Combat damage tribal - Brainstorming

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I've had this brew idea percolating in my head for months now and figured I'd share some of it and see if anyone has any good ideas.

I am fairly sure this deck is going to need to be 5c with Najeela as the commander but it might be 4c with tymna/someone.

The gist of the concept is saboteur tribal (mostly) - dudes who draw cards or do some useful effect when they connect. Here's the partial list of dudes I'm thinking of:
Ramp package ideas (probably some more I am missing there, thought there was one that makes treasures on combat damage)
Anyone have commander thoughts? I could probably just go tymna+tana with no blue I guess, as that'd make really maximal use of the combat damage stuff.

I could also try to shave a bunch of colors and do Marchesa, but I think the green ramp spells that benefit from attacking are absolutely hugely good.

I do think having a raft of counterspells and removal and generally interactive stuff like Eerie Interlude and Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection would really benefit this deck, especially if I were to want to toss in something like Eternal Witness and Skullwinder for possible Cryptic Command soft-locks.

And any other card ideas?

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Post by Serenade » 3 years ago

Storm the Vault // Vault of Catlacan might be the treasure-producer of which you were thinking. Or Prying Blade. Or Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale.

Ongoing Investigation could generate lots of permanents.
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa is not bad for this.
I will also say that Torpor Orb effects go well with this since most of the creatures do not have ETBs.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa is not bad for this.
I will also say that Torpor Orb effects go well with this since most of the creatures do not have ETBs.
In general I think hatebears can fill out the slots a bit; toss like Hushwing Gryff and Hushbringer, maybe Aven Mindcensor. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is pretty dang good with a sword and creates a lot of evasion.

The hard part with this deck I think is balancing all the pieces and making the manabase work.

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa is not bad for this.
I will also say that Torpor Orb effects go well with this since most of the creatures do not have ETBs.
In general I think hatebears can fill out the slots a bit; toss like Hushwing Gryff and Hushbringer, maybe Aven Mindcensor. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is pretty dang good with a sword and creates a lot of evasion.

The hard part with this deck I think is balancing all the pieces and making the manabase work.
I essentially did a bant version of this with Sidar Kondo and Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix... It's a hot mess. I think I need to find a way to smooth it out.

At a certain point, 'attack with small dudes' is a losing battle.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I did something similar in Daxos of Meletis, then Medomai the Ageless when it was printed but there are a lot more combat damage triggers in more colors now. wu alone requires a lot of non-creature support such as Bident of Thassa effects, but opens space for more interaction. For example, my gameplan with Medomai is primarily to use it as a draw, uptap effect and play a lot more interaction. I don't know if this is the route you're looking for, and using Medomai for repeatable timewarps can draw ire unless those turns go quickly.

I also run a similar deck with Tymna the Weaver and Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix with a lot of 1-2 CMC evasive creatures, so that may be a viable commander combination. I don't play many non-creatures in that deck, but the colors open a lot of options in terms of interaction. An item of note is that I think I run 33 lands and no ramp, but the odds of drawing +2-3 cards/turn from Tymna lets me hit my land drops most of the time. If you wanted to skip blue, the aforementioned Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa would be a good bwg partner with Tymna.

The other similar build that I've had success with was hatebears in Marisi, Breaker of the Coil, using evasive creatures to force attacks at not me (also limiting blockers), and effects like Gaddock Teeg to protect the board and limit outs. I didn't have that many saboteur effects excluding Marisi, so I'm not sure if this is quite what you wanted either.

Honestly, I think that wub is probably the best 3 color combination for this: to include Tymna, Medomai (depending on curve), Augury Adept, Cephalid Constable, etc. There's a lot of evasion in those colors. If tymna not in the partner pair, then maybe gub for mana untapping effects, Edric, Spymaster of Trest and some of the better saboteur effects.

I agree that Torpor Orb effects make sense here, but because hatebears in general work well with Tymna maybe Hushwing Gryff?

EDIT: RE: winning with small creatures
As long as you include gw, then cards like Beastmaster Ascension, hoof and Crescendo of War can be effective finishers.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Haldan, Avid Arcanist and Pako, Arcane Retriever for Temur colored commanders.

Haste elements seem important for maximizing value. Anger combined with Survival of the Fittest. Rhythm of the Wild

Kenrith, the Returned King could be a viable commander option as you can give haste to your creatures.
Samut, Voice of Dissent for Naya.

Daxos of Meletis, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Fallen Shinobi, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Marisi, Breaker of the Coil, Cartographer's Hawk, Cephalid Constable, Medomai the Ageless, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Odric, Master Tactician, Ohran Frostfang, Rootwater Thief, Soltari Guerrillas, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Thief of Sanity, Azra Oddsmaker.

If you were to play more instant/sorcery to go along with Dreadhorde Arcanist then Surrakar Spellblade.

When playing a more small-ball attacking deck you want some number of ways to protect/evasion. Reconnaissance, Iroas, God of Victory,
Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner depending on creature base.

Bident of Thassa, Coastal Piracy, Reconnaissance Mission as further combat advantages.



As a side note if you do run Najeela then your general "saboteur tribal" will get massively outshadowed by her ability and comboing with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Sword of Feast and Famine, Nature's Will, Druid's Repository a lot of games. Been there, done that.
Then you'll start falling into this mindset of taking out cards for cheaper disruption, etc, and then your original idea will just seem bad.

I would try and run another commander(s) and aim for more like a casual outlook.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Haldan, Avid Arcanist and Pako, Arcane Retriever for Temur colored commanders.

Haste elements seem important for maximizing value. Anger combined with Survival of the Fittest. Rhythm of the Wild

Kenrith, the Returned King could be a viable commander option as you can give haste to your creatures.
Samut, Voice of Dissent for Naya.

Daxos of Meletis, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Fallen Shinobi, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Marisi, Breaker of the Coil, Cartographer's Hawk, Cephalid Constable, Medomai the Ageless, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Odric, Master Tactician, Ohran Frostfang, Rootwater Thief, Soltari Guerrillas, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Thief of Sanity, Azra Oddsmaker.

If you were to play more instant/sorcery to go along with Dreadhorde Arcanist then Surrakar Spellblade.

When playing a more small-ball attacking deck you want some number of ways to protect/evasion. Reconnaissance, Iroas, God of Victory,
Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner depending on creature base.

Bident of Thassa, Coastal Piracy, Reconnaissance Mission as further combat advantages.



As a side note if you do run Najeela then your general "saboteur tribal" will get massively outshadowed by her ability and comboing with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Sword of Feast and Famine, Nature's Will, Druid's Repository a lot of games. Been there, done that.
Then you'll start falling into this mindset of taking out cards for cheaper disruption, etc, and then your original idea will just seem bad.

I would try and run another commander(s) and aim for more like a casual outlook.
Azra Oddsmaker is sick, and on my list but forgot about it :)

I think you might be right about Najeela, Kenrith might be a better option as he provides evasion and pump and such.

I am intending to be pretty instant/sorcery heavy since clearing blockers out with removal is the most flexible thing to do I think. So Surrakar Spellblade seems really good.

Appreciate the ideas!

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Soltari Champion Soltari Visionary is the OG for this build. Have to include him. You also have Shadowmage Infiltrator to look into. Grenzo, Havoc Raiser and Marisi, Breaker of the Coil seem like powerful includes.

If you're going for all these attacks, then Aurelia, the Warleader and Gahiji, Honored One seem like potential includes as well.

edit: wrong Soltari

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Post by Dragonlover » 3 years ago

My Virtus & Gorm deck is sort of based around this, the idea being make each blocking decision as hard for opponents as possible so that the right morphs get through.

If I was going to expand the idea past two colours I'd be tempted to go for Saskia the Unyielding as the commander. Either way, I recommend having some stuff that manifests your creatures, just for that extra bit of confusion to your foes.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I attempted something vaguely similar to this for a while, various Tymna permutations. I quite quickly backed off saboteurs and just went with cheap evasive guys as they connect easier. Saboteurs don't tend to be the best in combat, and this circumvented needing to get them to hit and just let me draw out the wazoo with Tymna. If you do stick with saboteurs, you'll need to pack evasion as an extra module. Something I never got right, or found boring as hell and didn't pursue enough of, was adequate finishing. I see Beastmaster Ascension was already brought up, that seems appropriate.

If you go Tymna from the command zone, Empyrial Plate is a brutally good vanilla pump equipment. In that case, probably just complement her with Kydele (or Thrasios). Blue has the nicest evasion, green has the nicest finishing.
 
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

I'd cut the colors down and play a lot of unblockable/shadow creatures. Cards like larceny and coastal piracy, etc are probably better than focusing on individually powerful saboteur triggers.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

So the thing to remember about jamming a small selection of things that enable draws on combat damage (e.g. bident) is that it makes your attack surface different. It's a very different play texture to have 20 guys who individually always do something if they connect to 20 guys that do nothing without a support piece.

The idea here is to always be drawing fire and to be able to win without needing to commit as hard to the board (just play two guys and start drawing cards vs. play two guys and an enabler).

One small idea I've also considered is using less explosive but harder to interrupt overrun effects; more sorin and Gideon ally of zendikar less beastmaster ascension, maybe even instant speed tricks.

I'm thinking about not using equipment either so as to not open up that attack surface. Forcing them to interact with the individually strong saboteurs and then defending them.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Whatever ends up working for you, just keep some form of pump in mind. My Tymna+Kydele didn't pack pump, and routinely fizzled out as pecking at people with bears, even if the bears kinda did stuff and drew plenty of cards, just wasn't impactful enough and I'd quickly get left behind.
 
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I think what I'm gonna try is jamming a package of pumping planeswalkers.
Or something like that. Probably some good ones I'm missing there and some of those likely aren't good enough.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

If you go the route of planeswalker based anthems, I'll echo some of the recommendations above to trying to include Marisi, Breaker of the Coil if colors allow. Goad forces attacks to be a players, protecting planeswalkers from combat damage and the primary avenue for them to be destroyed.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

You've got a lot of combat damage triggers, what about simple attack triggers? Druids' Repository and Sword of the Animist have done good things for me in the past and could be great in this shell, especially if you end up in 5c (although from memory you have access to a pretty great land base, so these might be redundant after all) (edit: and I didn't even read the OP, what a doof lol).
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think what I'm gonna try is jamming a package of pumping planeswalkers.
sorin, lord of innistrad
sorin, solemn visitor
gideon, ally of zendikar
nissa, voice of zendikar
elspeth, knight-errant
ajani, adversary of tyrants
ajani, wise counselor
Or something like that. Probably some good ones I'm missing there and some of those likely aren't good enough.
Seems a little underwhelming at first, but Basri Ket could be good in this scope. All abilities are relevant, you get options for protection in the first, going wide in the second and a permanent combination of going wide and tall in the ultimate, which is reasonably within reach of hitting. Plus that second ability seems custom made for Beastmaster Ascension. I have no experience myself with him, but I'm planning to test him in a Tayam, Luminous Enigma deck I'm brewing.

Also, obligatory mention of multiple combat phase cards is obligatory. Could get a bit yawnworthy, but there's options, so they ought to be mentioned.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Double striking is obviously good with combat damage triggers, and if you're on anthems of any kind it just gets better. I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if it's redundant, but make sure you don't overlook some of the better sources like Berserkers' Onslaught, True Conviction, Odric, Lunarch Marshal, Silverblade Paladin, and Savage Beating.

Extra combats also stellar with combat damage triggers, so that makes Savage Beating extra double super great here. If you wind up with red and white pips in your deck you'll also probably want to include Aurelia, the Warleader and some of the other great extra combat cards like Seize the Day, Relentless Assault, and Aggravated Assault.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
So the thing to remember about jamming a small selection of things that enable draws on combat damage (e.g. bident) is that it makes your attack surface different. It's a very different play texture to have 20 guys who individually always do something if they connect to 20 guys that do nothing without a support piece.

The idea here is to always be drawing fire and to be able to win without needing to commit as hard to the board (just play two guys and start drawing cards vs. play two guys and an enabler).
This is all true, but I think there are some advantages to the other style worth considering. First, you can get more dudes, often evasive, and cheaper if you are relying on a token producer + a saboteur anthem like Reconnaissance Mission, Larceny , Five-Alarm Fire, or what have you. For example, I have a Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive saboteur deck that doesn't go the usual route of packing the deck full of 20 Scroll Thief variants, some infect, and some proliferate, but instead looks to go wide with something like Sai, Master Thopterist, Master of Waves, Mirrodin Besieged, etc. then stick a Bident of Thassa or Sharding Sphinx or what have you + Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive. Second, that style leaves you more room in the deck for pump and utility since you're generating multiple critters from individual cards. Since my Tetsuko deck relies on evasion via 1 power or toughness, I put in power-only anthems like Crown of Doom and Signal Pest, but without that restriction you could get some much better anthems/lords/PWs. Just food for thought.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
This is all true, but I think there are some advantages to the other style worth considering.
It is definitely not for me, I've had that deck a few times already. :)

Lots of other good thoughts, thanks guys!

I think Aurelia and some extra combat step guys is a pretty good idea. Hard to interact with which is good.

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Post by Mimicvat » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
So the thing to remember about jamming a small selection of things that enable draws on combat damage (e.g. bident) is that it makes your attack surface different. It's a very different play texture to have 20 guys who individually always do something if they connect to 20 guys that do nothing without a support piece.
Long time "saboteur tribal" player, since before Tymna dropped so I've had this style of deck in some form or another for like 6-7 years.

I believe the minmax "cheap fliers and Coastal Piracy effect" route is much stronger than the "each dude pulls their own weight" path. This is because of how the costs scale. It's not a case of "20 self sufficient dudes or 20 flying nerds", but rather you might have one or two 3+cmc guys with their own built in triggers and if you are lucky, built in evasion (many don't), or you might quickly have 6+ flying men drawing off of a bident of thassa, replenishing themselves, growing the board state and drawing enough interaction to keep them on the board. One of these strategies is fast, snowballs into a dangerous board state, and sustains itself with lots of draw. The other is slower, deals less damage and gives you far less payoff- this is coming from a guy who has deliberately run that style for a long time and still loves it!

You also might have 6 one mana dudes not triggering anything, so it's not pure upside, but I find the risk is more than outweighed by the huge consistency of the deck one it gets one of the 5+ piracy enablers on the table. If your enabler is in the command zone, the risk is very minimal. What I do like about the clunky style is that often, you can have several unique or different effects every turn instead of simply "draw a card". You lose a ton of power and consistently, but get more varied gameplay. If you don't want to go the efficient way, would still hugely recommend piracy enablers for your deck. If you are trying to get combat damage for triggers, stacking various on-hit effects for maximum impact is the way to go.

If you want to play with the Raging Bulls rather than the Flying Men , have found Tymna + X to be a winning combination. In my case I have played Tymna + Kraum for a long time, with the red in the deck being mainly for sunforger. These decks like equipment, and Sunforger is one of the best equipment there is! I also have a less fleshed out Tymna + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa, which runs hatebears and uses Kondo+Tymna's abilities to let them draw cards.

However, I've also been experimenting with two alternatives - Inniaz, the Gale Force or Ukkima, Stalking Shadow + Cazur, Ruthless Stalker. Both are going the flying men route, but the Cazur deck could be adapted to be either style. Cazur in particular is a sleeper for this style IMO, as getting +1 counters (or especially more than one through various synergies) can turn your card draw engines into win conditions quickly and without using the same hoofmaster ascension route as every other green deck
The idea here is to always be drawing fire and to be able to win without needing to commit as hard to the board (just play two guys and start drawing cards vs. play two guys and an enabler).
Tymna + Kraum or Tymna + Ludevic gets a massive thumbs up from me. You really need the blue for saboteurs to have enough value, and the red gets you sunforger which is fantastic for defending a boardstate as well as simultaneously improving your threats.
One small idea I've also considered is using less explosive but harder to interrupt overrun effects; more sorin and Gideon ally of zendikar less beastmaster ascension, maybe even instant speed tricks.
This deck will be slow without needing to add slower win conditions. You will lack the board state (or untapped board state) to protect planeswalkers and get more than one emblem off them (or whatever other value) and likely lack the card draw to take advantage of instant-speed pumps. Pumps would need more raw draw than this style enables and more bodies to scale up for EDH - plus pumps that are actually good enough are not common sadly.
I'm thinking about not using equipment either so as to not open up that attack surface. Forcing them to interact with the individually strong saboteurs and then defending them.
The 'individually strong saboteurs' will all likely die to the same removal as the creatures in the flying men route, though we have a few kinda interesting ones lately. I'd look to open up the field to "fatties that draw" rather than "fatties that draw through combat" to get a few creatures like Niv-Mizzet, Parun or Nezahal, Primal Tide. Investing in protection for these is worth it and they will likely draw more than combat trigger creatures, at the very least replacing themselves in these cases when the likely non-creature removal is cast on them.

Personally I think equipment is one of the few advantages the 'few strong' approach has over the 'many weak,' as it allows you to really build up those threats again as they go down to removal. Better to equip a sunforger to Nezahal than it is to put it on a Flying Man.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think what I'm gonna try is jamming a package of pumping planeswalkers.
Or something like that. Probably some good ones I'm missing there and some of those likely aren't good enough.
This will struggle enormously without the body count to make their pump effects worthwhile. I think you'd be better with either planeswalker + flying men, or "individually strong saboteurs" + equipment, auras or some such that provide individually better power boosts. Going for "small creature count, low impact wide spectrum pumps" seems like the worst of both worlds!
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Post by knight_seb » 3 years ago

Hello, i'm working on a saboteur deck too. I'm still hesitating with the tokens/coastal piracy VS the guys who connect. However, what are your suggestions to give haste to your creatures to get immediate value from them doing combat damage or attack trigger ? In cas of the big guys case, it could be done with equipment but I can't find something for the token case.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

knight_seb wrote:
3 years ago
Hello, i'm working on a saboteur deck too. I'm still hesitating with the tokens/coastal piracy VS the guys who connect. However, what are your suggestions to give haste to your creatures to get immediate value from them doing combat damage or attack trigger ? In cas of the big guys case, it could be done with equipment but I can't find something for the token case.
Flash em out on end step, or pop an army in a can like chasm skulker, or reanimate one like Myr Battlesphere.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Love this topic.

Regarding Generals:

I think Tymna the Weaver + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa is a really good combination. They helm my Shadowborn Apostles pile (link), and they definitely do work (despite the fact that Apostles are 1-mana do nothings until you acquire a mass of them). Tymna needs no introduction, but I think Kondo is underappreciated.

But, they're not the only combination; you could also do Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper/Tymna, or even Ikra/Ludevic. (But seriously, maybe not Ludevic, too symmetrical for my taste.)

I think you might need to shave down the colours; there's stuff in every colour for this (u/b ninjas, tymna, Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner, Ohran Viper and Ohran Frostfang, etc. etc.). I believe blue or white to be the weakest saboteur colour (ninjas and cards like Tomebound Lich/Shadowmage Infiltrator and some dimir specters notwithstanding).

If you're not going to run Kondo... For the unblue general of choice? I humbly nominate Saskia the Unyielding. If you're doing all you can to connect, you might as well really connect.

For the unwhite general, Tana, the Bloodsower + Silas Renn, Seeker Adept are both saboteurs, (though, Silas will need some build-around to be acceptable).

Maybe if you went unred, you could build Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa + Silas Renn, Seeker Adept?

Regarding the 99:

I think there are a bunch of cards that indirectly help you. Ohran Frostfang is obviously tight, but Bow of Nylea also helps: you put defending players in a double bind where they have to either block and suffer deathtouch, or they have to let things through. Often, saboteurs just get blocked.

While I don't think Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner makes an interesting general, I think she's a great no-block enabler and can be some powerful draw if you end up playing a lot of low-to-the-ground creatures (which it looks like you probably will).

If you're connecting a lot, Bloodforged Battle-Axe is exciting, and could be useful if you go with blue and use Storm the Vault // Vault of Catlacan (as a heap of artifacts).

Finally, have you considered cards with Myriad? Herald of the Host could be exciting, and Blade of Selves is pretty wild.

Finally, just going to throw cards out there that I think are totally baller: Driven // Despair, Lightning Reaver, Necropolis Regent, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Quietus Spike, Sakiko, Mother of Summer and Storrev, Devkarin Lich.
Last edited by Sinis 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I'm giving some thought to powering it down a hair and going with something like Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludevic's Opus - cutting out Green takes away some options but it also simplifies mana and focuses the list.

The other pairing that's really standing out to me is Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist and Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa -- dropping Sidar and then bombing people feels like a really powerful play.

The cards I am really the most interested in are the red guys:
And Mimicvat made some really good points on why more equipment and less planeswalkers makes sense; jeskai swords feels like it might be a fun deck. The only two black cards I am really pulled towards are Rankle, Master of Pranks and Mindblade Render and both of those I think I can probably do without.

I have a lot of stuff to think about and really appreciate everyone's insight. :)

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I'm giving some thought to powering it down a hair and going with something like Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludevic's Opus - cutting out Green takes away some options but it also simplifies mana and focuses the list.
10/10 Would recommend. I've loved em ever since I built them. Granted, combat damage tribal with them would be wildly different from my nonsense Bruse/Kraum list, but I think they'd work great. Kraum is sneaky good with that card draw and hasty beats. Bruse giving him and/or saboteurs double strike and lifelink seems great, and you'd be in colors to flicker him a bit or get extra combats if you wanted to load up on his trigger.
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