PSA: Don't be a tool, don't play spell lands Belcher

[onering]

As the title says. I'm getting a bit tired of the meme deck of the month trend as it is, and spell lands Belcher is just particularly obnoxious. Its not original, its not fun, its not even very good, its just annoying and has a propensity to ruin games. Not calling for a ban or anything, I fully expect that this will be popular for a month or two and then die because its only fun for the pilot once or twice and not fun for anyone else, just pointing out that its one of the worst kinds of decks for this format.

[Dunharrow]

For commander, not a good call. For 60 card formats seems like it could be a fun deck to pilot.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

As the title says. I'm getting a bit tired of the meme deck of the month trend as it is, and spell lands Belcher is just particularly obnoxious. Its not original, its not fun, its not even very good, its just annoying and has a propensity to ruin games. Not calling for a ban or anything, I fully expect that this will be popular for a month or two and then die because its only fun for the pilot once or twice and not fun for anyone else, just pointing out that its one of the worst kinds of decks for this format.

Oh, thank you for descending from the heavens to remind us what the objective concept of fun is. I'm sure we would have never figured that out without you.

Sarcasm aside, hop off your high horse. EDH is a format full of meme decks, and your tone is presumptuous if I'm being generous, much worse if I was to be honest. Let people live, man.

[ISBPathfinder]

So, I just counted and there are 30 spell lands. Goblin Charbelcher needs 7 mana to do its thing in one turn and thats assuming there isn't an extra tutor cost added in not to mention the delay of all of your lands entering tapped (mostly).

The mana fixing to get all of the colors to function is also probably going to be a problem.

I would say at best its a cheap gimmick. It looks slow though and there are actually a lot of things that will make the deck irrelevant. Its probably a cheap glass cannon but I wouldn't say its good, fast, or competitive.

[OCPunisher]

As the title says. I'm getting a bit tired of the meme deck of the month trend as it is, and spell lands Belcher is just particularly obnoxious. Its not original, its not fun, its not even very good, its just annoying and has a propensity to ruin games. Not calling for a ban or anything, I fully expect that this will be popular for a month or two and then die because its only fun for the pilot once or twice and not fun for anyone else, just pointing out that its one of the worst kinds of decks for this format.

Oh, thank you for descending from the heavens to remind us what the objective concept of fun is. I'm sure we would have never figured that out without you.

Sarcasm aside, hop off your high horse. EDH is a format full of meme decks, and your tone is presumptuous if I'm being generous, much worse if I was to be honest. Let people live, man.

I'll side with the OP on this one. I have a very small amount of time to actually sit down and enjoy a game of Magic, and if someone else is gonna waste that precious time with something dumb and degenerate like this, I'll make sure to let them know what a colossal d-bag they are before putting them on the block list. If that makes me an old curmudgeon on a high horse, then I'll ride that horse. As the kids say, ain't nobody got time for that.

[onering]

As the title says. I'm getting a bit tired of the meme deck of the month trend as it is, and spell lands Belcher is just particularly obnoxious. Its not original, its not fun, its not even very good, its just annoying and has a propensity to ruin games. Not calling for a ban or anything, I fully expect that this will be popular for a month or two and then die because its only fun for the pilot once or twice and not fun for anyone else, just pointing out that its one of the worst kinds of decks for this format.

Oh, thank you for descending from the heavens to remind us what the objective concept of fun is. I'm sure we would have never figured that out without you.

Sarcasm aside, hop off your high horse. EDH is a format full of meme decks, and your tone is presumptuous if I'm being generous, much worse if I was to be honest. Let people live, man.

Gee, thanks for your insightful response.

Yeah, apparently some people do need it explained to them what fun is, specifically that when you build a deck like this you are only considering your own fun at the expense of the table, which is against the concept of a social format. It's not just a meme deck, if you take this approach your just being a tool. And you're especially being a tool when you bring a deck like this to random tables because you know your best chance of actually doing anything with it is catching people by surprise.

So yeah, you're free to play whatever you want, and I'm free to call out your deck for being cancerous.

Also, and this may surprise you, but sometimes a deck might seem like a cute concept and then ends up being really asinine in practice. Sometimes a heads up that the play pattern of a deck is the equivalent of a table flip is warranted.

[onering]

So, I just counted and there are 30 spell lands. Goblin Charbelcher needs 7 mana to do its thing in one turn and thats assuming there isn't an extra tutor cost added in not to mention the delay of all of your lands entering tapped (mostly).

The mana fixing to get all of the colors to function is also probably going to be a problem.

I would say at best its a cheap gimmick. It looks slow though and there are actually a lot of things that will make the deck irrelevant. Its probably a cheap glass cannon but I wouldn't say its good, fast, or competitive.

And I wouldn't say it's good, fast, or competitive. I made a point of singling out that it kind of sucks, and how that's part of the problem with it.

This format has a place for non interactive fast combos, cEDH. It has a place for strong combos and synergies. The problem with a crappy glass cannon is that it creates a garbage play pattern. Such a deck either does nothing, or it gets a cheap win. Both states are bad. Cheap wins piss people off, but a deck folding to a disenchant sucks as well. No good comes from crap like this.

There's a very limited place for it in the format, and that's established playgroups where you aren't trying to just spring it on people. If it ever caught on, people would just hate out the pilot the moment they dropped one of those lands, the format would easily correct it. But that doesn't make it any less of a tool deck.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@onering

Look, you're calling people a tool for playing something you don't like (not terribly sociable behavior, may I add). I don't think the belcher thing is cute or funny or effective either, but I take issue with you assuming some sense of superiority and issuing a "PSA" to complain in THX stereo. Calling people names is not a public service, you're not promoting a common good. You're spitting dumb venom into the void, and in doing so, somehow flattering yourself. Get a grip.

It's a dumb fad deck. It won't last out the year, don't panic.

[Rumpy5897]

What a positive thread

Belcher isn't even the correct meme to do with ZNR lands. That would be Balustrade Spy. You mill yourself and Dread Return a Thassa's Oracle (off Narcomoeba, Fatestitcher, Gravecrawler), easy game. Takes five mana to do, and that's the whole table down. Even then, compare this to existing Hermit Druid shells.

As for avoiding undesirable decks, pretty much the only reliable answer is creating a playgroup of like-minded individuals. Think there were some Nexus attempts at doing that, I didn't pay much attention as I've already got a group of my own. Even encountering randoms on Cockatrice or somewhere should eventually lead to a serviceable selection of play partners - the dingus who opens a "casual no inf" room only to blast Armageddon gets ignore listed, while the friendly person with a cool deck ends up on the friend list for subsequent rematches.

[cryogen]

Please don't add sarcasm and snideness to your main points. It detracts from your message and is entirely unnecessary.

[ISBPathfinder]

And I wouldn't say it's good, fast, or competitive. I made a point of singling out that it kind of sucks, and how that's part of the problem with it.

This format has a place for non interactive fast combos, cEDH. It has a place for strong combos and synergies. The problem with a crappy glass cannon is that it creates a garbage play pattern. Such a deck either does nothing, or it gets a cheap win. Both states are bad. Cheap wins piss people off, but a deck folding to a disenchant sucks as well. No good comes from crap like this.

There's a very limited place for it in the format, and that's established playgroups where you aren't trying to just spring it on people. If it ever caught on, people would just hate out the pilot the moment they dropped one of those lands, the format would easily correct it. But that doesn't make it any less of a tool deck.

I guess from where I stand I question how this is different than someone playing gates, Aetherflux Reservoir, or Approach of the Second Sun to name a few of MANY alt wincons.

This one requires you to build your deck in a very punishing way (it would need to be five color with a very weird and bad landbase that will punish your ability to play spells on color on time). It also only has one payoff and that payoff is slow. I don't particularly think that it is better than a lot of the alt wincons we already had and it is very punishing on the build. Even when it works, it can only kill one player a turn.

I guess, I just don't really mind that much. Sure these new flip lands could enable a new combo deck but I think its kind of not worth doing to be honest. Why build around a bad wincon when you could just put a single card in a reasonably built deck and have your entire deck not be a hot mess. I guess from where I stand the payoff just doesn't make sense given the build constraints. Its not that good and it really screws with your deck a LOT to do it. You could probably instead build Kenrith, the Returned King and slot in Felidar Sovereign and Angel of Destiny and you would still have a deck that functions with just a few things that might kill opponents / win the game.

Having something different is admirable, I just think that the payoff is incredibly narrow and its going to throw off the entire pace of the deck trying to make use of the flip to land cards which provide mono colored mana in a five color deck and that isn't even mentioning how all of them enter tapped with five of them being able to be untapped. Also 30 lands is beyond sketchy when trying to get to seven mana so a bunch of mana rocks will probably need to be added and a lot of mulligans taken.

[onering]

@onering

Look, you're calling people a tool for playing something you don't like (not terribly sociable behavior, may I add). I don't think the belcher thing is cute or funny or effective either, but I take issue with you assuming some sense of superiority and issuing a "PSA" to complain in THX stereo. Calling people names is not a public service, you're not promoting a common good. You're spitting dumb venom into the void, and in doing so, somehow flattering yourself. Get a grip.

It's a dumb fad deck. It won't last out the year, don't panic.

Wow, this did seem to upset you for some reason. Yeah, running crap like this is toolish behavior. Most people learn pretty quickly its unacceptable as it gets hated out. It'll be gone by January. Yeah, its not really a public service, its a sarcastic way of complaining about the lowest form of deck building and explaining why I think its crappy and why springing it on people is crappy behavior. For someone who uses sarcasm, its incredible that you can't seem to detect it. I'm not sure why you feel white knighting this crap is useful, but you do you.

Warning for ignoring a moderator request. - Airi

[onering]

And I wouldn't say it's good, fast, or competitive. I made a point of singling out that it kind of sucks, and how that's part of the problem with it.

This format has a place for non interactive fast combos, cEDH. It has a place for strong combos and synergies. The problem with a crappy glass cannon is that it creates a garbage play pattern. Such a deck either does nothing, or it gets a cheap win. Both states are bad. Cheap wins piss people off, but a deck folding to a disenchant sucks as well. No good comes from crap like this.

There's a very limited place for it in the format, and that's established playgroups where you aren't trying to just spring it on people. If it ever caught on, people would just hate out the pilot the moment they dropped one of those lands, the format would easily correct it. But that doesn't make it any less of a tool deck.

I guess from where I stand I question how this is different than someone playing gates, Aetherflux Reservoir, or Approach of the Second Sun to name a few of MANY alt wincons.

This one requires you to build your deck in a very punishing way (it would need to be five color with a very weird and bad landbase that will punish your ability to play spells on color on time). It also only has one payoff and that payoff is slow. I don't particularly think that it is better than a lot of the alt wincons we already had and it is very punishing on the build. Even when it works, it can only kill one player a turn.

I guess, I just don't really mind that much. Sure these new flip lands could enable a new combo deck but I think its kind of not worth doing to be honest. Why build around a bad wincon when you could just put a single card in a reasonably built deck and have your entire deck not be a hot mess. I guess from where I stand the payoff just doesn't make sense given the build constraints. Its not that good and it really screws with your deck a LOT to do it. You could probably instead build Kenrith, the Returned King and slot in Felidar Sovereign and Angel of Destiny and you would still have a deck that functions with just a few things that might kill opponents / win the game.

Having something different is admirable, I just think that the payoff is incredibly narrow and its going to throw off the entire pace of the deck trying to make use of the flip to land cards which provide mono colored mana in a five color deck and that isn't even mentioning how all of them enter tapped with five of them being able to be untapped. Also 30 lands is beyond sketchy when trying to get to seven mana so a bunch of mana rocks will probably need to be added and a lot of mulligans taken.

I feel there's a distinct difference between alt wincon decks and glass canon meme decks. Building a reasonable deck around an alt wincon is still just building a reasonable deck. You still seek to interact with opponents and actually play magic, you just look to win a different way. A glass cannon deck puts all its eggs in one fragile basket that either wins or does nothing. This imposes a bad play pattern on the entire group. I do have a problem with all in combos decks that seek to goldfish but aren't actually good enough to be competitive, because they specialize in bringing these play patterns to environments they don't belong in. At casual tables, you don't want to spend the early game just focusing on killing the guy running the meme deck. By running it, your forcing the table to act against asocial norm of casual games (don't just target one guy out of the gate). You take a deck that lays down a gauntlet that says "either don't let me play, or lose to cheese" to a format based on letting people play. There's a place for such decks, at the higher end of power levels where not letting people play is an accepted strategy, but decks like spell lands belcher get rolled there so its not where they show up. Instead, they show up where they can exploit the social norms of the group to live long enough to get a table flip win. That's why I say its tool behavior. Its using the unwillingness of casual tables to ruin your fun by just preventing you from playing your deck to enable your own deck to ruin their fun by getting off a cheesy glass cannon combo that has no chance otherwise. There is the possibility that someone brings it without realizing how it will play out, in which case maybe they won't if they know how %$#% it is.

As I said, this isn't the only time this has happened, and I'm generally burned out on meme of the week decks like this. Coalition Victory and Worldfire are banned partly because they create gameplay like this, but those are extreme examples. Nothing in this deck is worthy of a ban, the deck just achieves Coalition Victory levels of obnoxiousness. You're right that the payoff doesn't make sense given the constraints, which is a big part of why I say its a problem. Because it is, at its core, a crappy deck, you can't build it to play the long game, you can't build it as an interactive deck that plays the game until it can drop its wincon. Instead, it gets built to be as streamlined and focused on getting the combo as possible, which still isn't good enough to be competitive. but still enough to win if ignored. Yet, when not ignored, the deck does nothing. It creates a situation where either the table has their fun ruined by a table flip win, or the pilot does because they don't get to play.

So I'm only partly venting about this specific asinine meme deck, and partly venting about this style of deck. I think Golos should be banned because it produces the same play patterns while actually being good enough to be a dominant commander in casual games. I hate Aetherflux reservoir but don't yet think it should be banned (though I think its incredibly cheesy, it at least does something if you don't automatically win with it, and decks that run it actually play the game in order to set it up). I think Anje Falkenrath glass cannon combo is a terrible deck that causes the same issues this belcher deck does, for the same reasons, and consider her one of the biggest commander design failures.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@onering

Look, you're calling people a tool for playing something you don't like (not terribly sociable behavior, may I add). I don't think the belcher thing is cute or funny or effective either, but I take issue with you assuming some sense of superiority and issuing a "PSA" to complain in THX stereo. Calling people names is not a public service, you're not promoting a common good. You're spitting dumb venom into the void, and in doing so, somehow flattering yourself. Get a grip.

It's a dumb fad deck. It won't last out the year, don't panic.

Wow, this did seem to upset you for some reason. Yeah, running crap like this is toolish behavior. Most people learn pretty quickly its unacceptable as it gets hated out. It'll be gone by January. Yeah, its not really a public service, its a sarcastic way of complaining about the lowest form of deck building and explaining why I think its crappy and why springing it on people is crappy behavior. For someone who uses sarcasm, its incredible that you can't seem to detect it. I'm not sure why you feel white knighting this crap is useful, but you do you.

So you're going to double down on being a jerk as a way to disincentivize other people from being jerks? Gotcha. Let me know how that works out for you long term. I'm sure you'll make lots of friends.

For the record, I catch your drift. Nothing you've written has sailed over my head. You're just acting childish, and I'm baffled as to why you'd sink to this over some belcher nonsense. You can just wait a month and still get what you want without using this thread to %$#% and moan about a niche deck you probably still beat 9/10 times anyway. Instead you want to call people names because you'd rather be self-righteous than self-aware. Good luck, man.

Warning for ignoring a moderator request. - Airi

[ISBPathfinder]

@onering I guess I get where you are coming from. I myself play Anje but as a draw / go control deck rather than a combo deck. I guess Glint-Horn Buccaneer is sort of combo but it isn't an infinite and its unlikely that I one shot people when it comes down. I still don't know what this boogyman Anje list is other than assuming its some sort of Doomsday combo.

I get the combo frustration though. I have been recently trying to crack down on combo decks in a way other than just playing more blue control and its tough. Commander has always been in somewhat of an arms race and every time someone new comes into the format they get the fun of learning all of the social norms of this format all over again.

[darrenhabib]

Looks like a good place to advertise my All Spells and "No Lands" deck for those wanting to have a fun new twist on some older concepts.

All Spells and "No Lands" Deck List

[onering]

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting. At least you actually run some interaction, but it still looks really groan inducing to play against.

[onering]

@onering I guess I get where you are coming from. I myself play Anje but as a draw / go control deck rather than a combo deck. I guess Glint-Horn Buccaneer is sort of combo but it isn't an infinite and its unlikely that I one shot people when it comes down. I still don't know what this boogyman Anje list is other than assuming its some sort of Doomsday combo.

I get the combo frustration though. I have been recently trying to crack down on combo decks in a way other than just playing more blue control and its tough. Commander has always been in somewhat of an arms race and every time someone new comes into the format they get the fun of learning all of the social norms of this format all over again.

See, that's not a problem to me. I don't have a list, but I can describe the Anje list I take issue with, which is just play Anje and free cycle madness cards until you can't or until you draw Glinthorn, the combo off. Add in some card draw and tutors to make it more consistent. The only interaction is provided by the few relevant madness cards, but only comes up if you happen to have the mana and a target while they usually just get discarded. Its a full glass cannon that seeks to do just one thing and becomes trash if the combo is answered (and from what I've seen that nets a concede). You build Anje as draw go control, I have no beef, even if the combo exists in it incidentally. My issue is with decks that seek to goldfish as fast as possible being brought to casual tables.

Even then, I said before that there's nothing wrong with building one and letting your playgroup know that you built a meme deck and your going to try to go off with it. Groups can be cool with it, and you're not just trying to score a cheap win from surprising a table that expects an interactive game. My issue comes with the way I typically run into these decks, which is when they are sprung on casual tables and just end good games with full cheese. Part of it is I disdain the sort of player that does that and complains about being targeted when you do anything to disrupt them because "they aren't doing anything". These meme decks live and die based off of taking advantage of social norms. I saw it a lot with Shrine decks recently as well, with people running Sisay to tutor them out, complaining whenever people hate their stuff out because they aren't running Sisay combo, just goofy shrines. The thing is, just letting them play solitaire lets the deck get way out of hand (until someone ends their deck with Austere Command), so you need to prevent them from playing the deck, mainly by not letting Sisay stick. That's the problem with the play pattern, if you leave them alone that what they are trying to do can get out of hand very quickly or just win out of nowhere. But if you do what you need to in order to stop that, you shut them out of the game and they get salty. That's the kind of deck that prompted this thread, the ones that basically tell the table not to let them play.

[BaronCappuccino]

Making smart plays that unintentionally keep these sorts of decks from doing anything at all should be the only answer this problem requires. My deck, a Shadowborn Apostle combo deck, hedges pretty close to this sort of problem, but I would never expect anything less than smart plays from my opponents, so I continue to improve its resiliency. Glass cannoneers can either adapt or play another deck.

[MrMystery314]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

[onering]

Making smart plays that unintentionally keep these sorts of decks from doing anything at all should be the only answer this problem requires. My deck, a Shadowborn Apostle combo deck, hedges pretty close to this sort of problem, but I would never expect anything less than smart plays from my opponents, so I continue to improve its resiliency. Glass cannoneers can either adapt or play another deck.

I half agree. Smart plays keep these decks from doing anything, but it's not unintentionally. You answer their one way of winning you know that you've either shut them down entirely or that they have a way to get it back, in which case you plan on stopping that as well. I do agree that it's a matter of adapt the deck to be more interactive and resilient or play a different deck for the glass cannoneers, but it still isn't a good idea to build these in the first place. The smartest play is unfortunately just to kill them asap. Waiting to answer their combo leaves you in the bad position of having to decide whether to hold your answer for their inevitable cheese or to use it to keep another player from getting too far ahead. On the other hand, these glass cannon decks don't run much in the way of interaction themselves so you can just attack them early and often until they are dead, which frees you up from having to be ready to answer their one trick. Unfortunately that tends to piss the pilot off, and that's not great. It again doubles back to stop that player from playing or lose, which is fine at higher levels of play but not something that should be sprung on casual tables.

[BaronCappuccino]

I get what you're saying- by unintentionally, I meant that if I were versing a deck that was trying to combo and I disrupt it, and the guy gets salty and says he can't even play anymore, it would be unintentional as I explain that I gave him too much credit and thought he knew how to make a deck. When you intend to stop a combo and you instead shut down a deck, you absolutely aren't at fault.

[onering]

I get what you're saying- by unintentionally, I meant that if I were versing a deck that was trying to combo and I disrupt it, and the guy gets salty and says he can't even play anymore, it would be unintentional as I explain that I gave him too much credit and thought he knew how to make a deck. When you intend to stop a combo and you instead shut down a deck, you absolutely aren't at fault.

Ok, I get what your saying now. Yeah, that's basically what I'm talking about. That's why I have a problem with that sort of deck in a casual meta, and glass cannons of mediocre power like Belcher only really have any chance in casual metas.

[maeos]

@onering i don't see how this landless deck is any different from any other combo deck. most of them sit there do nothing until it gets the card it needs and then asks if anyone has an answer before it wins which is what all combo decks do. I want to know where you draw the line that a combo is ok or not ok.

[onering]

@onering i don't see how this landless deck is any different from any other combo deck. most of them sit there do nothing until it gets the card it needs and then asks if anyone has an answer before it wins which is what all combo decks do. I want to know where you draw the line that a combo is ok or not ok.

Most combo decks run interaction and ways to win if their combo is answered. They actually do things besides tutor out their combo and fold if it gets answered. I thought that was a pretty clear line I drew. My issue is with glass cannon combo decks that do nothing but find their combo and either win or concede because someone had an answer. They don't stand a chance in metas where rushing a combo is expected, so they get played only in casual metas, and either take people by surprise, get lucky that nobody had an answer, or crap the bed and do nothing.

Other combo decks, really most combo decks, don't do this. Even cEDH decks whose primary line is to tutor out the combo ASAP and win. Combo decks range from good stuff decks that happen to have a combo in it, to control shells that include a combo or two as wincons, to high synergy decks that can achieve a critical mass, to glass cannons, to decks that run a strategy that happens to also support a particular combo, to cEDH decks that try to rush a combo but have back up plans (mostly tight control strategies and secondary, less efficient combos). The decks that try to rush a combo as plan A tend to be viable at higher levels of play, and at those levels people expect combo decks. Control decks that use a combo as a wincon play like any other control deck, and you go against them the same way. The combo tends to come later than from all in decks, and the pilot is actually playing the game up until that point. They have things they can do to stop other players from winning and to react to players trying to target the out. Good stuff decks that happen to run a combo also bring the combo out later, and they also actually play the game. Same thing with synergistic decks. They all have combos, but they they aren't rushing them in the early game, and the single combo isn't their only strategy so they don't just immediately fold if it gets answered.

Some glass cannons are strong enough to compete there, not in cEDH but in high powered casual, and those aren't a problem. Some glass cannons, like spell lands belcher, have no chance there so their pilots take them to mid power or lower casual games in the hopes of catching people by surprise and abusing the taboo against targeting out a single player that tends to exist at those power levels. Once people know what their deck does, that taboo goes out the window and the deck can't compete, so it dies out within a couple months. The reason these kinds of decks are a problem is that they create bad play patterns in casual groups regardless of whether they win. All combo decks are capable of getting off their combo early and making it a non game, and that always sucks, but most decks with combos in casual metas don't do that every game. People in casual metas sit down to actually play a game of commander, not to try to win as fast as possible. In cEDH and high power casual, the expectation is winning as fast as possible. That's fine, its just a different kind of game, and there's a reason many people maintain different power level decks and seek out both play styles separately. On the other hand, when the glass cannon doesn't win, the player sits either sits there all game and is irrelevant because they didn't draw the pieces or the tutors to get them, or they try to go off, get answered, and then fold. When they win, they make the game feel like a waste of time, when they lose they make their participation in the game feel like a waste of time.