Is Vivien's Arkbow a good card?
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I looked at Vivien's Arkbow and thought of it as a fixed Survival of the Fittest without being as fragile as Fauna Shaman.
But the more I look at it the more I have trouble identifying a deck to put it into. Have you had any success with the card?
Some key difference:
1. it's top of library, not tutor
2. creature goes straight into play
3. you can discard any card
4. The creature can go into play at instant speed
I am realizing that maybe the best place to put this card is either in a deck that wants to discard (The Gitrog Monster) or a deck that plays at instant speed (hold up counter, activate arkbow end of turn).
It is really not for toolbox or combo decks where Survival shines.
Anyway, the card is dirt cheap now so thinking about how I could use it..
But the more I look at it the more I have trouble identifying a deck to put it into. Have you had any success with the card?
Some key difference:
1. it's top of library, not tutor
2. creature goes straight into play
3. you can discard any card
4. The creature can go into play at instant speed
I am realizing that maybe the best place to put this card is either in a deck that wants to discard (The Gitrog Monster) or a deck that plays at instant speed (hold up counter, activate arkbow end of turn).
It is really not for toolbox or combo decks where Survival shines.
Anyway, the card is dirt cheap now so thinking about how I could use it..
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme
I wanted to like the card, but I didn't end up using it anywhere. My main issue with the card is that it's very mana-intensive; you want X to be high so that you can dig deep and find a big creature, but then you're spending all your mana and aren't guaranteed a payoff. I suppose with enough topdeck manipulation it gets better, but that's a lot of work and at that point it's competing with other cards I consider better, like Chord of Calling, Green Sun's Zenith, or Genesis Wave. And while those are all one-shot spells, you're for sure getting a payoff, and when X is big like you'd usually want with the bow, your payoff can be game-ending with the cards I listed.
EDH decks and themes I'm currently playing!
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Tresserhorn (zombies, check out my primer!]) | Roon (blink) | Vial Smasher+Thrasios (big dudes) | Marath (tokens) | Jhoira (artifacts) | Thassa (sea monsters)
Jodah (flavor text tribal) | Slivers/Atogs/Allies/Spirits (5c tribal modular) | Xantcha (group slug) | Gitrog (non-combo)
Zur (cycling) | Yennett (spyhinx control) | Geist (1v1) | Kamahl (1v1) | Grenzo (goblins) | Bolas (discard)
Kadena (morph) | Kenrith (legendary activated abilities) | Nethroi (reanimator) | Xyris (combat tricks) | Ayula (bears)
Jodah (flavor text tribal) | Slivers/Atogs/Allies/Spirits (5c tribal modular) | Xantcha (group slug) | Gitrog (non-combo)
Zur (cycling) | Yennett (spyhinx control) | Geist (1v1) | Kamahl (1v1) | Grenzo (goblins) | Bolas (discard)
Kadena (morph) | Kenrith (legendary activated abilities) | Nethroi (reanimator) | Xyris (combat tricks) | Ayula (bears)
If you are playing it fair it isnt a good card tbh. If you are doiing for infinite mana sure can be put any creature into play thing, but so can Chord of Calling Finale of Devastation and such effects
You already described the card's characteristics very well, so let's look at some strategies that can take good advantage of it:
- strategies that care about the graveyard (e.g. Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Meren of Clan Nel Toth);
- strategies that care about manipulating the top of your library (e.g. Illuna, Apex of Wishes);
- strategies that care about flashing creatures (e.g. Rashmi, Eternities Crafter, Yeva, Nature's Herald)
- toolboxing, in other words, manipulating your deck and draws so you always have the answer you need when you need it (e.g. Prime Speaker Vannifar).
Commander decks
Deck | Power |
---|---|
Inferno | 5 |
Devoured by Dragons | 5 |
Midnight Hunt | 6 |
Hidden Dragon | 6 |
Chaos Reigns | 6 |
Draconic Onslaught | 7 |
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DirkGently My wins are unconditional
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Giving everything pseudo-flash is really neat. It means you can hold up stuff, threaten blocks that could be potentially devastating, minimize board wipes, etc. I kinda wish that effect was available on a commander, tbh, it seems like it'd be a lot of fun.
Hmm, maybe I should build Yeva...
Hmm, maybe I should build Yeva...
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
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ISBPathfinder Bebopin
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I LOVE the concept of this card. But I constantly have this issue that where it would be best tends to be decks with a lot of reactions. Decks with lots of reactions though are almost never creature heavy decks. If and when you can keep that Aetherspouts / Counterspell up but also spin a creature into play as needed it sounds great, the problem is the decks with lots of interactions are kind of never the decks with high creature density.
The one commander I can come up with that it would maybe work in would be Yeva, Nature's Herald. I really wish I could get this effect in multicolored with green because thats sort of where I would maybe want to run this card.
The one commander I can come up with that it would maybe work in would be Yeva, Nature's Herald. I really wish I could get this effect in multicolored with green because thats sort of where I would maybe want to run this card.
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I'm not really a fan of Vivien's Arkbow. Best-case scenario, you discard a card and pay to maybe get a creature with CMC X at instant speed, which is roughly equivalent to playing it as if it had flash. Looking through that lens, Arkbow looks pretty respectable. Other sources of flash are usually more expensive, such as Yeva, Nature's Herald, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, and Vedalken Orrery. Giving your creatures flash for only two mana is pretty sweet, since you can hold your mana up for other stuff. Best-case scenario, Arkbow also provides some card filtering, turning excess lands into more creatures.
The issue with Arkbow is it is rather high-variance. If you pay X mana and get an X-drop creature, that's great. If you spend that mana and get a cheaper creature (or even worse, miss entirely), that's a pretty significant tempo loss... potentially enough to totally negate any tempo gains you got from playing your creatures at instant speed in the first place. If you want to reduce the chance of missing, you either need to run a very high density of creatures or have a lot of mana to pump into it.
Anyway, the decks I could see it being useful in would be deck with a high creature density that also run a lot of instants or other mana sinks. If your deck doesn't mind discarding cards, that can also mitigate the cost - either have recursion (like Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, or Life from the Loam) or just have enough card advantage to offset it. Alternatively, use topdeck manipulation to guarantee a hit - Sensei's Divining Top, Mirri's Guile, or Hua Tuo, Honored Physician.
The issue with Arkbow is it is rather high-variance. If you pay X mana and get an X-drop creature, that's great. If you spend that mana and get a cheaper creature (or even worse, miss entirely), that's a pretty significant tempo loss... potentially enough to totally negate any tempo gains you got from playing your creatures at instant speed in the first place. If you want to reduce the chance of missing, you either need to run a very high density of creatures or have a lot of mana to pump into it.
Anyway, the decks I could see it being useful in would be deck with a high creature density that also run a lot of instants or other mana sinks. If your deck doesn't mind discarding cards, that can also mitigate the cost - either have recursion (like Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, or Life from the Loam) or just have enough card advantage to offset it. Alternatively, use topdeck manipulation to guarantee a hit - Sensei's Divining Top, Mirri's Guile, or Hua Tuo, Honored Physician.
I guess a UG deck with all the creature based counterspells. I hate to say it, but Chulane, Teller of Tales is probably really good at this. And Derevi.ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑3 years agoI LOVE the concept of this card. But I constantly have this issue that where it would be best tends to be decks with a lot of reactions. Decks with lots of reactions though are almost never creature heavy decks. If and when you can keep that Aetherspouts / Counterspell up but also spin a creature into play as needed it sounds great, the problem is the decks with lots of interactions are kind of never the decks with high creature density.
The one commander I can come up with that it would maybe work in would be Yeva, Nature's Herald. I really wish I could get this effect in multicolored with green because thats sort of where I would maybe want to run this card.
Maybe Kruphix, God of Horizons ..
I kinda like Surrak Dragonclaw. Temur flash creatures sounds decent. and Arkbow would totally work.
I already have a temur deck so doubt I will want to do something like this.
Maybe Marath, Will of the Wild is a good option - you leave mana up to activate marath, activate arkbow.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme
- darrenhabib
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No, Vivien's Arkbow is not a good card. If you are just doing blind mana sinks, then it's a terrible card as you have to discard. There are better cards that allow you to sink mana into without card disadvantage. There is better discard outlets as well.
If you specifically want mana sinks AND discard outlet then I guess Arkbow is what you want, but I feel this is a rare combination.
Why I say that is discard normally suggests reanimation which is trying to cheat in things for a lot less mana than you normally have. So why would you also have a deck that is looking for mana sinks?
And this is why its hard to find a proper home for this card imo.
If you specifically want mana sinks AND discard outlet then I guess Arkbow is what you want, but I feel this is a rare combination.
Why I say that is discard normally suggests reanimation which is trying to cheat in things for a lot less mana than you normally have. So why would you also have a deck that is looking for mana sinks?
And this is why its hard to find a proper home for this card imo.
I don't think it's a stellar card. I think it needs the right kind of deck, and it's obviously not good enough for some environments.
I see it as a potentially decent card in creature-dense decks (like, 30+ creatures) that want card parity out of their late game land draws. The tension is whether you discard your mana sources or play them, and that depends on the curve of the deck.
I think that if this card was ever a go-to, it means that some other part of your deck is failing: either you can't effectively spend mana because your curve is too low (which will result in not much good from the Arkbow anyway), or most of your cards are situational (leading you to discard them and pay into Arkbow), or that you don't draw enough cards leaving you in topdeck mode (which Arkbow is an out for; you can just pitch a land and spend all your mana to find something new).
All that said, I'm fond of the card. I just don't find myself playing it often.
I see it as a potentially decent card in creature-dense decks (like, 30+ creatures) that want card parity out of their late game land draws. The tension is whether you discard your mana sources or play them, and that depends on the curve of the deck.
I think that if this card was ever a go-to, it means that some other part of your deck is failing: either you can't effectively spend mana because your curve is too low (which will result in not much good from the Arkbow anyway), or most of your cards are situational (leading you to discard them and pay into Arkbow), or that you don't draw enough cards leaving you in topdeck mode (which Arkbow is an out for; you can just pitch a land and spend all your mana to find something new).
All that said, I'm fond of the card. I just don't find myself playing it often.
I've had some success with the Bow in midrange stompy decks, paired with things like Cream of the Crop, Sylvan Library, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the aforementioned cards (not necessarily all together). I've tried it in Gahiji, Honored One Beasts, Kaseto, Orochi Archmage Snakes, and Captain Sisay Legends.
V/R
Treamayne
Treamayne
I run it in my reki, history of kamigawa legendary tribal deck. It's actually extremely good in that build. On the other hand, I am not running yeva and am drawing cards like crazy. Tossing a not particularly useful legendary to spin the wheel is pretty good in there!
Echoing others' comments, I like this card in theory, but in practice it has always been really mediocre. Even in decks when it should be good (Meren, for example), I have always found it to be pretty bad, as it isn't good or effective enough at what it does to be played over probably a dozen other cards that do similar things but which are more reliable or cost efficient. I would also rather simply play a card which is broadly good on its own merits rather than being maybe occasionally good when you happen to get it into play with some other set-up cards.
So, to answer the quesiton, in my opinion, Vivien's Arkbow is not a good card.
So, to answer the quesiton, in my opinion, Vivien's Arkbow is not a good card.
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.