Problem Commanders: Do You Play Them?

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Idk, I think white border Korvold has been a [certainly powerful], but not broken exercise. It's an example of having an avenue of build that doesn't just take over the whole game (any less than sticking grave pact|8ed in a deck with creatures could potentially skew things anyway. It doesn't just exist and then win like Omn4th (I like this and I'm gonna keep it), Chulane, and Golos do.

...That's what we're talking about, right? I kinda lost the plot when this nine month old thread was necro'd a few days ago.
I mean, a lot of these problematic commanders are a lot less frightening when the accompanying deck is built with self-imposed limitations. I've always respected your penchant for building white border/old border decks because they embrace the idea of powering down in unique and interesting ways while still capturing the core strengths of the general. I also saw an all common Korvold deck (aptly named "The Cure for the Common Korvold") that was actually pretty cool instead being the usual miserable slog.

The true problem is that most players have no sense of such restraint and certain generals break the game in half if you can't learn to pull your punches. High CMC tribal Golos seems fine; Field of the Dead Golos is a %$#% war crime.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Idk, I think white border Korvold has been a [certainly powerful], but not broken exercise. It's an example of having an avenue of build that doesn't just take over the whole game (any less than sticking grave pact|8ed in a deck with creatures could potentially skew things anyway. It doesn't just exist and then win like Omn4th (I like this and I'm gonna keep it), Chulane, and Golos do.

...That's what we're talking about, right? I kinda lost the plot when this nine month old thread was necro'd a few days ago.
I mean, a lot of these problematic commanders are a lot less frightening when the accompanying deck is built with self-imposed limitations. I've always respected your penchant for building white border/old border decks because they embrace the idea of powering down in unique and interesting ways while still capturing the core strengths of the general. I also saw an all common Korvold deck (aptly named "The Cure for the Common Korvold") that was actually pretty cool instead being the usual miserable slog.

The true problem is that most players have no sense of such restraint and certain generals break the game in half if you can't learn to pull your punches. High CMC tribal Golos seems fine; Field of the Dead Golos is a %$#% war crime.
Hmm. All commons Korvold. That's interesting. I'd be really sad about the lack of sweepers. What about pauper Golos? At least you'd get all the colours for the lack of sweepers.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Idk, I think white border Korvold has been a [certainly powerful], but not broken exercise. It's an example of having an avenue of build that doesn't just take over the whole game (any less than sticking grave pact|8ed in a deck with creatures could potentially skew things anyway. It doesn't just exist and then win like Omn4th (I like this and I'm gonna keep it), Chulane, and Golos do.

...That's what we're talking about, right? I kinda lost the plot when this nine month old thread was necro'd a few days ago.
I mean, a lot of these problematic commanders are a lot less frightening when the accompanying deck is built with self-imposed limitations
I think a lot more people kid themselves that the have a friendly golos deck or whatever then actually do. There are serious issues with playing high powered commanders in detuned decks because they create a weird dynamic where they can sometimes just make jank too good.

Imho korvold is actually one of the most egregious of those because he brings both lethal commander damage and card advantage so he's going to put a ton of pressure even if you're playing 40 copies of evolving wilds and the rest basic lands.

I did a sloppy experiment with this back before the companion nerf to show just how high the power floor was with kenrith and zirda. The 99 land deck didn't win any games but even against very strong decks it was always a factor.

So the caveat I'm bringing here is that I think playing a high power commander in a low powered meta is fraught with the possibility of bad games no matter what cards you play in the deck. Far easier to play a lower powered commander.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Hmm. All commons Korvold. That's interesting. I'd be really sad about the lack of sweepers. What about pauper Golos? At least you'd get all the colours for the lack of sweepers.
I mean, it wasn't perfect by any means, but it was fair and put up a good fight for what it was. IIRC, they were playing a pretty large quantity of spot removal to compensate for the absence of sweepers. There's enough Terror variants at common to keep obnoxious crap sufficiently policed.

Pauper Golos seems similarly fine, but in the words of Austin Powers, "It's not my bag, baby."
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

@pokken

I see what you're saying but in my experience the 99 does a lot to further break broken things. And in lieu of bannings which aren't coming, I think self-restraint and self-awareness are the next best options. It's a still Korvold deck, yes, but it was a deliberate and unique attempt to do something fairer and I can respect the effort to power down.

Also, just for context, this deck popped up in a meta with fairly high average power level with more than one standard-fare Korvolds running amok. It struck me as significant because it was different, not because it was Korvold. Could they have tried Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper with same concept? Sure. But they didn't and I'm not going to waste time speculating whether an already good experience could have been even better if some variables had shifted.

Edit: grammar/pronouns/verb-tense agreement
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
The true problem is that most players have no sense of such restraint and certain generals break the game in half if you can't learn to pull your punches. High CMC tribal Golos seems fine; Field of the Dead Golos is a %$#% war crime.
Fun fact: High CMC tribal golos was still too strong for chill games in my experience. I rarely activated him, I just used him to search for Cabal Coffers and that was still too game breaking. I received enough salt that I switched him to the 99.

I try to avoid problem commanders because they're usually way less exciting. I like winning with bad cards. Problem commanders are usually good cards. Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge isn't the closest I have but I rarely cast the prismatic bridge half of her which is the annoying half. The most standard commanders I have are The Ur-Dragon and Gishath, Sun's Avatar.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
The true problem is that most players have no sense of such restraint and certain generals break the game in half if you can't learn to pull your punches. High CMC tribal Golos seems fine; Field of the Dead Golos is a %$#% war crime.
Fun fact: High CMC tribal golos was still too strong for chill games in my experience. I rarely activated him, I just used him to search for Cabal Coffers and that was still too game breaking. I received enough salt that I switched him to the 99.
Well, color me with crayons and call me stupid. I'm not having a good day with my examples today lol. Admittedly, I play in a pretty powerful meta so maybe I just have no idea what exactly constitutes true "casual" play anymore. Oh well.
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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Well, color me with crayons and call me stupid. I'm not having a good day with my examples today lol. Admittedly, I play in a pretty powerful meta so maybe I just have no idea what exactly constitutes true "casual" play anymore. Oh well.
Lol, that's a very amusing response. I was on PlayEDH's "low" server. Which had widely different power levels still. I had a philosophy that everyone hated golos so if I played a card in the deck that ruined the game I'd immediately cut it. I ended up having to shave off so many cards that I eventually just cut Golos instead. In a higher powered meta the deck probably wouldn't be have been functional. I couldn't hit that fine line of low power level I wanted.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
I couldn't hit that fine line of low power level I wanted.
Pretty much Golos in a nutshell unfortunately.

I had the same experience with Maelstrom Wanderer trying to play with what I'd consider mid-powered decks, once MW got online it would romp the table by itself even in a pretty bad deck of dumb elementals. and of course I had 5 different golos decks that were each overpowering in their own stupid way.

It's a lot easier to get fine grained control of your power level by changing cards in the 99 than it is to warp the entire deck around making golos not busted.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Imagine warping an idea of power level around an idea as ostentatious as PlayEDH, and then thinking it has any prevalence outside of their convoluted, inbred idea of a "metagame".

....you can tell I think very low of them. Maybe cause they banned me because I said "Armageddon is a fair and reasonable card".

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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Imagine warping an idea of power level around an idea as ostentatious as PlayEDH, and then thinking it has any prevalence outside of their convoluted, inbred idea of a "metagame".

....you can tell I think very low of them. Maybe cause they banned me because I said "Armageddon is a fair and reasonable card".
:rofl:

Oh 3drinks. Never change. 👍

~~~~~~~~~~

Some of the Commanders I run / have at least built are probably in the problematic pile. Kaalia, Narset, OG Jhoira, Koma, Yuriko (?), etc. There's a few.

Decks don't stick around for me unless there's some flavor going on. Yes, Narset voltron would be much more effective with Eldrazi Conscription, but what flavor sense does that make, that a dragon-inspired monk seeking enlightenment would seek reality-warping, (in some sense of the phrase) universe calorie-consuming power? I try to self-regulate power to an extent this way, through enough flavorful choices that the deck is interesting yet still powerful enough. Or other subtle choices, like in Kaalia. The true Spike mentality would be to have the most efficient, effective A/D/D creatures, but personally I like the symmetry of running equal numbers of each.

The extent to which that and I succeed in this regard is up for debate. /shrug.

Due to personal life things, I do like having powerful creations of my own that are still flavorful / unique / my own / etc. So I am a bit more drawn to powerful Commanders. To be fair, if one approaches the levels of Korvold, Chulane, Ghave, etc where they break or combo with things by simply existing and breathing, that's just boring. That particular point seems to be fairly common. $0.02
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Imagine warping an idea of power level around an idea as ostentatious as PlayEDH, and then thinking it has any prevalence outside of their convoluted, inbred idea of a "metagame".

....you can tell I think very low of them. Maybe cause they banned me because I said "Armageddon is a fair and reasonable card".
But Armageddon IS fair and reasonable, no? Most people just don't have an inkling on how to use it efficiently.

If ramp is ok, then so is LD. If mass draw is ok, then so is hand-denial (Hullbreacher being blue is a mistake though).

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
But Armageddon IS fair and reasonable, no? Most people just don't have an inkling on how to use it efficiently.
Is it really a fair card for 4 mana? I'd argue against that. Breaking symmetry is incredibly easy and you're virtually guaranteed a ~ 3 for 1 out of it anyway.

Feels more like a 6 mana effect minimum to me (as evidenced by the fact that it's never been reprinted at 4 in the modern era to my knowledge?).

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Post by materpillar » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Imagine warping an idea of power level around an idea as ostentatious as PlayEDH, and then thinking it has any prevalence outside of their convoluted, inbred idea of a "metagame".
I didn't want to pubstomp random strangers who were explicitly looking for a casual game with a surprise Golos. I feel morally and ethically bankrupt. Anyway, my experience is that people on PlayEDH were slightly more spiky than at a random LGS. I expect that my golos deck would do even better against a casual random table than it was on PlayEDH and now that deck is no longer helmed by golos so I have to worry less about it.

Amusingly enough I think you'd like PlayEDH now. They have a "high" power level that is explicitly ok with Armageddon and all the staxy color hate you love. I haven't been on there in months since I connected with some old friends online. I play with them now instead.

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Post by JWK » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Amusingly enough I think you'd like PlayEDH now. They have a "high" power level that is explicitly ok with Armageddon and all the staxy color hate you love. I haven't been on there in months since I connected with some old friends online. I play with them now instead.
Armageddon is even okay in low as a one-of effect to close out the game. MLD and heavy stax are fine in mid and high.

Personally, while they are kind of quirky and not entirely consistent, I mostly like the PlayEDH the tiers. They replace Rule 0 for random pick-up games.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Imagine warping an idea of power level around an idea as ostentatious as PlayEDH, and then thinking it has any prevalence outside of their convoluted, inbred idea of a "metagame".

....you can tell I think very low of them. Maybe cause they banned me because I said "Armageddon is a fair and reasonable card".
But Armageddon IS fair and reasonable, no? Most people just don't have an inkling on how to use it efficiently.

If ramp is ok, then so is LD. If mass draw is ok, then so is hand-denial (Hullbreacher being blue is a mistake though).
Preaching to the choir here, and yes Hullbreacher should have been white.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
Preaching to the choir here, and yes Hullbreacher should have been white
Yeah it woudla been great if it were white since they would have absolutely nerfed the living crap out of it, just Alms Collector vs Notion Thief , Smothering Tithe** and Rhystic Study, and the entire other massive pile of trash that is white cards that are just worse versions of green and blue card


** Not that Smothering Tithe is bad, just that if it were blue it would cost 2U and prevent the draw if they don't pay :P

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Is it really a fair card for 4 mana? I'd argue against that. Breaking symmetry is incredibly easy and you're virtually guaranteed a ~ 3 for 1 out of it anyway.

Feels more like a 6 mana effect minimum to me (as evidenced by the fact that it's never been reprinted at 4 in the modern era to my knowledge?).
I wouldn't call it a 3-for-1 considering it's symmetrical. By that logic, an effect that says "everyone draws a card" would be getting 3-for-1ed (in the bad way). I'd always divide all enemy gains (or losses) by the number of opponents when determining how much of an x-for-1 a card is.

Imo it's less that the card is too good and more that the effect is too powerful. If they made Divine Intervention except it was just a 4 mana sorcery that tied the game immediately, that wouldn't be too good, exactly, but it would be extremely irritating to have such an impactful effect be so cheap and essentially impossible to interact with for most colors. Obviously armageddon isn't quite that bad, but imo it's pretty close.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

materpillar wrote:
2 years ago
Amusingly enough I think you'd like PlayEDH now. They have a "high" power level that is explicitly ok with Armageddon and all the staxy color hate you love. I haven't been on there in months since I connected with some old friends online. I play with them now instead.
It wouldn't matter because I got banned from their server in...oh gosh, it was before I moved in with my roommate. That puts it in the 2014 range? That sounds roughly accurate since that was also when I dabbled around in r/EDH before I realized what a cesspool that was.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
That sounds roughly accurate since that was also when I dabbled around in r/EDH before I realized what a cesspool that was.
It's okay, you don't need those fools and their mudpit of a forum. You have us now <3
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
But Armageddon IS fair and reasonable, no? Most people just don't have an inkling on how to use it efficiently.
Is it really a fair card for 4 mana? I'd argue against that. Breaking symmetry is incredibly easy and you're virtually guaranteed a ~ 3 for 1 out of it anyway.

Feels more like a 6 mana effect minimum to me (as evidenced by the fact that it's never been reprinted at 4 in the modern era to my knowledge?).
Armageddon being 4cc is fair because without ideal board state you would end up terminating your own gameplay by casting it too early. By the time you have the board to reasonable lock down the game (i.e. without annoying your playmates too long) you're probably beyond early stage.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Armageddon being 4cc is fair because without ideal board state you would end up terminating your own gameplay by casting it too early. By the time you have the board to reasonable lock down the game (i.e. without annoying your playmates too long) you're probably beyond early stage.
Armageddon was printed in alpha in the same set with Black Lotus and Cockatrice at rare so I would not attribute a ton of serious game balance considerations to its designers

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
Armageddon being 4cc is fair because without ideal board state you would end up terminating your own gameplay by casting it too early. By the time you have the board to reasonable lock down the game (i.e. without annoying your playmates too long) you're probably beyond early stage.
1) I had a Brimaz, King of Oreskos deck back in the day that would sometimes cast geddon on turn 4-5 once I had down Brimaz plus an anthem and/or planeswalker. Not a guaranteed win ofc, but I'm the only one pooping out dudes for free.

2) "Without annoying your playmates" is a terrible rationalization. Many people either do not care, or are not aware, about what will annoy the other players. For that matter, if I think it's the right play then hell yeah I'm going to make the right play. Sometimes that means playing it on turn 4.

3) The cost being low makes it much more trivial to "lock down the game" on a later turn. If the person before you wipes, you can untap, cast any random planeswalker, and geddon feeling reasonably secure that your walker will be able to go to town.

4) Casting it later really doesn't do much to ameliorate what makes the card miserable in the first place. Some effects just shouldn't exist imo, at least not in a form that 4/5 colors can't effectively interact with.
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Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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motleyslayer
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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I generally tend to not play my decks people hate playing against as much for a few reasons. I hated becoming the target all the time and I started having more fun building random commander decks out of stuff I had . People hated my Sharuum the Hegemon deck despite it not being optimized, so I played that less and don't play my Kess, Dissident Mage deck as much (but still more than sharuum)

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I think that every meta can have a different bar as to what is a problem. We can point at several commanders who historically provide to be a problem for multiple metas but sort of what I am getting at is that the type of build and efficiency of a deck can play heavily towards if it is a problem in a meta as well as what level and type of decks your opponents run.

A very well built and tuned deck that is not one of the normally named problem commanders can also be a problem in a meta is what I am trying to say. I think to some degree the problem is playing on a different level than your opponents. Its hard to always be on the same page to be honest but I think one of the biggest issues is that people don't talk more before the game starts about what level they are playing. I think if there was a social discussion where players revealed commanders and you could repick based on not being on the same page would be helpful but also allow counter play.

Even if someone wants to play a combo / LD deck its not that big of a deal if you know beforehand and get to pick something power appropriate to play along / against that. Nobody wants to play their casual wurm deck into a highly tuned deck.
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