Problem Commanders: Do You Play Them?

[Myllior]

I've only built one I'd consider notably egregious: Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. I'd wanted to build a Honden deck for an age before Sisay existed, so I jumped on it when she was spoiled; it's also a good home for a few orphaned legendaries. The repeatable card advantage from Sisay becomes explosive in combination with Jegantha, the Wellspring and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician; in this combination I'd rank her in that problematic tier. Despite that, Shrines is a relatively weak win condition for Sisay, so I'll keep playing the deck. Also because I still haven't managed to get all 11 Shrines out at once, despite activating Sisay 13 times in a single turn (One always gets wheeled away or exiled before I can get them all).

While I do have a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck and a Kess, Dissident Mage deck, I'd rank these commanders as powerful but not problematic, largely because they're less able to completely carry a deck by virtue of the commander alone. (Derevi can to a degree in stax builds, which mine is not).

Overall though, I find the problematic commanders to be uninspiring and (most) decks helmed by them to be uninspired; in a format with self-expression as a major draw, these commanders tend to work against that. They also tend to be antithetical to a relaxed atmosphere which, while a relaxed game isn't always the goal, is certainly something that needs to be considered before bringing these commanders out.

[Dragonlover]

I run Golos because frankly, 19 wincons at the same time needs all the help it can get. Otherwise though, I'll happily go off the beaten track rather than just play whatever's generically good in the colours. You wouldn't catch me running Chulane unless it was something super weird build-wise, for example.

Dragonlover

[Cyberium]

I avoid building decks with commanders who are either too much of a value engine or enables combo too easily. It's always more refreshing to beat or be beaten by uniqueness rather than raw power.

Though, commanders like King Kenrith that has so many varieties and political applications is fine.

[JWK]

If I had a regular playgroup that might let me experiment with lower powered themes for problematic Generals, I might give it another go if one of them interested me (none have in the last few years - e.g. my Vampire deck is Garza Zol, Plague Queen to avoid the WBR Vampire stigma).

I have two vampire tribal decks, Garza Zol and Edgar. My Edgar deck is not an optimized Edgar deck, but ti's still Edgar, so it's still crazy good. My Garza Zol deck is one of my oldest decks, and it's still one of my more fun decks to play. It's actually a bit more optimized than Edgar (including all of the relevant ABUR duals and fetches) in certain ways, but it's also very much a theme deck, in that almost all of the non-land cards are vampires, refer directly to vampires or include names, imagery and so forth one associates with vampires and their abilities. It is one of my decks that doesn't even include Sol Ring, because traditionally, vampires don't tend to be about the sun. It isn't as explosive as Edgar, but it still wins more than its share of games, and I like it quite a bit.

[materpillar]

I run Golos because frankly, 19 wincons at the same time needs all the help it can get. Otherwise though, I'll happily go off the beaten track rather than just play whatever's generically good in the colours. You wouldn't catch me running Chulane unless it was something super weird build-wise, for example.

Dragonlover

To be fair, golos is on theme in that deck with Maze's End. Also, that deck is awesome and one of the only cool golos decks I've seen.

[plushpenguin]

I only built Yuriko, and that one is full-blown comp, so I'm not concerned about it.

I have a super optimized deck that is well suited to completely destroying these types of decks before they get their degenerate engines operational that is not among the recent brokenstuff printed.

[RxPhantom]

I build around commanders that seem mechanically interesting to me. There's no criteria for it; I just know it when I see it. The only through line is that I don't like commanders where the decks practically build themselves. Feather, the Redeemed is probably the poster child for this kind of thing. I did, however, build a Yarok, the Desecrated deck, and...I love it and I have a blast playing it.

[5colorsrainbow]

I pick commanders either by if I like them as a character or if they can helm a deck I wanna play. While power-level is a thought, a lot of the commander I use that are popular (not sure how much crosses over with what people could say are problem commander) are;

Yuriko- For ninja tribal.

Lord Windgrace- I wanted to play a land creatures deck and he's the best for that so far.

Teysa- I love the character and I liked the idea of a deck that used Doomed/Afterlife kinda creatures.

Gishath- For Dinosaur tribal.

Feather- Loved the character, was #1 on my list of characters that hadn't given a card to yet and had a strictly non-combat related ability.

While its not up, I did buy the Chulane deck since I saw at Walmart at a grossly under price (was bumped up when I came back and looked) and I was trying to make adventure work in commander and liked Chulane since he could bounce my adventure creatures back to recast them and was in the adventure support colors. Adventures atm don't work how I want them too yet so the deck isn't running but I have the part kinda hoping we will see more adventure cards (or better yet adventure cards in return to eldraine) and have it running.

In a draft with friend I got Golos that I'm thinking to use as a 5 color commander but mostly being 5color and can help with color fixing but likely use someone else if a more in theme commander comes in.

[Sinis]

My group played some briefly; we were excited about the 'synergies' from Korvold ("wouldn't this be WILD with Brass's Bounty?!"), and things went downhill from there. We played Golos, Uro, etc. Definitely maindecked Urza.

We talked about it and agreed that we'd step back. One of us still runs Muldrotha, but it's an all-permanent Mutate themed deck and not at all overpowered (no LED, many of the usual suspects missing). We just weren't having games we wanted to play, where one player would basically bring a gun to a knife fight. I'm currently building DOM Jhoira, but, I doubt it'll be as powerful as all that.

None of us ever played Chulane, though. #### that guy.

[toctheyounger]

I'm actually gonna go ahead and suggest that Xyris, the Writhing Storm and Kalamax, the Stormsire should be on the watch list here too. In my experience playing against them I've yet to have a game against the snakes go longer than turn 6 before the board is overrun and the game is over for everyone, and the dinosaur has predominantly been 'I'll have all of the plays all of the time'. They're both great cards but they're both extremely tedious to play against in my experience. They give similar vibes to the commabders mentioned thus far - if you don't nuke them into the ground you're not going to be playing long.

Feel free to disagree, this is just what I've seen.

[JWK]

Xyris seems to be one of those commanders that lends itself to very powerful, but also very tedious and linear, builds, and which people tend to play for a bit and then quickly tire of. I hope people tire of it, because it looks boring AF to play against.

With Kalamax, there are two problems. First, it's really easy to break with infinite Forking combos. Second, an possibly worse, the design of the card itself lends to Kalamaxs decks being built to take turns on everyone else's turns; to not build that way literally ignores the primary strength of the card, and sort of defeats the purpose of building the deck in the first place. I'm not sure it's Korvold/Chulane/Urza-level bad, but as a Kalamax player, I can definitely see how it could be a pain to play against. I have heard multiple players compare it to the heyday of Prophet of Kruphix.

[toctheyounger]

I hope people tire of it, because it looks boring AF to play against.

It is. You have a small window at the start of the game to remove it before the wheels start flying in, if you miss it you've got a horde of snakes to deal with. I think the concept is neat, just too easy to bust in a multiplayer format. It's not even that either side of the mechanic is particularly broken, it's just really quick, innately strong in the colours, and hits the ground very early.

I have heard multiple players compare it to the heyday of Prophet of Kruphix.

This seems accurate. I was contemplating building it myself, but honestly, I hated the games I played against it so much I can't bring myself to inflict it on other people willingly. I guess it's fine if you're happy with someone else having monopoly on most of the game, I just find it oppressive.

[ISBPathfinder]

Hmmmmmm I guess I am going to hope that there is sooooooooooooo much new content that I don't end up playing against that. Wheels are great. I just think I never want to see a commander give someone a reason to run more of them. Every time I have seen that it just....... isn't great.

I hate seeing the wheels.deck because it becomes a question of who has the most tempo they can drop in play. With making a ton of snakes you might have had a wrath but if you didn't cast it immediately you might not have a wrath anymore. That sounds...... awful.

[JWK]

Hmmmmmm I guess I am going to hope that there is sooooooooooooo much new content that I don't end up playing against that. Wheels are great. I just think I never want to see a commander give someone a reason to run more of them. Every time I have seen that it just....... isn't great.

I kinda like Rielle, as she does something a bit different and more interesting with wheels. Not enough to bother making a Rielle deck, mind you, but I haven't hated the couple games I've played against them.

[toctheyounger]

I hate seeing the wheels.deck because it becomes a question of who has the most tempo they can drop in play. With making a ton of snakes you might have had a wrath but if you didn't cast it immediately you might not have a wrath anymore. That sounds...... awful.

This is exactly it, it becomes a race to an answer/Xyris for the game.

Kalamax I guess is a little different, less that it's extremely powerful and more that it simply shan't relinquish priority, nor access to the stack for even a single second. It is strong, it's just more an 'I could've not joined this game and saved myself the waste of time' sort of thing.

[Dragoon]

For Kalamax, I guess it depends on how heavy you are on ramp and untap shenanigans? I've never played with or against him, but if its controller has as much mana as everybody else, I don't think it will be too obnoxious to play against. It will just basically "spread out" its own turn among the end step of the other players. I could be wrong though, obviously.

[JWK]

For Kalamax, I guess it depends on how heavy you are on ramp and untap shenanigans? I've never played with or against him, but if its controller has as much mana as everybody else, I don't think it will be too obnoxious to play against. It will just basically "spread out" its own turn among the end step of the other players. I could be wrong though, obviously.

My Kalamax deck isn't even close to optimized and actively avoids the easy and obvious infinite combos, but it does include Wilderness Reclamation and Seedborn Muse, so it does a pretty good job of having its own turn and being very active on others' turns as well. As noted above, a lot of people compare playing against it to playing against Prophet of Kruphix back in the day.

[Dragoon]

For Kalamax, I guess it depends on how heavy you are on ramp and untap shenanigans? I've never played with or against him, but if its controller has as much mana as everybody else, I don't think it will be too obnoxious to play against. It will just basically "spread out" its own turn among the end step of the other players. I could be wrong though, obviously.

My Kalamax deck isn't even close to optimized and actively avoids the easy and obvious infinite combos, but it does include Wilderness Reclamation and Seedborn Muse, so it does a pretty good job of having its own turn and being very active on others' turns as well. As noted above, a lot of people compare playing against it to playing against Prophet of Kruphix back in the day.

Sure you can play those cards, but you don't have to. If you want to play Kalamax without being obnoxious, I think you must build it "fair". It's the same rules for all of those problematic commanders. You can actively build them to be fair, just like you can build a non-combo Ghave deck. You just have to be conscious about it when building. Although that's coming from someone who is 0% Spike and doesn't care at all if he wins or loses as long as the game is enjoyable so YMMV.

[JWK]

For Kalamax, I guess it depends on how heavy you are on ramp and untap shenanigans? I've never played with or against him, but if its controller has as much mana as everybody else, I don't think it will be too obnoxious to play against. It will just basically "spread out" its own turn among the end step of the other players. I could be wrong though, obviously.

My Kalamax deck isn't even close to optimized and actively avoids the easy and obvious infinite combos, but it does include Wilderness Reclamation and Seedborn Muse, so it does a pretty good job of having its own turn and being very active on others' turns as well. As noted above, a lot of people compare playing against it to playing against Prophet of Kruphix back in the day.

Sure you can play those cards, but you don't have to. If you want to play Kalamax without being obnoxious, I think you must build it "fair". It's the same rules for all of those problematic commanders. You can actively build them to be fair, just like you can build a non-combo Ghave deck. You just have to be conscious about it when building. Although that's coming from someone who is 0% Spike and doesn't care at all if he wins or loses as long as the game is enjoyable so YMMV.

Sure, you can do that. You can also do creatureless Chulane and Korvold spellslinger, but why?

Kalamax encourages people to play lots of instants, and if you aren't going to build around that, why not build something else? It's not like Temur lacks for options. The problem is, if you do build around Kalamax as it is designed, you are going to build so you can cast instants on other people's turns, because that's a big part of what instants are about. And then by doing that, it's going to be somewhat obnoxious.

[Outcryqq]

I have a nasty Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain cEDH deck that I only bring out if someone is pub-stomping the casual crowd at my LGS.

I have a Kenrith, the Returned King deck that I purposely watered down, with a terrible mana base and an "activated abilities tribal" theme. It's decent, nothing more.

[Dragoon]

My Kalamax deck isn't even close to optimized and actively avoids the easy and obvious infinite combos, but it does include Wilderness Reclamation and Seedborn Muse, so it does a pretty good job of having its own turn and being very active on others' turns as well. As noted above, a lot of people compare playing against it to playing against Prophet of Kruphix back in the day.

Sure you can play those cards, but you don't have to. If you want to play Kalamax without being obnoxious, I think you must build it "fair". It's the same rules for all of those problematic commanders. You can actively build them to be fair, just like you can build a non-combo Ghave deck. You just have to be conscious about it when building. Although that's coming from someone who is 0% Spike and doesn't care at all if he wins or loses as long as the game is enjoyable so YMMV.

Sure, you can do that. You can also do creatureless Chulane and Korvold spellslinger, but why?

Kalamax encourages people to play lots of instants, and if you aren't going to build around that, why not build something else? It's not like Temur lacks for options. The problem is, if you do build around Kalamax as it is designed, you are going to build so you can cast instants on other people's turns, because that's a big part of what instants are about. And then by doing that, it's going to be somewhat obnoxious.

I'm not telling you not to play instants, I'm telling you not to play Wilderness Reclamation or Seedborn Muse and the like. You don't need those to play a spellslinger deck. U/R Spellslinger decks cannot play those cards and they're doing just fine. Why can't you do the same by simply adding green instants to the mix? You can have a strong theme and even build around the general without it being obnoxious. Just refrain from going over the top by adding what is not needed to make the deck work. You don't need Seedborn Muse in Kalamax juste like you don't need Expropriate in Golos or Cyclonic Rift in Chulane or whatever.

[JWK]

Then why play Kalamax at all if you aren't going to include the things green brings to the table that can add to spellslinger? Sure, green has some good instants, but the untap effects are one of the parts of Green's arsenal that most benefits spellslinger, and probably the most unique thing they bring to the table. If you aren't going to play those, why build Kalamax rather than just playing Kess or any of the various Izzet spellslinger options?

I mean, sure, you can build with one hand tied behind your back, but if you have to do that to be "fair" then maybe the problem is in the card design. Kalamax is so pushed and in such a powerful color identity that it is really easy to break just by playing cards that are natural includes in the deck. And this is part of the overall problem of legendary designs today, which is more or less what this thread is about. Too many cards released over the past few years are so pushed that they are too easy to break.

Kalamax is, essentially, half of Riku, but that half is pushed to the limit by letting you copy things at no cost. That makes it a lot more broken than Riku, even though it actually does fewer things.

[pokken]

Kalamax is, essentially, half of Riku, but that half is pushed to the limit by letting you copy things at no cost.

..with a wincon stapled to him that lets you basically just play removal spells as your wincon, because he gets so big he can one shot people. For cheaper with a better initial body.

Power creep is fun

[Dragoon]

Then why play Kalamax at all if you aren't going to include the things green brings to the table that can add to spellslinger? Sure, green has some good instants, but the untap effects are one of the parts of Green's arsenal that most benefits spellslinger. If you aren't going to play those, why build Kalamax rather than just playing Kess or any of the various Izzet spellslinger options?

I mean, sure, you can build with one hand tied behind your back, but if you have to do that to be "fair" then maybe the problem is in the card design. Kalamax is so pushed and in such a powerful color identity that it is really easy to break just by playing cards that are natural includes in the deck. And this is part of the overall problem of legendary designs today, which is more or less what this thread is about. Too many cards released over the past few years are so pushed that they are too easy to break.

Kalamax is, essentially, half of Riku, but that half is pushed to the limit by letting you copy things at no cost. That makes it a lot more broken than Riku, even though it actually does fewer things.

Oh I am not denying they're as pushed as all get out. I'm just answering to the question: is it possible to play fair with them? And my answer is yes, as long you are willing to impose yourself some restrictions. I don't mind those commanders that much because they can enable stuff that just wouldn't be viable otherwise, and my playgroup tends to self-regulate. I'm someone who tends to favour synergy and theme over power, and if I were to play Kallamax, I would probably play 62 instants and 37 lands, or something like that. Just like I did an all-creatures Animar back in the day. They can be played fairly and in interesting ways, but I think they might be poison to any Spike player who will not enjoy not being able to play them to their full potential

[Airi]

I don't mind playing 'problematic' generals, and I'll gladly run them when they fit whatever it is I'm trying to do (or they've got pretty art ). Even in my current line up I have Kenrith/Golos/Jodah, and Yuriko. Kenrith/Golos/Jodah is actually a super fair deck, it's just legendary tribal. Yuriko was built to be a bit more problematic, because that's kind of the level I was aiming for, for that particular deck as most of my lists are on the low end of my friend's power levels. They're just cards at the end of the day, it's more on how they're used.

That said, I also don't mind when people build those types of generals in an 'oppressive' or otherwise strong manner, so I might have a bit of a warped view on it.