah don't sweat this - all that matters is if you enjoy your gameplay in the format or not.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Posting here for lack of a better place. So I hit up Brawlhalla, a free to play fighter game, and what greets me after a prolonged absence?

"Image"

It would appear that TWD is going deep on publicity. In the case of Brawlhalla, they're the eleventh IP to have skins included. Pity that MTG chose to join the cohort.
 
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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago



Secret Lair The Walking Dead was the best-selling secret lair to date
For those who can't watch, Mark Heggen confirms a couple of things on the stream announcing secret lairs for 2021

-Secret Lair which prompted the most internal discussion at WOTC

-They know it was unpopular with many, yet it was their best-selling secret lair drop to date.

-According to the data, it's not enfranchised magic players stockpiling these as

a)most of the sales involved 1-2 copies

b)compared to other drops it had the most customers new to secret lair and mtg,

c)according to their customer outreach, for many it was the first mtg cards they owned

-In the future, they will try to continue experimenting in this space while respecting the opinions of those who disliked it
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
3 years ago
-In the future, they will try to continue experimenting in this space while respecting the opinions of those who disliked it
Does that "respect" translate to any actual change to the future product?

Because if not, I've got a great place for them to shove their "respect"...
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Post by Treamayne » 3 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
3 years ago

c)according to their customer outreach, for many it was the first mtg cards they owned
Sounds like a great reason they should have been silver bordered. Little to no drop in sales if it was mainly bought by WD fans that do not play Magic, and they wouldn't have broken another promise and upset the actual fans of Magic.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

Treamayne wrote:
3 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
3 years ago

c)according to their customer outreach, for many it was the first mtg cards they owned
Sounds like a great reason they should have been silver bordered. Little to no drop in sales if it was mainly bought by WD fans that do not play Magic, and they wouldn't have broken another promise and upset the actual fans of Magic.
Yeah, or they could have made them as "skins" like Godzilla cards.
They made functional commander but in the end WD fans bought it not for their playability. I wonder if the genius wotc management will understand this.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

If they can lower the price point and increase availability worldwide I mostly wouldn't have an issue with TWD secret layer. I get the whole clash with non magic worlds but for me its a very distant third issue that is far from my primary issue with this product. I think that all secret layers are over priced but normally when they are just reprints of existing cards it doesn't bother me as I don't feel like I need some special promo version of those cards. When it comes to paying for like 6 individual cards that they are straight up selling though I would feel like paying more than $25 is really about the threshold of me starting to get annoyed.

Also, stop with the stupid fancy packaging. Its such a waste of stuff getting thrown away. For all I care WOTC can send those six cards to me in one hard sleeve in an envelop and keep me from throwing a bunch of %$#% away. I feel like their stupid packaging is probably 80% of their cost on this sort of product. I also was super displeased to be charged like $7 to ship within the US for what should have been a $1 ship if not included. Have you ever bought anything through Cardkingdom / Starcity / Channel Fireball? They all use slim plastic cases that can ship cards in a bubble wrap package that is usually free shipping once you get to a threshold that is less than what we paid for TWD Layer.
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Post by Kelzam » 3 years ago

*shrug* I'll be enjoying my Negan and Glenn decks and Rick is going right into Mardu Humans. I liked the cards, I like TWD, the vast majority of the "problems" touted are blown out of proportion or are being massively misrepresented by a lot of people that assume their echo chamber speaks for Everyone™, who heed every opportunity possible to be mad at Wizards over even the most superfluous reasons.
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onering
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

Kelzam wrote:
3 years ago
*shrug* I'll be enjoying my Negan and Glenn decks and Rick is going right into Mardu Humans. I liked the cards, I like TWD, the vast majority of the "problems" touted are blown out of proportion or are being massively misrepresented by a lot of people that assume their echo chamber speaks for Everyone™, who heed every opportunity possible to be mad at Wizards over even the most superfluous reasons.
Right? People who don't like what you personally like don't have genuine opinions or concerns, they're just haters, and you are not in any way biased because you personally like this IP.

Meanwhile, I have only seen these played once on mtgo, where they were easier to access than irl. Like the data says, these sold well but mostly to people who don't play much magic. The echo chamber isn't nexus, its the player base. What the data shows is a trend that has existed for some time now, a significant disconnect between the enfranchised players that make up the core of magics customer base and the peripheral players who individually don't buy as much product or play as much magic but outnumber the core players. Magic relies on both these groups about equally, and both of these groups have different wants and needs, with some overlap. Secret Lairs have some overlap here, as both peripheral players and core players are attracted to swag, and the secret Lairs have often used themes that have broad appeal among peripheral players and non players who might be drawn in by theme alone (cute cats! Girl Power!) and core players who might purchase a secret lair even if the theme doesn't appeal to them because of the cards themselves, and especially the core players who also dig the theme. TWD appeals mostly to peripherals drawn in by the theme and those core players who are also big TWD fans and who aren't turned off by the issues surrounding the release and black border design. The fact remains that the Godzilla skins did the exact same thing that the TWD secret lair does, appeal to peripheral players and non players that really like Godzilla as well as core players that really like Godzilla, without turning off core players who weren't into Godzilla or creating any issues with black border outside IPs. The skins model is a great compromise position that takes nothing away from the intended audience while addressing the concerns of everyone else, and already existed and was already proven successful. And with a secret lair focused on legendary creatures, it would have been incredibly easy to do this, as the 'real' versions could be dropped in commander or brawl precons over a year or two, with the name not really mattering and flavor done to order.

Magic is a game that relies heavily on a minority of their customers for revenue. They've done well expanding their reach to peripheral players and even non players, and often have found ways of doing so that also appeal to many or most core players or at least don't antagonize the core players. TWD drop failed at the latter. When something like this happens, WotC earns criticism. WotC loses nothing by addressing these concerns, and in doing so they don't even have to change their focus, they can still make these kinds of products aimed primarily at peripheral and non players without alienating core players. When your business model relies on both groups, it's the smart thing to do.

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